Sacrament of Reconcilliation over the phone

[PeterT]

In these extraordinary times with public Masses being suspended and in many areas in the United States and throughout the world and people required to adhere to social distancing (three or six feet away from each other), what would it take in regards to the Catholic Church, be it the Pope, the Church’s Curia or each country’s Episcopal council (council of bishops) to allow the Sacrament of Reconciliation to be licit and valid if done over the phone instead of in-person as it currently needs to be done.

What would the formal process be for the Church to allow Catholics to receive a licit and valid Sacrament of Reconciliation over the phone (or even via video conferencing app). What would the bishops of the church and the Pope need to do?

Because right now it’s becoming very difficult to have Confession in the traditional valid manner.

 

[1ke]

what would it take in regards to the Catholic Church, be it the Pope, the Church’s Curia or each country’s Episcopal council (council of bishops) to allow the Sacrament of Reconciliation to be licit and valid if done over the phone

It isn’t possible.

 

[PeterT]

PeterT:

what would it take in regards to the Catholic Church, be it the Pope, the Church’s Curia or each country’s Episcopal council (council of bishops) to allow the Sacrament of Reconciliation to be licit and valid if done over the phone

It isn’t possible.

Why not?

The current form of the Sacrament developed from an early Middle Ages Celtic tradition and not from earlier Roman times. The rubrics of sacrament have changed and have been adapted for each era of time.

So why the Sacrament of Penance could not be allowed over the phone? Does any part of Divine Law prohibit it? If it’s only church law that prohibits it, then the church law could be — in theory — changed to allow it.

 

[stpurl]

Yes, Divine Law prohibits it.

The priest and penitent must be in physical proximity.

You know, we’ve had telephones since the late 19th century, and telegraphs before that. Heck, we’ve had paper and writing implements even longer.

But in the 19th century, when it seemed like half the Christian world and more was on the move, going weeks, months, and even years without the sight of a priest. . .nobody said, “Why don’t we just write our confessions to the priest?” “Why don’t we telegraph?” “Why don’t we call on the phone”?

The Church has had a lot of time to ponder. And over the last 50 years or so, the Church has made a lot of things ‘easier’. Easier to get a decree of nullify. Easier to get to church —holy days of obligation lessened or transferred to Sundays—fast before communion cut down from midnight to 3 hours to 1 hour—reception of communion made more frequent—the age of first communion brought down from age 14 or so to age 7– Lenten fast and abstinence made almost ‘nothing’ in most countries—confession itself downplayed because “mortal sin is almost impossible to commit” etc.

If there had been any possible way that confession by phone would have been valid or licit, it would have been established by the Church long ago

 

[PeterT]

Yes, Divine Law prohibits it.

The priest and penitent must be in physical proximity.

You know, we’ve had telephones since the late 19th century, and telegraphs before that. Heck, we’ve had paper and writing implements even longer.

But in the 19th century, when it seemed like half the Christian world and more was on the move, going weeks, months, and even years without the sight of a priest. . .nobody said, “Why don’t we just write our confessions to the priest?” “Why don’t we telegraph?” “Why don’t we call on the phone”?

The Church has had a lot of time to ponder. And over the last 50 years or so, the Church has made a lot of things ‘easier’. Easier to get a decree of nullify. Easier to get to church —holy days of obligation lessened or transferred to Sundays—fast before communion cut down from midnight to 3 hours to 1 hour—reception of communion made more frequent—the age of first communion brought down from age 14 or so to age 7– Lenten fast and abstinence made almost ‘nothing’ in most countries—confession itself downplayed because “mortal sin is almost impossible to commit” etc.

If there had been any possible way that confession by phone would have been valid or licit, it would have been established by the Church long ago

Which Divine Law prohibits it?

And no it wouldn’t necessarily have been established long ago because it would always be preferable for the priest and penitent be physical close proximity so the Church would not change the requirement unless very special circumstances demanded it.

 

[phil19034]

stpurl:

Yes, Divine Law prohibits it.

The priest and penitent must be in physical proximity.

You know, we’ve had telephones since the late 19th century, and telegraphs before that. Heck, we’ve had paper and writing implements even longer.

But in the 19th century, when it seemed like half the Christian world and more was on the move, going weeks, months, and even years without the sight of a priest. . .nobody said, “Why don’t we just write our confessions to the priest?” “Why don’t we telegraph?” “Why don’t we call on the phone”?

The Church has had a lot of time to ponder. And over the last 50 years or so, the Church has made a lot of things ‘easier’. Easier to get a decree of nullify. Easier to get to church —holy days of obligation lessened or transferred to Sundays—fast before communion cut down from midnight to 3 hours to 1 hour—reception of communion made more frequent—the age of first communion brought down from age 14 or so to age 7– Lenten fast and abstinence made almost ‘nothing’ in most countries—confession itself downplayed because “mortal sin is almost impossible to commit” etc.

If there had been any possible way that confession by phone would have been valid or licit, it would have been established by the Church long ago

Which Divine Law prohibits it?

