Sacraments of Initiation

[TRH1292]

This is from CCC 1298 When Confirmation is celebrated separately from Baptism, as is the case in the Roman Rite, the Liturgy of Confirmation begins with the renewal of baptismal promises and the profession of faith by the confirmands. This clearly shows that Confirmation follows Baptism.111 When adults are baptized, they immediately receive Confirmation and participate in the Eucharist.112

So as I understand that the profession of ones faith (or the confirming of it) is part of the sacrament, not the whole point of it because we do receive graces from the sacraments, but part of it.

 

[TimothyH]

Poor catechisis has nothing to do with the reception of the Sacraments. Many Roman Catholics fall away from the faith even thought they were confirmed as teenagers. The Early Church (East and West) uniminously practiced infant confirmation and infant communion. Poor catechisis and relativism is the problem not the Sacraments.

I do not condemn the Western practice and would appreciate your not condemning the Eastern practice as obsolete and unwise.

Zekariya is 100% correct.

The early Church practiced chrismation - anointing with the oil of chrism - what we know as confirmation, at the same time as baptism. Infant confirmation was the norm for the first 500 years of the Church.

In 2005, Bishop Olmsted of Phoenix moved the age of confirmation to third grade. Children now receive confirmation when they receive first communion. He called it the “restored order.” Reference ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/ordsacinit.htm

Those who want a more traditional Church should embrace this. The move to immersion rather than sprinkling for baptism, confirmation prior to first communion, the restoration of the permanent diaconate; these are all traditions which the church had lost. Their return should be welcomed.

-Tim-

 

[jmcrae]

My brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus,

OK, so this has been bothering me for a while. The sacraments of institution (Baptism, Confirmation, and First Communion) are spread out through the development of a child’s life. Generally Baptism as an infant, reception of the Eucharist at the age of reason, and Confirmation in either middle or high school.

I think that this should not be the case. I believe that all three should take place at infancy and all on the same day. Here’s why:

1. CONFIRMATION - Confirmation is widely misinterpreted as being a “coming to age” ceremony or a stage in one’s life where the person “chooses” his faith. This is a complete misinterpretation. Confirmation is neither of these things, because if it were these things, it would not be a sacrament. When one believes that the sacrament of Confirmation is a “coming to age ceremony” or is a time for a person to “choose his faith,” one believes that it is the PERSON who is getting confirmed who is the primary agent in the sacrament. The agent at work in the sacrament of Confirmation is the Holy Spirit through Christ’s body. It is at his Confirmation when the baptized receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Confirmation is sort of like a “completion” or “continuation” of baptismal graces. Also, a person “chooses” his faith every single day of his life. Believing that Confirmation is simple a Sacrament in which he “chooses” his faith, it would be nearly equivalent to a Protestant’s “believer baptism.”
2. THE EUCHARIST - One reason why a lot of people say that children should not receive the Eucharist before the age of reason is because of what St. Paul says in his first epistle to the Corinthians, “Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself,” (1 Cor 11:28-29). The Eucharist should be devoured devoutly, and I certainly do not oppose this. But I respond to those who quote me this line of St. Paul who believe that children should not consume the Eucharist before the age of reason, I respond with what St. Paul says one verse earlier, “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord,” (1 Cor 11:27). Children before the age of reason can hardly be accused of actually sinning against God, for they know not what they do. They do not oppose God knowingly. They cannot be considered unworthy of receiving of the Eucharist because they have sinned. One may respond, “but they still do not know what it is that is happening.” Well in that case, I respond, “neither did they know what was happening during their baptism.” Besides, Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs,” (Matthew 19:14). He says, “Let the little children come to ME.” He invites the little children to His Body, and His Body is the Eucharist.

The current discipline of the Western Rite is to spread them out over the course of childhood. In the Eastern Rites, they are all done at the time of baptism, just as with adults in the Western Rite.

It seems good to the Pope and to the Bishops to do it this way, so in obedience we follow our Bishops because, as St. Ignatius of Antioch teaches us, “Where the Bishop is, there is Jesus Christ and His Church.”

 

[Karen107]

The current discipline of the Western Rite is to spread them out over the course of childhood. In the Eastern Rites, they are all done at the time of baptism, just as with adults in the Western Rite.

It seems good to the Pope and to the Bishops to do it this way, so in obedience we follow our Bishops because, as St. Ignatius of Antioch teaches us, “Where the Bishop is, there is Jesus Christ and His Church.”

:thumbsup:This

 

[Zekariya]

This is from CCC 1298 When Confirmation is celebrated separately from Baptism, as is the case in the Roman Rite, the Liturgy of Confirmation begins with** the renewal of baptismal promises**** and the profession of faith by the confirmands**. This clearly shows that Confirmation follows Baptism.111 When adults are baptized, they immediately receive Confirmation and participate in the Eucharist.112

So as I understand that the profession of ones faith (or the confirming of it) is part of the sacrament, not the whole point of it because we do receive graces from the sacraments, but part of it.

