Sacrament of Reconciliation discussion

[brian24]

Currently, I am discussing with a gentleman online about the sacrament of reconciliation. He brought up Luke 18:10-14

10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

I have already mentioned Jesus’ command to confess to one another, the apostles being given the power to forgive sin, and the power to bind and loose given to Peter.
This seems to be a stumper for me.

 

[sw85]

Currently, I am discussing with a gentleman online about the sacrament of reconciliation. He brought up Luke 18:10-14

10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

I have already mentioned Jesus’ command to confess to one another, the apostles being given the power to forgive sin, and the power to bind and loose given to Peter.
This seems to be a stumper for me.

You seem to have left out an important detail. What, exactly, is stumping you?

 

[brian24]

That passage. It does appear to me that Jesus says this man who confessed directly to God and no-one else went home justified.

The only thing I can think is that he hadn’t instituted the sacrament of reconciliation yet.

 

[fhansen]

That passage. It does appear to me that Jesus says this man who confessed directly to God and no-one else went home justified.

The only thing I can think is that he hadn’t instituted the sacrament of reconciliation yet.

The most obvious difference to me is that the tax collector confessed, in humility, while the Pharisee did just the opposite.

 

[zz912]

Something you need to point out to him. At no point did Jesus do away with that man’s requirements for sin offerings as proscribed in the OT law. Your friend is reading his own interpretation into the verses to assume that both men did not offer up their sin offerings.

I would assume that that is exactly what they were doing, as they were praying at the Temple. That’s where they were done. That is also why the money changers set up shop there.

 

[fhansen]

The fact that the Church has been given this sacrament means that 1) we don’t merely pay lip service to the need and call for repentance, even after conversion/Baptism, but rather definitively acknowledge that need, and 2) we’ve been provided a formal means to carry it out, in case we’re not sure, like some denominations or believers seem to be.

 

[sw85]

That passage. It does appear to me that Jesus says this man who confessed directly to God and no-one else went home justified.

The only thing I can think is that he hadn’t instituted the sacrament of reconciliation yet.

There was no sacrament of confession prior to the Resurrection so the analogy hardly holds. It is clear, as has been said, that the issue was the standard one of Pharisaical legalism vs. genuine contrition. In other words, contrition is in the heart, not the words.

 

[jeannetherese]

Currently, I am discussing with a gentleman online about the sacrament of reconciliation. He brought up Luke 18:10-14

10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

I have already mentioned Jesus’ command to confess to one another, the apostles being given the power to forgive sin, and the power to bind and loose given to Peter.
This seems to be a stumper for me.

What a powerful passage from the gospel. Jesus contrasts the sin of pride with the virtue of humility. I’m not hearing him address confession here; perhaps I’m missing something.
when I think of the bible and confession I think of this passage from the gospel of Saint John (Douay-Rheims) in Chapter 20.
[21] He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. [24] Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. [25] The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

This is the note from that version explaining the gospel passage above
[23] Whose sins: See here the commission, stamped by the broad seal of heaven, by virtue of which the pastors of Christ’s church absolve repenting sinners upon their confession.
The link to the gospel is below.
drbo.org/chapter/50020.htm
May God bless you and your net buddy. Amen.

 

[TimothyH]

Even the most cursory read through the Bible shows that confession was integral to Jewish religion and worship. Confession was commanded by God. Confession was part of the law of Moses.

When a man is guilty in any of these, he shall confess the sin he has committed, and he shall bring his guilt offering to the LORD for the sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin. (Leviticus 5:5-6)

God commanded that the high priest was to make confession of all the sins of the people.

and Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins; and he shall put them upon the head of the goat, and send him away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. (Leviticus 16:20-21)

God commanded that ordinary people confess and make restitution of their sins

And the LORD said to Moses, "Say to the people of Israel, When a man or woman commits any of the sins that men commit by breaking faith with the LORD, and that person is guilty, he shall confess his sin which he has committed; and he shall make full restitution for his wrong, adding a fifth to it, and giving it to him to whom he did the wrong. (Numbers 5:5-7)

King David confessed.

**Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” ** (2 Samuel 12:13)

The people confessed in the Book of Nehemiah, after the return from exile at the beginning of the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

And the Israelites separated themselves from all foreigners, and stood and confessed their sins and the iniquities of their fathers. And they stood up in their place and read from the book of the law of the LORD their God for a fourth of the day; for another fourth of it they made confession and worshiped the LORD their God. (Nehemiah 9:2-3)

People confessed as part of the Jewish ritual “Mikveh” purification bath, what is called the “Baptism” of John the Baptist. The entire city of Jerusalem and the entire population of Judea confessed.

Now John wore a garment of camel’s hair, and a leather girdle around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
(Matthew 3:4-6)

Confession is all over the Bible. Confession was oral. The magicians in Ephesus all confessed orally.

Many also of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices. And a number of those who practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all (Acts 19:18:19)

Non-Catholics want it both ways. When it comes to sin they want it in the privacy of their own heart, but when it comes to confessing the name of the Lord or confessing that Jesus is Lord, it is always oral.

***because, if you confess with your lips *that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. (Romans 10:9-10)

How is it that confessing that Jesus is Lord is done with the lips, but confessing sin is not done with the lips? It seems like a double standard to me. You have to be public when you acknowledge that you love Jesus, but you don’t have to be public when you acknowledge that you have offended Jesus???

-Tim-

 

[Rudy_Baga]

In addition to all the points given, the teaching was not so much that the man went home justified having prayed directly to God. The teaching was to illustrate what the true spirit of repentance and contrition meant. Here is is directly contrasted to the sin of pride which is heaped on top of any sins confessed by the Pharisee. Hence no forgiveness was given.