And no it wouldn’t necessarily have been established long ago because it would always be preferable for the priest and penitent be physical close proximity so the Church would not change the requirement unless very special circumstances demanded it.

It goes against the Dogma of the Church, therefore cannot be changed.

2000 years ago, the Church dogmatically understood that remote communications (aka letters) could not be used for confession.

When telephones were invented, the Church dogmatically ruled that telephones were essentially the same thing as letters, only real time.

But till too remote for the laying of hands by the priest (even though he doesn’t have to touch you) to receive absolution from God via the priest acting in persona Christi

Furthermore, here’s another way to look at… the fact that NONE of the Orthodox Churches allow Confession over the Phone should strengthen the argument that using the phone for Confession goes against the Sacramental theology

 

[PeterT]

PeterT:

stpurl:

Yes, Divine Law prohibits it.

The priest and penitent must be in physical proximity.

You know, we’ve had telephones since the late 19th century, and telegraphs before that. Heck, we’ve had paper and writing implements even longer.

But in the 19th century, when it seemed like half the Christian world and more was on the move, going weeks, months, and even years without the sight of a priest. . .nobody said, “Why don’t we just write our confessions to the priest?” “Why don’t we telegraph?” “Why don’t we call on the phone”?

The Church has had a lot of time to ponder. And over the last 50 years or so, the Church has made a lot of things ‘easier’. Easier to get a decree of nullify. Easier to get to church —holy days of obligation lessened or transferred to Sundays—fast before communion cut down from midnight to 3 hours to 1 hour—reception of communion made more frequent—the age of first communion brought down from age 14 or so to age 7– Lenten fast and abstinence made almost ‘nothing’ in most countries—confession itself downplayed because “mortal sin is almost impossible to commit” etc.

If there had been any possible way that confession by phone would have been valid or licit, it would have been established by the Church long ago

Which Divine Law prohibits it?

And no it wouldn’t necessarily have been established long ago because it would always be preferable for the priest and penitent be physical close proximity so the Church would not change the requirement unless very special circumstances demanded it.

It goes against the Dogma of the Church, therefore cannot be changed.

2000 years ago, the Church dogmatically understood that remote communications (aka letters) could not be used for confession.

When telephones were invented, the Church dogmatically ruled that telephones were essentially the same thing as letters, only real time.

But till too remote for the laying of hands by the priest (even though he doesn’t have to touch you) to receive absolution from God via the priest acting in persona Christi

Furthermore, here’s another way to look at… the fact that NONE of the Orthodox Churches allow Confession over the Phone should strengthen the argument that using the phone for Confession goes against the Sacramental theology

Sorry, but I see no such dogma listed here in regards to the Sacrament of Penance:

https://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm#Dogma-XII-penance

(And FYI: the Catholic Church didn’t exist 2,000 years ago (20 AD). The Church came into existence on Pentecost around 30-33 AD. So we’ll have to wait about 10 more years to celebrate the Church’s 2,000 year anniversary. )

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m not sure how things are where you are, but I’m not seeing a problem with people going to confession in several dioceses. Confessions are still scheduled, whether it’s a case of going in a room and sitting six feet away from the priest, or going outside in the parking lot and doing a drive through or just sitting in chairs outside. Unless you are immunocompromised, it seems like confessions are going to be available.

 

[PeterT]

I’m not sure how things are where you are, but I’m not seeing a problem with people going to confession in several dioceses. Confessions are still scheduled, whether it’s a case of going in a room and sitting six feet away from the priest, or going outside in the parking lot and doing a drive through or just sitting in chairs outside. Unless you are immunocompromised, it seems like confessions are going to be available.

In California it’s more restricted. Now there’s a statewide shelter-in-place order so unless one is getting food and other necessities of life, or one is outdoors for the purpose of exercise, everyone is supposed to stay home, especially those who are high risk (65 years and older and those underlying chronic illnesses).

In my diocese, confessions are by appointment only which is not good for those who prefer an anonymous confession.

 

[Vico]

In these extraordinary times with public Masses being suspended and in many areas in the United States and throughout the world and people required to adhere to social distancing (three or six feet away from each other), what would it take in regards to the Catholic Church, be it the Pope, the Church’s Curia or each country’s Episcopal council (council of bishops) to allow the Sacrament of Reconciliation to be licit and valid if done over the phone instead of in-person as it currently needs to be done.

What would the formal process be for the Church to allow Catholics to receive a licit and valid Sacrament of Reconciliation over the phone (or even via video conferencing app). What would the bishops of the church and the Pope need to do?

Because right now it’s becoming very difficult to have Confession in the traditional valid manner.

There would have to be a just cause for confession outside of church or oratory, such as when men are on the battlefield. Reconciliation can be obtained other ways than individual confession.

CIC (Latin Canon Law)

Can. 960 Individual and integral confession and absolution constitute the only ordinary means by which a member of the faithful conscious of grave sin is reconciled with God and the Church. Only physical or moral impossibility excuses from confession of this type; in such a case reconciliation can be obtained by other means.

