Sacramental union

[catholic1seeks]

Right. Ask yourself: at what point are you saved ? At baptism? Nope. At First Holy Communion? Nope. At the point of receiving ‘Last Rites’? Nope.

We are saved if we persevere to the end of our life.

So, yes – the Catechism says what you’re quoting it as saying. However, it does not mean what you’re asserting it means.

Those who are invincibly ignorant may be saved ; but that’s a statement about their Particular Judgment, and not able their state in life while still living.

I don’t see the difficulty. One is only saved at death if they were in the state of sanctifying grace at the point of death, which implies that it’s possible to be in the state of sanctifying grace before death and not have been sacramentally baptized.

 

[catholic1seeks]

So, sanctifying grace – which is what you say you’re talking about – is received in baptism, not prior to baptism.

So, sanctifying grace – which is what you say you’re talking about – is received in baptism, not prior to baptism.

This is simply not true at all.

Anyone who goes to Heaven does so because of sanctifying grace. Not everyone in Heaven was baptized.

See thief on the cross. Or Elijah and Moses.

Are you saying Elijah and Moses didn’t have sanctifying grace until the moment of their death?

 

[Gorgias]

I don’t see the difficulty. One is only saved at death if they were in the state of sanctifying grace at the point of death

No. It’s a subtle but significant difference. One receives the graces of baptism at the point of death. That means that, at the point of death, one receives sanctifying grace… not prior to it.

which implies that it’s possible to be in the state of sanctifying grace before death and not have been sacramentally baptized.

No… it implies that one may receive sanctifying grace at the point of death.

(After all, if one already has sanctifying grace, what’s the point of a ‘baptism of desire’? Its graces would already have been imparted!)

 

[catholic1seeks]

One receives the graces of baptism at the point of death . That means that, at the point of death, one receives sanctifying grace… not prior to it.

One may receive sanctifying grace at death, I agree.

But it’s another thing to say that this the only alternative to Baptism for sanctifying grace.

In the parable of the tax collector and Pharisee, the tax collector went away from prayer “justified.” He didn’t receive Baptism.

 

[catholic1seeks]

According to Catholic Encyclopedia on Sanctifying Grace:

If the contrition be perfect (contritio caritate perfecta), then active justification results, that is, the soul is immediately placed in the state of grace even before the reception of the sacrament of baptism or penance, though not without the desire for the sacrament (votum sacramenti).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm

Kinda like what happened to the Pharisee in the parable. Of course, in his case, the desire for Baptism is implicit, not explicit.

 

[edward_george1]

I think the important principle in anything regarding this discussion (or the tangential thread which the discussion has begun to follow, in any event) is that while God may dispense his grace in any way he pleases, we are bound to seek that grace in the sacraments as the ordinary means by which we receive it. In brief, God is not bound by the sacraments, but we are.

-Fr ACEGC

 

[SnowRose]

Why would a person practicing no religion marry in any church, and why a Lutheran church? If one of the pair is a practicing Baptist and the other couldn’t care less, why not hold the wedding at a Baptist church?

It really makes no sense with the information provided.

 

[Gorgias]

Kinda like what happened to the Pharisee in the parable. Of course, in his case, the desire for Baptism is implicit, not explicit.

A character in a story Jesus told – who isn’t presented as a believer in Jesus – wished to receive the grace of Jesus in baptism?!?

If the contrition be perfect (contritio caritate perfecta), then active justification results,

Keep in mind what “perfect contrition” is. Someone who is “invincibly ignorant” of God cannot, by definition, experience perfect contrition.

The article you quote suggests that the possibility it mentions may result from “sudden conversions”. That’s not the subject at hand.

the tangential thread which the discussion has begun to follow

Tangential? Sure. Fun to discuss, and important to understand? You betcha.

 

[mulbraun]

The question is whether or not that union would be considered sacramental by the Catholic Church. That couple is divorced and one of the parties wishes to marry a Catholic and do so sacramentally. Is an annulment process that takes 2 years necessary or could the annulment be pretty quick and straightforward?

 

[catholic1seeks]

A character in a story Jesus told – who isn’t presented as a believer in Jesus – wished to receive the grace of Jesus in baptism?!?

Implicit vs. Explicit desire.

Keep in mind what “perfect contrition” is. Someone who is “invincibly ignorant” of God cannot, by definition, experience perfect contrition.

People are always motivated and moved by God’s grace in mysterious ways. It’s the teaching of the Catholic Church that God gives sufficient grace to everyone to be saved.

SO overall, we’ve established people can receive sanctifying grace prior to death, even prior to Baptism in the very preparation of baptism, and therefore outside the sacrament of Baptism. Good

 

[SnowRose]

They could argue that the atheist/agnostic/post-Christian couldn’t enter a sacramental union, having just mouthed the words without not believing it, I guess.

 

[1ke]

The question is whether or not that union would be considered sacramental by the Catholic Church.

No, the question is whether or not the union is considered valid by the Catholic Church.

That couple is divorced and one of the parties wishes to marry a Catholic and do so sacramentally.

That party needs to sit down with the pastor at a Catholic Church, complete a marital investigation, talk with the pastor about the details of their marriage and the parties to the marriage, and then proceed from there.

This is not a do it yourself operation. I am sure you mean well, but the marriage laws of the church require knowledge to apply the correctly. Do not try to give this person advice based on what you read on the Internet or what you “think”.

Each detail of their actual situation needs to be discussed with the pastor.

Is an annulment process that takes 2 years necessary

No one here can tell you whether or not a decree of nullity is required, because we do not have enough details. Nor do we want them. The person needs to go talk to their pastor or the pastor of the person that they want to marry. The couple seeking marriage in the Catholic Church will need to do a full premarital investigation with the pastor and complete premarital preparation, and the place to start that is with the pastor.

As for how long a decree of nullity takes, that varies by diocese. In my diocese it is a few months not two years.

or could the annulment be pretty quick and straightforward?

And the answer is: The parties need to talk to the pastor.

Whether the person needs a decree of nullity, a dissolution of the bond of a natural marriage, or if there something else such as Ligamen or lack of form, these are details that will be discussed with the pastor.

 

[1ke]

They could argue that the atheist/agnostic/post-Christian couldn’t enter a sacramental union, having just mouthed the words without not believing it, I guess.

No they can’t actually.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Two validly baptized Christians in a valid marriage = a Sacramental marriage.

 

[Gorgias]

A character in a story Jesus told – who isn’t presented as a believer in Jesus – wished to receive the grace of Jesus in baptism?!?

Nah. Not in terms of wanting the sacrament. Contrition – as part of ‘sudden conversion’ – and desire. You’re reading way too much into this…

People are always motivated and moved by God’s grace in mysterious ways. It’s the teaching of the Catholic Church that God gives sufficient grace to everyone to be saved.

Agreed. Yet, the Church doesn’t teach what you’re trying to assert here.

SO overall, we’ve established people can receive sanctifying grace prior to death,

No. At the moment of death.

even prior to Baptism in the very preparation of baptism

No. Your quote doesn’t mention “preparation of baptism”, just “sudden conversion” and “perfect contrition”.

and therefore outside the sacrament of Baptism. Good

What you’ve shown – although hidden in a clever proof-texting of quotations – is merely that the graces of baptism are received (1) in baptism itself, or (2) at the time of death (in the case of baptism of desire), or (3) in the case of perfect contrition during a ‘sudden conversion’ (which requires not only an explicit act of faith in God, but the desire for the sacrament of baptism.

Sorry. Your case just doesn’t hold water… even if you think it’s pretty to look at.