Sacramental union

[mulbraun]

What constitutes a sacramental marriage for spouses married in another church? If a Baptist and a person practicing no religion marry in a Lutheran church, is their union sacramental?

 

[1ke]

What constitutes a sacramental marriage for spouses married in another church?

When non Catholics contract a valid marriage, and both parties are baptized, it is by its nature a sacrament.

If a Baptist and a person practicing no religion marry in a Lutheran church, is their union sacramental?

If both parties are baptized, and there are no impediments to a valid marriage, yes.

 

[Titivillus]

When non Catholics contract a valid marriage, and both parties are baptized, it is by its nature a sacrament.

And to be clear: “non Catholic” means “never Catholic”

If either party has been baptized into or received into the Catholic Church, and later fell away, that party remains bound to marry according to canonical form.

 

[mulbraun]

I need to ask more questions about the couple I am referring to. I don’t know if each of them was baptized, what denomination they were baptized in or what religion each of them was professing. It sounds like they were married in a Lutheran church but neither of them was practicing the Lutheran faith. The bride was Baptist. I will have to ask the groom about his faith at the time of his first marriage.

 

[Gorgias]

I need to ask more questions about the couple I am referring to.

Well, their denomination (and, ostensibly, the civil authorities) consider them validly married. If either later wishes to marry in the Catholic Church, then they can investigate their freedom to marry at that time. Other than that, why would we now inquire what the Church’s opinion of their marriage is?

 

[1ke]

I need to ask more questions about the couple I am referring to.

More context is needed here. Why would you need to ask anyone anything about their marriage? You do not “need to know “anything about their marriage.

If this is a couple who is approaching the church for some reason, then the pastor needs to work with them or someone who is knowledgeable about the marriage laws of the church. This is not something that a person who does not know the basics should be trying to take on.

 

[catholic1seeks]

What I wonder is:

Is a baptized Christian and a person who is not baptized, but still is in the state of grace, in a sacramental union? [After all, Catholic theology does not say that only baptized Christians are in the state of grace]

Why or why not?

 

[1ke]

Is a baptized Christian and a person who is not baptized, but still is in the state of grace , in a sacramental union?

No.

Baptism is the gateway to all other sacraments.

Valid marriages involving one or more unbaptized individuals are valid, natural marriages.

 

[1ke]

After all, Catholic theology does not say that only baptized Christians are in the state of grace]

Whether we are in a state of grace has nothing to do with whether or not we receive the sacraments validly.

Only a baptized person can receive the other six sacraments.

 

[Gorgias]

a person who is not baptized, but still is in the state of grace

[After all, Catholic theology does not say that only baptized Christians are in the state of grace]

Hmm… are the unbaptized – who are still in the state of bearing the effects of original sin – in a “state of grace”?

 

[catholic1seeks]

@Gorgias

Hmm… are the unbaptized – who are still in the state of bearing the effects of original sin – in a “state of grace”?

They are in the state of grace if they are in the state of grace, yes.

Baptism is the sacrament of God’s grace, but He is more than able to do so outside of it (Thief on the Cross, anyone?)

 

[Gorgias]

They are in the state of grace if they are in the state of grace, yes.

You realize that this is unresponsive and not terribly helpful, right?

The whole question is precisely whether someone who hasn’t received the graces normatively received in baptism might be considered “in a state of grace.”

Baptism is the sacrament of God’s grace, but He is more than able to do so outside of it (Thief on the Cross, anyone?)

I would answer that the Good Thief had a conversion experience and, by virtue of his death, was the beneficiary of a sort of ‘baptism of desire’. Of course, no one receives a ‘baptism of desire’ while living – this is something that only makes sense if a person died, desiring baptism, without being able to receive the sacrament. So… the Good Thief did not receive baptism of desire on the cross.

Moreover, a ‘baptism of desire’ is only a ‘baptism’ by analogy – it really refers to the reception of the graces normatively conferred by baptism.

So, we’re still in a situation in which we haven’t yet identified an unbaptized person who is in a state of grace…

 

[catholic1seeks]

@Gorgias

Two points:

1. I will look up the technical definition of “state of grace,” but it’s not totally relevant to my point. When I’m using “state of grace,” I mean sanctifying grace. Someone can be unbaptized and still be in the state of sanctifying grace. This is Catholic teaching.
2. Baptism of Desire can be extended more generally to an implicit desire for Baptism, which anyone who is in the state of grace would have, since being in the state of grace suggests an openness to God’s will.

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

 

[guanophore]

a person who is not baptized, but still is in the state of grace

How do you imagine this might occur?

Catholic theology does not say that only baptized Christians are in the state of grace

True, but invincible ignorance is very rare.

 

[catholic1seeks]

One definition of state of grace:

Condition of a person who is free from mortal sin and pleasing to God. It is the state of being in God’s friendship and the necessary condition of the soul at death in order to attain heaven.

Dictionary : STATE OF GRACE | Catholic Culture

 

[catholic1seeks]

How do you imagine this might occur?

See Catechism I quoted:

“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Also, mere familiarity with the Gospel and the Church is not sufficient to hold one culpable. As Jimmy Akin has said multiple times, if a crazy person came up to you and said “The moon is made of cheese, the Earth is flat, and Jesus Christ is Lord,” you would have no obligation to accept the latter. It’s not as black and white as throwing out terms like “invincible ignorance,” unless we also consider how that might apply in real life scenarios.

 

[guanophore]

. It’s not as black and white as throwing out terms like “invincible ignorance,” unless we also consider how that might apply in real life scenarios.

You seemed to be inquiring about a “real life scenario”, so that was the context. How do you imagine that a man would marry a Christian and remain invincible in ignorance? Why would anyone who has no knowledge of Christianity want to marry a Christian? How do you imagine the groom might be in a state of grace?

 

[Gorgias]

man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved

Right. Ask yourself: at what point are you saved? At baptism? Nope. At First Holy Communion? Nope. At the point of receiving ‘Last Rites’? Nope.

We are saved if we persevere to the end of our life.

So, yes – the Catechism says what you’re quoting it as saying. However, it does not mean what you’re asserting it means.

Those who are invincibly ignorant may be saved; but that’s a statement about their Particular Judgment, and not able their state in life while still living.

When I’m using “state of grace,” I mean sanctifying grace. Someone can be unbaptized and still be in the state of sanctifying grace. This is Catholic teaching.

No, I would say that’s incorrect. From the Catechism:

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism.

So, sanctifying grace – which is what you say you’re talking about – is received in baptism, not prior to baptism.

How do you imagine that a man would marry a Christian and remain invincible in ignorance?

No… that is a possibility.

Why would anyone who has no knowledge of Christianity want to marry a Christian?

I dunno… good teeth? Pretty smile? Wealthy family?

 

[catholic1seeks]

How do you imagine that a man would marry a Christian and remain invincible in ignorance?

Mere knowledge or familiarly is not enough to remit innocence. See my example from Jimmy Akin about the crazy person.

 

[guanophore]

Mere knowledge or familiarly is not enough to remit innocence. See my example from Jimmy Akin about the crazy person.

Perhaps you are unable or unwilling to answer the question about the specific situation. I will depart the thread.