Sacramental Marriage

[Br.Rich_SFO]

While I understand that such couples deserve and should receive extra counsel prior to marriage, how is such a refusal thought to be helpful?

“You want to normalize your situation and receive the graces of the sacrament? Nooooo – You go wallow in your sins for 3 or 4 more years. We’ll call when we’re ready for you.”
That does not seem to me to be the surest way to bring souls to Christ…?

tee

Maybe I should have said that a bit softer. It is up to the pastor to use his judgement, especially when he knows the person or family well. But any question of freedom to enter into Marriage without any outside force, must be considered.

 

[beckycmarie]

One must be in the state of grace to receive the sacrament of matrimony, so this, as well as any other gravely sinful condition or habit, must be resolved before the sacrament can take place.

What if a couple is not in the state of grace and then proceed with the sacrament of matrimony. Does this mean, at the end of the day, they didn’t receive the sacrament of matrimony?

 

[rinnie]

I am not sure so I would ask Father. This is what I can say I know for a fact. This is what Father told me, and trust me this is the truth. My daughter moved in with her boyfriend and it killed me.

I was told by other’s in my family I was judgemental, etc. My own Mother -in -Law told her not to worry about it. 9everyones doing it)

Well I worried about it. I am proud to say that was last year. THis year she is married and did get married in the church, Father knew.

I was not for a big wedding I felt it was a disgrace to God. Im not real old either. Not a bubba yet. Well she did have a beautiful wedding. (a big one because of her dad not me)

This is what Father told me.

IT IS NOT ABOUT THE SIN, ITS ABOUT CONFESSING THAT SIN, ADMITTING THE WRONG, AND DOING IT NO MORE.

NOW DID YOU GO TO CONFESSION. Maybe that’s what it means, or did he say you could indeed live together as brother and sister until the day of marriage…

I do not know what Father said to my daughter, (I hope he tore into her, just kidding) anyway she has been married now 3 months.

Now if you go to confession and still live together and have relations why bother. Why waste your time or the Priests. But if you go, and wait I guess its okay. Or take the chance of living together wrong and having you soul in mortal danger. I swear I wish I knew the right answer.

All I can say is the Blessed Mother was cried to until the day she did right by God. And I sure didn’t sleep until she did. I mean we can’t change the faith guys. even for our own kids or self. I sure wish we could sometimes. But Its what it is. A SIn.

 

[tee_eff_em]

It is up to the pastor to use his judgement, especially when he knows the person or family well. But any question of freedom to enter into Marriage without any outside force, must be considered.

That I can absolutely agree with.

tee

 

[rinnie]

Maybe I should have said that a bit softer. It is up to the pastor to use his judgement, especially when he knows the person or family well. But any question of freedom to enter into Marriage without any outside force, must be considered.

Actually in a RCC it is actually said in the Mass itself. Father said are you here, both of your on your own free will. And you also HAVE to go to classes. NO EXCEPTIONS!

 

[rinnie]

While I understand that such couples deserve and should receive extra counsel prior to marriage, how is such a refusal thought to be helpful?

“You want to normalize your situation and receive the graces of the sacrament? Nooooo – You go wallow in your sins for 3 or 4 more years. We’ll call when we’re ready for you.”

That does not seem to me to be the surest way to bring souls to Christ…?

tee

Let me just say one thing in fairness to the Priest. who know’s what the other person told father in confession. I know for a fact that my daughter was honest with Father and could be. If for one minute he didn’t think they were doing it for the right reasons it would have refused her too. And I would have understood,

Trust me, a month before her wedding it came back that she was only getting married because I disagreed with her living in sin… I asked her point plank, and told her if you are, you are making a bigger mistake because it will not work out. She said Mom please…if I was so afraid of you I wouldnt have moved out in the first place. I know I was wrong. I had to make it right with God. But she never gave him a option either. He loved her enough to know it was killing her inside. She told me he wanted to marry her right away but didn’t have the money. He wanted to wait longer he was saving up for a huge ring and princess wedding. Well she got a nice ring, and fire hall wedding.

 

[Sarabande]

And you also HAVE to go to classes. NO EXCEPTIONS!

