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jwhafey
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OK goodI agree that those who are past the age of reason need to be catechized before the reception of the Sacraments. I was only speaking of infants as needing no teaching prior to their reception.
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TRH1292
Guest
In light of previous posts, I simply want to restated what I originally said, The Catholic Church has no definite teaching on when these sacraments should be received other than Baptism shortly after birth. The custom and tradition of the Latin/Roman Catholic Church is to spread the sacraments of initiation out. The custom and tradition of the Eastern Catholic Churchās is to apply all three at the same time, to infants.
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Karen107
Guest
It says in scriptures that it is baptism that saves us, not confirmation. All those reasons you gave speak of increasing faith which is good, and the sacrament of confirmation opens us up to more spiritual graces but is not necessary for salvation. We are made a child of God through our baptism. We must believe and be baptized.
Iām not arguing that the church was wrong in confirming anyone, but this is not why confirmations are being put off today. It is our actions that are confirming our beliefs and open us up to more grace in our life and that has to be an important element in this. If we never took it upon ourselves by our beliefs to receive the body and blood of Christ, we wouldnāt never receive that grace from the sacrament would we? So actions related to our beliefs are important.
Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification.
Iām not arguing that the church was wrong in confirming anyone, but this is not why confirmations are being put off today. It is our actions that are confirming our beliefs and open us up to more grace in our life and that has to be an important element in this. If we never took it upon ourselves by our beliefs to receive the body and blood of Christ, we wouldnāt never receive that grace from the sacrament would we? So actions related to our beliefs are important.
Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification.
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Karen107
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All about and moreā¦ Itās confirming our beliefs. Itās saying to God I believe and I accept you as my Lord and Savior and denounce satan. What does a parent do for an infant? They make promises of the baptismal vows in consideration for their baby. In confirmation this is done by the child who should understand what they are saying in order to reaffirm their own baptismal vows.
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Karen107
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Part of the tradition thing is unspoken. Babies often didnāt outlive their infancy back 2000 years ago. Today is not the case.
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jwhafey
Guest
When someone says, āGod I believe and I accept you as my Lord and Savior and denounce Satan,ā it is normally at his baptism. One remembers and restates their baptismal vows at Confirmation to remember them, not accepting them for the first time after the age of reason. Again, people choose their faith every day. Confirmation is not when a person says that they truly accept what they received at Baptism. When it is described like this, it almost sounds like a re-baptism once the person knows whatās going on. Confirmation is a completely different sacrament than baptism. Baptism is the sacrament in which one believes and accepts the Gospel, not Confirmation.
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jwhafey
Guest
But this does not change the nature of the Sacrament. If it was valid then, it is still valid now.
The confirming of oneās faith is not inherently part of the Sacrament of Confirmation (historically called the Sacrament is Chrismation). The Western faithful renew their vowels every Easter already. The renewing of vows has been added to the rite of confirmation but is not actually a part of the Sacrament proper.
The Sacrament confers the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is its purpose.
The Sacrament confers the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is its purpose.
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TRH1292
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Iām not sure what that has to do with it.
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corsair
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Seems this thread has āgone off the pathā. 
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hazcompat
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Karen107
Guest
Actually that is correct. Children cannot accept Jesus in infant baptism so the parents act on their behalf. Confirmation completes the sacrament of baptism.
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Karen107
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It can explain why there was urgency and a tradition made of infant confirmation.
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TRH1292
Guest
That doesnāt have anything to do with it. An Infant does not need confirmation to be in a state of Grace. Baptism remits all original sin and fills the soul with sanctifying grace.
It has to do with Eastern theology and traditions, which are very complex and ancient.
This.
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jwhafey
Guest
This seems to me like an issue. Eastern Christian Rites allow for infants to receive all three sacraments of initiation and the Latin Rite does not. I believe that the children in the Latin Rite are subject to limited graces, because they are not receiving Confirmation or the Eucharist until later in their lives. This is troublesome to me.
The Eucharist, the Body of Christ, the Bread of Life, the Sacrament which the entire Church is built upon, that sacrament which gives us eternal life and is the glorified Body of Christ in Heaven is not allowed for toddlers.
Does anyone else see a problem with this? Iām not trying to disrespect the rite, I am just concerned for the children. The Church may be the societa perfecta, but She is also the pilgrim on earth who needs to grow in holiness still. I hope to one day have children of my own, and I would want them to be connected to the Body of Christ as much as they can be, and if they are being denied the sacraments of Confirmation and the Eucharist due to their age, it would be heartbreaking to me.