The profession of faith is currently part of the Roman Rite of Confirmation (when Confirmation is celebrated separately from Baptism) but is not a part of the Sacrament of Confirmation. In the same sense, exorcism is a part of the Rite of Baptism but is not a part of the Sacrament of Baptism. The Sacrament of Confirmation is a reception of grace and is not profession of faith. The Sacrament of Baptism is a reception of grace and is not an exorcism.

 

[Karen107]

The profession of faith is currently part of the Roman Rite of Confirmation (when Confirmation is celebrated separately from Baptism) but is not a part of the Sacrament of Confirmation. In the same sense, exorcism is a part of the Rite of Baptism but is not a part of the Sacrament of Baptism. The Sacrament of Confirmation is a reception of grace and is not profession of faith. The Sacrament of Baptism is a reception of grace and is not an exorcism.

But yet, it is part of the confirmation ceremony. If a Bishop asked a confirmand why he wanted to be confirmed and the confirmand said something like “I don’t know’ or 'My parents made me”. Do you believe the Bishop would confirm the child? That’s an honest question. God doesn’t take the unwilling in this sense.

 

[Zekariya]

But yet, it is part of the confirmation ceremony. If a Bishop asked a confirmand why he wanted to be confirmed and the confirmand said something like “I don’t know’ or 'My parents made me”. Do you believe the Bishop would confirm the child? That’s an honest question.

Western Catholics must profess their faith because that is the Western practice. Different liturgical rites (ceremonies not the actual Sacrament itself) of the different Catholic Churches have different practices. The confirming of the faith is not a part of the Sacrament itself. If it was, all rites would include it.

 

[Karen107]

Western Catholics must profess their faith because that is the Western practice. Different liturgical rites (ceremonies not the actual Sacrament itself) of the different Catholic Churches have different practices. The confirming of the faith is not a part of the Sacrament itself. If it was, all rites would include it.

Yes but, if a parent is taking baptismal vows for their children and then having the three sacraments together, it seems to me that profession of ones faith is part of the three sacraments before they are administered. Especially as the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace.

Am I wrong to think these other rites make baptismal vows similar to the Roman Catholic rite?

 

[Zekariya]

Yes but, if a parent is taking baptismal vows for their children and then having the three sacraments together, it seems to me that profession of ones faith is part of the three sacraments before they are administered. Especially as the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace.

Am I wrong to think these other rites make baptismal vows similar to the Roman Catholic rite?

Since it is all done at once, one profession is made by the Godparent before baptism. A profession of faith is not required of infants before baptism, confirmation, and communion. Only those who have reached the age of reason must personally profess their faith before receiving the Sacraments. However, baptism is the remission of sins not a profession though a profession is made in the ceremony and the same is true of the other Sacraments. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

The Church has always given baptism, confirmation, and communion to infants from the beginning. Even though this practice has changed in the West, Rome has always acknowledged the validity of the ancient custom still done in the East. The Vatican and the popes support the Confirmation tradition of the Western Church and the Confirmation tradition of the Eastern Church.

We profess our faith every week in the Eastern Churches. We give our children religious education in the Eastern Churches. The only difference is that they are confirmed as infants and not as teenagers.

 

[jmcrae]

I agree with you. I do believe that it is a valid custom of the Church. I believe that if the misconceptions were cleared up in the Latin Rite, if there was true and proper catechesis throughout the West maybe the Latin rite could allow infants to receive all the of the sacraments of initiation, which I believe would be an incredible achievement in the Latin Rite which would bring millions of people closer to Christ.

Not as long as the only reason Western parents bring their children for Catechism is so they can be Confirmed. Otherwise they will receive all of the sacraments at birth and then never darken the door again until it’s time for their wedding.

A whole change of culture would be needed before it would be possible to fully initiate infants into the Church - not to mention way more Bishops since priests aren’t normally supposed to give the Sacrament of Confirmation.

 

[TimothyH]

Not as long as the only reason Western parents bring their children for Catechism is so they can be Confirmed. Otherwise they will receive all of the sacraments at birth and then never darken the door again until it’s time for their wedding.

A whole change of culture would be needed before it would be possible to fully initiate infants into the Church - not to mention way more Bishops since priests aren’t normally supposed to give the Sacrament of Confirmation.

But confirmation (crismation) at baptism was the norm for the first 500 years of the Church.

-Tim-

 

[jmcrae]

But confirmation (crismation) at baptism was the norm for the first 500 years of the Church.

-Tim-

The surrounding culture expected children to learn their faith, in those days. Also, there were way more Bishops, and fewer children.

Today, the surrounding culture would really prefer that children never learn anything about God or Jesus at all, and that they occupy themselves with becoming productive workers and hungry consumers. Bishops are busy enough getting to the Confirmations of kids in the sixth grade, never mind confirming every child who gets baptized.

 

[Karen107]

Not as long as the only reason Western parents bring their children for Catechism is so they can be Confirmed. Otherwise they will receive all of the sacraments at birth and then never darken the door again until it’s time for their wedding.