Unfortunately, in the case of that couple I mentioned in my other post, the priest waived the classes as I found out after the wedding. That was wrong.

 

[FrDavid96]

Allow me to repeat myself:

Isn’t the couple’s seeking of the sacrament evidence (even a little bit?) of willingness to embrace it? How do they* know a couple is only seeking appearances and ceremony?

That’s not necessarily true. Just because a couple is seeking a church wedding, does not automatically mean that they are willing to embrace the understanding of marriage as a Sacrament. Yes, it’s a start. That’s why the pastor has a responsibility to work with them and discren where they are in their spiritual lives and build upon that to the point where they are properly prepared. When that happens (and not until that happens) they can be married in the Church.

Perhaps more importantly, how does such a policy square with Canon 1058?

tee

Canon 1058 says that marriage cannot be denied to one(s) who is not prohibited by law. The law also says that in order to receive any Sacrament, one must be properly disposed. In order to enter into the marriage covenant, the couple must understand what that covenant is. Without that, how can they make vows to be married? If they don’t understand what they’re saying, and to what they are making a commitment, they can’t validly enter into marriage. Likewise, if they make the verbal commitment without truly embracing what they are saying, then there is no marriage (since in effect, they are being untruthful in saying the words).

 

[Phemie]

That’s not necessarily true. Just because a couple is seeking a church wedding, does not automatically mean that they are willing to embrace the understanding of marriage as a Sacrament. Yes, it’s a start. That’s why the pastor has a responsibility to work with them and discren where they are in their spiritual lives and build upon that to the point where they are properly prepared. When that happens (and not until that happens) they can be married in the Church.

Evidence a couple I know who were living together and have a daughter. When a fuss was made about him being on the executive of the K of C and his ‘living arrangements’ they suddenly decided to get married. 10 months later, he’s got the daughter and she’s living with someone else.

 

[rinnie]

Evidence a couple I know who were living together and have a daughter. When a fuss was made about him being on the executive of the K of C and his ‘living arrangements’ they suddenly decided to get married. 10 months later, he’s got the daughter and she’s living with someone else.

No offense but if they were living together and not married why would that surprise you. (morals) Even getting married in the Church can’t give that to you.

 

[Phemie]

No offense but if they were living together and not married why would that surprise you. (morals) Even getting married in the Church can’t give that to you.

Not particularly surprised but rather saddened that they seemed to only have married to satisfy the organization he was in.

 

[rinnie]

Not particularly surprised but rather saddened that they seemed to only have married to satisfy the organization he was in.

Isn’t that the truth. People are so worried about what other people think. If only they could feel that way about God. Can other people save you from sin, can other people give you forgiveness for your sins, can other people give you eternal Life. Unreal Huh!

 

[tee_eff_em]

That’s not necessarily true. Just because a couple is seeking a church wedding, does not automatically mean that they are willing to embrace the understanding of marriage as a Sacrament. Yes, it’s a start. That’s why the pastor has a responsibility to work with them and discren where they are in their spiritual lives and build upon that to the point where they are properly prepared. When that happens (and not until that happens) they can be married in the Church.

I did not say it was *necessarily true *-- But neither does the presence of an extra-marital child *necessarily *indicate misunderstanding nor ill-preparedness for the sacrament.

That is why I feel a blanket policy, as indicated in the original post, is mistaken. And FTR: I feel it is just as mistaken as the hypothetical opposite extreme: “You want to get married? Sure come on in. We don’t need to bother with interviews or instruction.”

Canon 1058 says that marriage cannot be denied to one(s) who is not prohibited by law. The law also says that in order to receive any Sacrament, one must be properly disposed. In order to enter into the marriage covenant, the couple must understand what that covenant is. Without that, how can they make vows to be married? If they don’t understand what they’re saying, and to what they are making a commitment, they can’t validly enter into marriage. Likewise, if they make the verbal commitment without truly embracing what they are saying, then there is no marriage (since in effect, they are being untruthful in saying the words).

