Sacrament of Marrige

[archonnx]

I was not sure wher to post this, so forgie me if i am in the wrong room.
I will keep it simple, a somtimes Catholic(thought he says he does want to be Catholic) is getting married in the babtist Church without a dispensation, I am aginst the marrige for more than one reason, but should i attend the wedding it’s self? I feel like my mouth says one thing and my actions are saying another as in supporting it. I was so so on going befor but now they do not have a dispensation and that is making me think i am not going, though i would go to the reception, just to support my Brother.
Well what does everyone think?

 

[Aramis]

Think of it this way:

Will they take the right message from your not being there?
Will the rest of the community?

Just because a marriage (Civil or non-Catholic/Orthodox) isn’t a sacramental marriage, Catholics have long attended same as a sign of support for marriage as a civil institution, and as supportive friends.

 

[1ke]

A **Catholic **attempting an **invalid **marriage is committing a gravely wrong act. If done with full knowledge and free will, it is a mortal sin.

From the Catechism, it is clear that we ourselves sin when we participate in someone else’s sin or gravely wrong acts:

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
• by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
• by protecting evil-doers.

You have an obligation to tell him what he is able to attempt is an invalid marriage-- and attending it would be supporting and participating in it.

You should talk to your priest.

 

[1ke]

Think of it this way:

Will they take the right message from your not being there?
Will the rest of the community?

He should certainly tell them why he will not be able to attend.

Just because a marriage (Civil or non-Catholic/Orthodox) isn’t a sacramental marriage, Catholics have long attended same as a sign of support for marriage as a civil institution, and as supportive friends.

Non-Catholics are not bound by Catholic Canon Law. The case here is that the person attempting the marriage is a Catholic. Therefore, he is required to marry in the Church following the Catholic form of marriage unles he applies for and receives a dispensation.

Catholics can attend non-Catholic marriages because non-Catholics are not attempting to marry invalidly (assuming the marriage is not an attempt to remarry after divorce.)

And, to add a correction to your above statement, non-Catholic Christians (those validly baptized) do indeed have sacramental marriages.

 

[archonnx]

Thank you for the fast reply.
I have informed him of the sinfulness of his act and I have explained my reasons as to why i would not be able to attend.
At first I was going to go, I was told he was geting a dispensation. But it seems that the paper work was lost by a new priest that replaced the old one. Insted of re-applying he said he would just go and get married and then get it blessed after. Whitch I am not sure he will follow though with that.
I did say I would go to the reception just to support my Brother (he is my actual brother) but I in know whay indorse the wedding its self, without a dispensation. I was being slightly pusshed into going to the wedding but I think I have made my mind up, I jsut would not feel right in going Thank you again for you quick reply.

 

[dunscotus]

Let’s clear up an ambiguity here – KE’s response indicated that a Catholic cannot have a valid wedding performed by a non-Catholic. And the examples here seem to relate to individuals whose relationship to the Church is uncertain. In other words, they seem to relate to non-practising or lapsed Catholics.

But there are other possibilities, are there not? Consider the following two: (1) a person has not been baptised or confirmed as a Catholic, but intends to be; meanwhile and prior to either of those things happening, he wishes to get married in a non-Catholic ceremony; and (2) a person who has been baptised or confirmed as a Catholic, but has left the Church because he can no longer in good conscience profess to adhere to its beliefs and practices; he wishes to be married in a ceremony of whatever denomination he has joined.

In either instance, is a Catholic barred from attending the wedding?

 

[1ke]

But there are other possibilities, are there not? Consider the following two: (1) a person has not been baptised or confirmed as a Catholic, but intends to be; meanwhile and prior to either of those things happening, he wishes to get married in a non-Catholic ceremony; and

If the person is not a Catholic they are not bound by Catholic Canon Law. Someone who has already been enrolled in the Catechumenate should talk to their priest.

(2) a person who has been baptised or confirmed as a Catholic, but has left the Church because he can no longer in good conscience profess to adhere to its beliefs and practices; he wishes to be married in a ceremony of whatever denomination he has joined.

There are specific procedures that a Catholic must follow under canon law to leave the church by a formal act. Only if the person has made a formal act, as outlined by the Church, is he no longer a Catholic and no longer bound by Canon Law.

In that case, it is not the form of marriage which would dictate whether or not the person could attend. It would then be an individal assessment of whether or not the invitee would be giving scandal in attending.

Scandal is different from participating in a sinful act, but scandal is itself sinful.

 

[otjm]

It would then be an individal assessment of whether or not the invitee would be giving scandal in attending.

Scandal is different from participating in a sinful act, but scandal is itself sinful.

That is a correct assessment. However, it also may be worthwhile to think about who is being scandalized.

We live in a highly secular world, and one where catechesis, or lack thereof, is not soley within the purview of the Catholic Church.