The Eastern Catholics and the Latin Catholics are both in communion with each other, in communion with Rome, all Catholicism is Roman Catholicism. But it seems to me that the age which one can receive two of the sacraments of initiation is a subject which cannot be overlooked or undermined.
Your thoughts?
The Eucharist, the Body of Christ, the Bread of Life, the Sacrament which the entire Church is built upon, that sacrament which gives us eternal life and is the glorified Body of Christ in Heaven is not allowed for toddlers.
Does anyone else see a problem with this? Iām not trying to disrespect the rite, I am just concerned for the children. The Church may be the societa perfecta, but She is also the pilgrim on earth who needs to grow in holiness still. I hope to one day have children of my own, and I would want them to be connected to the Body of Christ as much as they can be, and if they are being denied the sacraments of Confirmation and the Eucharist due to their age, it would be heartbreaking to me.
The Eastern Catholics and the Latin Catholics are both in communion with each other, in communion with Rome, all Catholicism is Roman Catholicism. But it seems to me that the age which one can receive two of the sacraments of initiation is a subject which cannot be overlooked or undermined.
Your thoughts?
The graces are indeed limited but not in a way contrary to the Church. The Western Church has practiced the three Sacraments this way for a thousand years. The practice of limiting these graces until an older age is a valid custom in the Church.
One misconception that needs to be clarified in the West is the false notion the confirming is an essential part of Confirmation. Historically this Sacrament is called Chrismation. The name, Confirmation, leads many less educated to think that confirming oneās faith is the point of the Sacrament. The point of the Sacrament is to confer the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit. The West makes those who receive the Sacrament confirm their faith but this confirming of faith is not the Sacrament.
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jwhafey
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I agree with you. I do believe that it is a valid custom of the Church. I believe that if the misconceptions were cleared up in the Latin Rite, if there was true and proper catechesis throughout the West maybe the Latin rite could allow infants to receive all the of the sacraments of initiation, which I believe would be an incredible achievement in the Latin Rite which would bring millions of people closer to Christ.The graces are indeed limited but not in a way contrary to the Church. The Western Church has practiced the three Sacraments this way for a thousand years. The practice of limiting these graces until an older age is a valid custom in the Church.
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Karen107
Guest
This is from CCC 1298 When Confirmation is celebrated separately from Baptism, as is the case in the Roman Rite, the Liturgy of Confirmation begins with** the renewal of baptismal promises**** and the profession of faith by the confirmands**. This clearly shows that Confirmation follows Baptism.111 When adults are baptized, they immediately receive Confirmation and participate in the Eucharist.112The graces are indeed limited but not in a way contrary to the Church. The Western Church has practiced the three Sacraments this way for a thousand years. The practice of limiting these graces until an older age is a valid custom in the Church.
One misconception that needs to be clarified in the West is the false notion the confirming is an essential part of Confirmation. Historically this Sacrament is called Chrismation. The name, Confirmation, leads many less educated to think that confirming oneās faith is the point of the Sacrament. The point of the Sacrament is to confer the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit. The West makes those who receive the Sacrament confirm their faith but this confirming of faith is not the Sacrament.
So as I understand that the profession of ones faith (or the confirming of it) is part of the sacrament, not the whole point of it because we do receive graces from the sacraments, but part of it.
Go to 1300 The essential rite of the sacrament follows. In the Latin rite, "the sacrament of Confirmation is conferred through the anointing with chrism on the forehead, which is done by the laying on of the hand, and through the words: āAccipe signaculum doni Spiritus Sanctiā [Be sealed with the Gift of the Holy Spirit.]."114 In the Eastern Churches of Byzantine rite, after a prayer of epiclesis, the more significant parts of the body are anointed with myron: forehead, eyes, nose, ears, lips, chest, back, hands, and feet. Each anointing is accompanied by the formula SfragiV dwreaV PneumatoV Ā¢Agiou (Signaculum doni Spiritus Sancti): "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit."115
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TRH1292
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The system in the Latin Church presupposes that the children in question are actually being led and instructed in the faith. It is extremely doubtful that this situation will ever change in the Latin Church.
And no, all Catholicism is not Roman Catholicism. All Catholicism is in union with the Bishop of Rome, but Roman Catholicism means the Roman Catholic Church just like Greek Catholic means the Greek Catholic Church and Maronite Catholic means Maronite Catholic Church, which are all particular Churchās within the Catholic Church.
This is really not even on the radar as an issue for the Church and considering the Post-Vatican II attitude towards different liturgical rites it is doubtful it will ever be changed significantly.
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