So what makes a couple with extra-marital children older than 2 years properly disposed, but leaves those with younger extra-marital offspring not so? Why is a sexually active, but childless, couple properly disposed?

For every poster to this thread with anecdotal “evidence” of poor marriages from such situations, I can supply an anecdote of a good marriage with such beginnings.

tee

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Actually in a RCC it is actually said in the Mass itself. Father said are you here, both of your on your own free will. And you also HAVE to go to classes. NO EXCEPTIONS!

Let me tell you that there are many Annulments granted because one stated, we felt we “had to get Married, because of the baby”, We had to get Married because my family would have been embarresed, if the baby was born before we were Married"

Living together is addressed in several of John Paul II’s papal documents on Marriage and Family. Sometimes people who are living together say to themselves: “Let go ahead and get Married and get the legel benefits.”

 

[FrDavid96]

I did not say it was *necessarily true *-- But neither does the presence of an extra-marital child *necessarily *indicate misunderstanding nor ill-preparedness for the sacrament.

tee

Well, the fact that they are having a child kind of makes it obvious that there is some misunderstanding about marriage. I don’t think we have to spell that one out.

It also calls into question their motivation for wanting to get married. That’s why the pastor needs to meet with the couple and the pastor needs to decide where they are, and how to bring them to the point of being ready to properly enter into a valid marriage covenant.

This same principle (of meeting and preparing) applies to every couple seeking to be married, regardless of their circumstances.

That’s why I’ll repeat what I’ve been saying all along, this couple needs to meet with the pastor and discuss with him the parish policy and the Church’s faith with regard to marriage. The parish policy is not at all mistaken–it is unfortunately necessary in today’s society to have such policies and to make them known in advance.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Well, the fact that they are having a child kind of makes it obvious that there is some misunderstanding about marriage. I don’t think we have to spell that one out.

It also calls into question their motivation for wanting to get married.

No moreso than any other couple’s motivation.

That’s why the pastor needs to meet with the couple and the pastor needs to decide where they are, and how to bring them to the point of being ready to properly enter into a valid marriage covenant.

This same principle (of meeting and preparing) applies to every couple seeking to be married, regardless of their circumstances.

That’s why I’ll repeat what I’ve been saying all along, this couple needs to meet with the pastor and discuss with him the parish policy and the Church’s faith with regard to marriage.

Fr, I am confused I happily agree with all of the above, but…

The parish policy is not at all mistaken–it is unfortunately necessary in today’s society to have such policies and to make them known in advance.

Recall the “policy” which prompted this (and which we now know to have been erroneously reported): We refuse to marry any couple who have a child between the age of conception and 2 years.

How is *that *meeting/preparing/discerning the couple’s ability to enter into a valid marriage??

tee

 

[FrDavid96]

No moreso than any other couple’s motivation.

Fr, I am confused I happily agree with all of the above, but…

Recall the “policy” which prompted this (and which we now know to have been erroneously reported): We refuse to marry any couple who have a child between the age of conception and 2 years.

How is *that *meeting/preparing/discerning the couple’s ability to enter into a valid marriage??

tee

Because when a couple seeks to be married and they already have a small child, there is a good probability that they are only getting married “for the sake of the child” and not because they are making a lifelong commitment to each other. This is the grounds presented in so many petitions for decree of nullity that many dioceses and parishes have finally realized that it’s better to make sure the couple is seeking marriage itself first. We don’t want to be performing marriages when there’s a very good statistical probability that a few years later, there will be a petition for nullity.

One more time, the pastor needs to discern their situation and act appropriately. Every couple is different. The pastor applies his own policies, and may dispense from them. The bishop has his policies and particular law, and likewise there are methods for seeking dispensations if the situation calls for it. Couples need to know that if a priest says “I cannot in good conscience marry you yet” that this policy applies to anyone, and not just them personally–that’s why the policy needs to be written and presented to the whole parish; so that no one feels “singled-out.”

The policy is stated, but it still has to be applied. It’s not so much a matter of saying that it’s impossible for a couple with a small child to get married, it’s more a matter of saying that the fact of the child is an indication that the pastor must proceed with caution. I think this paragraph might address your concerns. Does it?