A whole change of culture would be needed before it would be possible to fully initiate infants into the Church - not to mention way more Bishops since priests aren’t normally supposed to give the Sacrament of Confirmation.

I believe that spreading out the sacraments is good because we don’t learn about God in our infancy, but we must keep learning about God and come closer to Jesus throughout our lives. Not all blame lies on the parents either. The culture we are in are working really hard to steal our children away from their faith. And when you think about it, we want children to learn to live on there own, so it’s a vicious struggle going on here that speaks of our times. I remember growing up, faith was a given and might have been taken for granted, and my parents really weren’t involved in my life like parents are today, and so many in my generation sadly turned away from their faith. Parents need to continue to be involved in their children’s spiritual life as well as the other areas of their lives, sadly, the parents need to be catechized because they often left their spiritual life behind, or explored another path outside of the Church.

 

[Zekariya]

Not as long as the only reason Western parents bring their children for Catechism is so they can be Confirmed. Otherwise they will receive all of the sacraments at birth and then never darken the door again until it’s time for their wedding.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. You are saying…

If we spread the Sacraments, we force the parents to put their children through religious education classes so that their children can be given the Sacraments thereby forcing the parents to give opportunity for the children to learn about the Faith.

A whole change of culture would be needed before it would be possible to fully initiate infants into the Church - not to mention way more Bishops since priests aren’t normally supposed to give the Sacrament of Confirmation.

The current discipline of the Western Church has the bishop as the ordinary minister of Confirmation. This discipline could be changed to make priests ordinary ministers of Confirmation as well (this is how it is in the East).

Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that the West adopt Eastern practices, just pointing out that the amount of bishops should not be an issue if infants started being Confirmed.

 

[jmcrae]

Let me see if I understand this correctly. You are saying…

If we spread the Sacraments, we force the parents to put their children through religious education classes so that their children can be given the Sacraments thereby forcing the parents to give opportunity for the children to learn about the Faith.

In practice, this is in fact what happens.

The current discipline of the Western Church has the bishop as the ordinary minister of Confirmation. This discipline could be changed to make priests ordinary ministers of Confirmation as well (this is how it is in the East).

Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that the West adopt Eastern practices, just pointing out that the amount of bishops should not be an issue if infants started being Confirmed.

I happen to like the current discipline, since it also creates an opportunity for the children to know their Bishop, and come to love him.

 

[babochka]

All about and more… It’s confirming our beliefs. It’s saying to God I believe and I accept you as my Lord and Savior and denounce satan. What does a parent do for an infant? They make promises of the baptismal vows in consideration for their baby. In confirmation this is done by the child who should understand what they are saying in order to reaffirm their own baptismal vows.

Where does the Church teach that the Sacrament of Confirmation it is about confirming our beliefs? The sacraments are the work of the Holy Spirit. In the Latin Rite, the people renew their baptismal promises at Easter in the Easter liturgy. This is something we all need to do throughout our lives.

 

[babochka]

The profession of faith is currently part of the Roman Rite of Confirmation (when Confirmation is celebrated separately from Baptism) but is not a part of the Sacrament of Confirmation.

Exactly. If a Latin Rite priest were baptizing an infant in danger of death, he should also confirm the baby. Since the Confirmation would not be separate from the Baptism and would be below the age of reason, there would be no profession of faith in such a case.

 

[babochka]

I happen to like the current discipline, since it also creates an opportunity for the children to know their Bishop, and come to love him.

Because he spends 30 seconds giving them a Sacrament in an assembly line? The most recent Confirmation I attended in the Latin church had 75 kids. I’m not condemning the practice at all. I think kids can really get a thrill out of the “specialness” of being Confirmed by the Bishop, but how exactly do they get to know him? Certainly, they develop a connection to the bishop and I think that is important, but there are other ways to do that.

In some Latin countries, babies are baptized by the priest, then when the Bishop comes to the parish, all unconfirmed children who have been baptized since his last visit are brought for confirmation. You end up getting mostly children under 5.

 

[TimothyH]

The surrounding culture expected children to learn their faith, in those days. Also, there were way more Bishops, and fewer children.

Today, the surrounding culture would really prefer that children never learn anything about God or Jesus at all, and that they occupy themselves with becoming productive workers and hungry consumers. Bishops are busy enough getting to the Confirmations of kids in the sixth grade, never mind confirming every child who gets baptized.

In 2005, Bishop Olmsted of Phoenix moved the age of confirmation to third grade. Children now receive confirmation when they receive first communion. Bishop Olmstead called it the “restored order.” Reference ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/ordsacinit.htm

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

I wanted to edit the previous post but time ran out.

Bishop Aquila of Fargo ND restored the order to baptism first, confirmation second and then Eucharist. This was done in early 2012 and he was praised for it by the Pope. Reference catholicnewsagency.com/news/bishop-aquila-receives-popes-praise-for-reordering-sacraments/

-Tim-