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Matthew_Holford
Guest
Must sacramental wine intended for use in the Mass be fermented from the species of grape Vitis vinifera or can any species of grape be used?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Redemptionis Sacramentum only says fruit of the grape. So I’m guessing any variant of grape is acceptable.
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
Addendum: may as well ask this here, does it matter which species of wheat is used for the bread used for Communion?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
No sneaking. I openly slack. I’m not a closeted slackerThanks!
Hope you’re not sneaking in here while at work
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Barbkw
Guest
Vitis vinifera is a very old and very common grape plant used throughout the world to make a variety of wine types:
plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=VIVI5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_vinifera
From New Advent:
"It may be white or red, weak or strong, sweet or dry.
Since the validity of the Holy Sacrifice, and the lawfulness of its celebration, require absolutely genuine wine, it becomes the serious obligation of the celebrant to procure only pure wines.
And since wines are frequently so adulterated as to escape minute chemical analysis, it may be taken for granted that the safest way of procuring pure wine is to buy it not at second hand, but directly from a manufacturer who understands and conscientiously respects the great responsibility involved in the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice."
Wine at our Mass is always red, weak to strong and sweet.
plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=VIVI5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_vinifera
From New Advent:
"It may be white or red, weak or strong, sweet or dry.
Since the validity of the Holy Sacrifice, and the lawfulness of its celebration, require absolutely genuine wine, it becomes the serious obligation of the celebrant to procure only pure wines.
And since wines are frequently so adulterated as to escape minute chemical analysis, it may be taken for granted that the safest way of procuring pure wine is to buy it not at second hand, but directly from a manufacturer who understands and conscientiously respects the great responsibility involved in the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice."
Wine at our Mass is always red, weak to strong and sweet.
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johnnykins
Guest
I don’t think so - and don’t plan to look it up - but it must be wheat and not rye, oats, barley, rice or some other grain.
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runningdude
Guest
Back in the day, wine was what happened when you made grape juice. They didn’t have pasteurization, or refrigeration to preserve the juice, so the natural yeasts on the fruit skins caused fermentation, which created the wine. This is why priests who have difficulty with alcohol are permitted to use fresh, pure grape juice (mustum?), at it is simply wine that hasn’t… matured yet!
As for wine used for the sacrament, it must be pure grape wine, with no artificial additives, or even other natural flavorings. Flavors from the trace amounts of wood saps from the natural barrels or from the wine skins are fine, as they is merely incidental to the production, but there can’t be any other natural flavors deliberately added, nor any preservatives other than the naturally occurring alcohol.
I’d imagine the church would frown on using genetically modified grapes, but I believe that any naturally occurring or bred grape would be acceptable.
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Elizium23
Guest
Now why would you imagine that? Can you cite a document or quote that backs up your opinion? Because, to me, GMOs are just an advanced form of hybrid breeding that has been going on for hundreds of years, and nobody objects to hybridization.
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runningdude
Guest
You’ll note I didn’t say that I thought it impossible
(I have no source one way or another), but merely frowned upon. Its just speculation on my part, that the Church for it most sacred rite, would want to avoid any scandal that genetic modification might present.
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
As Elizium23 said we’ve been messing about with genes for a long time. GMOs have just been misrepresented as some form of frankensteinish monster.You’ll note I didn’t say that I thought it impossible
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ConstantineTG
Guest
If genetically modifying them would change it so as its not grape or wheat anymore, then its invalid matter. But if its still wheat and grapes, then it is valid.
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
Genetic modification is usually done to make a species resistant to a disease or better able to withstand certain environmental conditions. They’re not intended to actually change the species. Most wheat used for making the unleavened bread will be varieties produced through humans modifying wheat varieties. It won’t be made from the original wild type species.
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Digitonomy
Guest
It’s a bit more than just hybrid breeding in that genes from unrelated species can be introduced.
I don’t think there is any doubt about the validity of wine made from genetically modified grapes available now or in the near future. However, if more creative viticulture becomes common, I think you are correct that the Church will establish rules on this. Orange, carrot-flavored wine would be interesting, and while milky white wine that tastes like Bailey’s Irish Cream might technically be valid matter, it does seem a bit beyond the pale.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Wine must be pure. Not sure how that flavoring can be achieved without mixing anything.
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Digitonomy
Guest
By introducing genes that affect the flavor. I’m not saying it will be easy, or that we’ll see it soon. But I think your point is similar to saying “I’m not sure how you could achieve a glow in the dark cat without special paint.”
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runningdude
Guest
To clarify what I meant, lest we go off topic
In general, I don’t believe that the Church has condemned the use of artificial genetic modification for plants to improve quality, durability, etc when done responsibly.
In the specific case of grapes grown for sacramental wine, I speculate that the Church might prefer the use of grape varieties developed through natural plant husbandry.
I don’t think it would be necessary to exclude artificial varieties. For instance I’ve read quotes from the Old Catholic Encyclopedia that state that the proper matter for Baptism is “water”, derived from any source. This could be lake water, salty sea water, melted snow, etc, as long as it is reasonably considered “water”. I’d imagine the same standard applies to “grape”, that as long as its reasonably a grape, as it would be valid matter for the sacrament.
However, the use of natural varieties has two major advantages off the top of my head:
(hopefully I don’t substitute a tangent on genetically modified plants into a tangent on human embryonic research
)
In general, I don’t believe that the Church has condemned the use of artificial genetic modification for plants to improve quality, durability, etc when done responsibly.
In the specific case of grapes grown for sacramental wine, I speculate that the Church might prefer the use of grape varieties developed through natural plant husbandry.
I don’t think it would be necessary to exclude artificial varieties. For instance I’ve read quotes from the Old Catholic Encyclopedia that state that the proper matter for Baptism is “water”, derived from any source. This could be lake water, salty sea water, melted snow, etc, as long as it is reasonably considered “water”. I’d imagine the same standard applies to “grape”, that as long as its reasonably a grape, as it would be valid matter for the sacrament.
However, the use of natural varieties has two major advantages off the top of my head:
- Ensures there will always be a readily accessible grapes that are unquestionably valid
- Allows the Church to speak without any irony against unethical/immoral genetic research (such as research that destroys human embryos)
(hopefully I don’t substitute a tangent on genetically modified plants into a tangent on human embryonic research
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