Most people are not regular churchgoers of any persuasion, and for what I have seen of non-Catholic Christians, so many seem to be floaters - in one church and out of another - that I have to seriously question if most of them even know what their own church teaches about marriage, let alone knowing what the Catholic Church teaches.

So, who is it who will be scandalized - those who don’t even know what their own church teaches, and have no clue what the Catholic Church teaches? I seriously doubt most have any knowledge; and for the remainder, I would suspect many of them would think our teaching ridiculous - therefore, no scandal there. Note: I do not suggest that it is ridiculous; only that this would be their perception.

Other Catholics? If they are at the wedding, the answer to that should be self-explanatory.

The brother? If he has been told in charitible but plain English what he should be doing about the marriage, I doubt he is scandlized.

Catholics who are not attending the wedding? How are they even going to know? Oh, right, the possiblity exists that the one Catholic attending (but not the groom) is going around telling everyone what his brother did (no offense to the OP: I am not suggesting he would - just setting a possible scenario); the scandal then, I would submit, is not the attendance, but the gossiping.

I think we make a lot of asumptions that others (whoever they are) are going to be scandalized; but the reality is that most people a) don’t know you are Catholic; or b) don’t know that you might have a moral issue attending, or c) don’t accept that it is a moral issue. Thus, no scandal.

I am often left to think that the person who is scandalized by the issue is the Catholic who is asking if they should attend. But then, that’s just my take on it.

I would never suggest that anyone give scandal; but I think most often there is none given as it presumes a recipient where there is none.

 

[archonnx]

You all make valid points, as for myself, I can not attend because I would feel like im saying one thing and doing another. I feel as though I am saying, " It is wrong for you to do the wedding this way" but by my actions saying, “But hey I cant stop you so go on ahead and im here to support your choice”.
If my Brother would have made a clear choice like just say,: im leaving the Church and im going to be…(Enter answer)". Then I would have no real problem. He would not be under Church Law, but because he says he wants to remian Catholic and get marred and still be “good” with the Church, I as a faithful Catholic feel as though I have the duty to voice that it is not right and express that fact with my actions.
I keep thinking, if I truly belive this (the Catholic Church) and I love Christ as I say I do, then when the hard choices come I must be ready and able to stand on my Faith in Christ and his Church, even if it hurts at times. I am thankful though because, even though my Brother is doing what he is doing , I belive he undersatnds my decision.

 

[stbruno]

Personally, if this is a close family friend or even family member, for the sake of peace, I would just attend the reception, not the ceremony…and then keep an open dialog with your family member about considering having their marriage convalidated in the Catholic faith in the near future, so that they can once again resume receiving the sacraments in the Catholic church.

Pray on it!

 

[archonnx]

Personally, if this is a close family friend or even family member, for the sake of peace, I would just attend the reception, not the ceremony…and then keep an open dialog with your family member about considering having their marriage convalidated in the Catholic faith in the near future, so that they can once again resume receiving the sacraments in the Catholic church.

Pray on it!

That is what I am going to do, I am in no way going to just isolate myself from him. Thank you all for your help

 

[Windmill]

been there, done that. Two very close relatives each got married outside of the Church without a dispensation. i had to miss both ceremonies. it wasn’t easy, but i was confident that was the right message to send. they are both, now, looking into the possibility of rectifying their situations. the most important thing is to be charitable in your dealings. charity is not the same thing as friendliness. sometimes, charity involves fraternal correction - and that can be ill-received no matter how you nuance it. in the end, they will at least respect your resolve to follow through with your convictions. god may use that to bring them back later.

 

[archonnx]

been there, done that. Two very close relatives each got married outside of the Church without a dispensation. i had to miss both ceremonies. it wasn’t easy, but i was confident that was the right message to send. they are both, now, looking into the possibility of rectifying their situations. the most important thing is to be charitable in your dealings. charity is not the same thing as friendliness. sometimes, charity involves fraternal correction - and that can be ill-received no matter how you nuance it. in the end, they will at least respect your resolve to follow through with your convictions. god may use that to bring them back later.

I could not have said it better myself, and that, in the end, is all our hopes.

 

[dunscotus]

It sounds like the real issue here is the subjective intent (comined with objective actions) of the marrying party: if she (subjectively) has no intention of reconciling with the Church and obviously cannot affirm that she would raise her children in the Church and (objectively) chooses to join and be married in a different religious ceremony, then doesn’t that operate to remove her from the strictures of Canon law (and thus free her Catholic loved ones to attend the ceremony)? This in contrast to a Catholic who doesn’t want to have a Catholic ceremony but still intends to have a relationship with and a life within the church. Does this sound correct?
And one last thing: what is the juridical or doctrinal basis for the rule that would bar a Catholic from attendance on the grounds of scandal?
Thanks, guys!

 

[Windmill]

when I say i missed both ceremonies, that included the receptions where the supposedly-married couples were cheered and waved off as they started their fornicating relationship. Sorry to be so blunt about it, but that cuts to the chase in the matter.

I cried both days.