Can. 964 §1. The proper place to hear sacramental confessions is a church or oratory.

Can. 964 §3. Confessions are not to be heard outside a confessional without a just cause.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Can they not write you in as “Anonymous” on the schedule and have the priest put a blindfold on before you walk in?

 

[OraLabora]

The Sacrament of Reconciliation must be done in person to be sacramental. According to the Code of Canon Law:

Can. 964 §1. The proper place to hear sacramental confessions is a church or oratory.

§2. The conference of bishops is to establish norms regarding the confessional; it is to take care, however, that there are always confessionals with a fixed grate between the penitent and the confessor in an open place so that the faithful who wish to can use them freely.

§3. Confessions are not to be heard outside a confessional without a just cause.

“Outside a confessional” does not mean a telephone. It means in person, for instance in a priest’s office perhaps.

In any event the Law allows for the recitation of an act of perfect contrition as a substitute if sacramental confession is not available for grave reasons. You can make such an act if confession is not available for grave reasons (such as COVID-19). God is not a tyrant and He understands that we intend to avail ourselves of sacramental confession but cannot because of grave circumstances. Should you die before you can confess to a priest, it will count as a valid confession!

The same law of course requires that we confess sacramentally as soon as we can. I imagine the lines for the confessional will be quite long after this crisis is over! Until then, there’s an act of perfect contrition, and spiritual communion.

Also do note that none of these restrictions prevent the Viaticum or the Sacrament of anointing of the sick from being provided to the ill or dying, and it is still possible to receive communion individually outside of Mass (there is a proper liturgical formula for this), if you require it, assuming you are not in self-imposed or mandatory isolation.

So rest assured that sacramental grace is still going to be available if you are near death or are about to undergo risky surgery or are ill. And in the case of possible sudden death, do a good daily examination of conscience and say an act of perfect contrition at least once a day.

Catholicism is not a “gotcha” religion that tries to create loopholes to snare us into giving up salvation.

That is actually Satan’s modus operandi and by somehow convincing us that in this crisis we are doomed without the sacraments, Satan scores a big win.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

PeterT:

stpurl:

Yes, Divine Law prohibits it.

The priest and penitent must be in physical proximity.

You know, we’ve had telephones since the late 19th century, and telegraphs before that. Heck, we’ve had paper and writing implements even longer.

But in the 19th century, when it seemed like half the Christian world and more was on the move, going weeks, months, and even years without the sight of a priest. . .nobody said, “Why don’t we just write our confessions to the priest?” “Why don’t we telegraph?” “Why don’t we call on the phone”?

The Church has had a lot of time to ponder. And over the last 50 years or so, the Church has made a lot of things ‘easier’. Easier to get a decree of nullify. Easier to get to church —holy days of obligation lessened or transferred to Sundays—fast before communion cut down from midnight to 3 hours to 1 hour—reception of communion made more frequent—the age of first communion brought down from age 14 or so to age 7– Lenten fast and abstinence made almost ‘nothing’ in most countries—confession itself downplayed because “mortal sin is almost impossible to commit” etc.

If there had been any possible way that confession by phone would have been valid or licit, it would have been established by the Church long ago

Which Divine Law prohibits it?

And no it wouldn’t necessarily have been established long ago because it would always be preferable for the priest and penitent be physical close proximity so the Church would not change the requirement unless very special circumstances demanded it.

It goes against the Dogma of the Church, therefore cannot be changed.

2000 years ago, the Church dogmatically understood that remote communications (aka letters) could not be used for confession.

When telephones were invented, the Church dogmatically ruled that telephones were essentially the same thing as letters, only real time.

But till too remote for the laying of hands by the priest (even though he doesn’t have to touch you) to receive absolution from God via the priest acting in persona Christi

Furthermore, here’s another way to look at… the fact that NONE of the Orthodox Churches allow Confession over the Phone should strengthen the argument that using the phone for Confession goes against the Sacramental theology

Sorry, but I see no such dogma listed here in regards to the Sacrament of Penance:

Dogmas of the Catholic Church - Catholic Apologetics

(And FYI: the Catholic Church didn’t exist 2,000 years ago (20 AD). The Church came into existence on Pentecost around 30-33 AD. So we’ll have to wait about 10 more years to celebrate the Church’s 2,000 year anniversary. )

Fine. Maybe it’s not “dogma” but technically “doctrine.”

And not every single belief is written down in an easy to find list

 

[stpurl]

He also linked to the “Work of God’ apostolate which has supposed messages from Jesus to somebody (not clear from the website who). There was a message from Jesus to “my Child’ dated May 2018.

I don’t think that site has the same kind of authority as the Vatican web site.

 

[Kima]

Just contact your priest and he´ll make an appointment for you. That´s what I´ve done.

 

[Annie]

Maybe you and the priest could exercise 6 feet away from each other?

 

[twf]

The form of the sacrament can be changed by the Church… so yes, general absolution can be valid even if the individual penitent does not actually audibly confess his or her sins… but it is absolutely required for validity that a priest grant absolution to someone who is physically present.