Sacraments of the Orthodox and SSPX

[Crusading_Canuk]

So to my understanding in the eyes of the Faithful and Rome, the Orthodox Churches administer fully valid Sacraments; including those of Marriage and Penance. My purpose is not to contest that (for I also believe that they do), but to ask at the same time how can some also believe the SSPX (who are not schismatic) are unable to administer either marriage or penance validly. This is something I’ve never been able to understand.

 

[Iotaunum]

Well I would disagree of course that SSPX sacraments are invalid, myself attending an SSPX Mass and receiving the Sacraments there. In fact I had a conditional Confirmation, and made a general confession since I did not believe my parish priests absolved me properly (they told me certain sins were not sins, gave no penance and did not say the words of absolution- this occurred many times). I would not have done this needless to say, without studying whether or not the sacraments administered by the SSPX were valid. If I had any doubts, I would not go there for confession. This was an issue I studied deeply before deciding to attend an SSPX Mass, since I had heard some people say their Marriages and Confessions are not valid since they do not claim any jurisdiction. Others of course disagree with me, and I have debated the issue many times. It is indeed a complex issue, once all of the arguments from both sides are on the table. One thing I would say though, is that certain sins require the permission of the Holy See to absolve, and this permission has been given a few times it was asked for by Priests of the SSPX. Also, those who leave the SSPX are not required to make a general confession or confess sins absolved by an SSPX Priest.

 

[Stylites]

Well I would disagree of course that SSPX sacraments are invalid, myself attending an SSPX Mass and receiving the Sacraments there.

Catholics ought not pick and choose which teachings of the Church they are to follow and which they are to ignore.

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

Catholics ought not pick and choose which teachings of the Church they are to follow and which they are to ignore.

Yeah I’m coming to agree with you wholeheartedly, scroll down to Canon XIII
history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct07.html

But that really isn’t what I’m trying to discuss or understand here. Why do the Orthodox have valid confessions and marriages while the SSPX do not? What is the fundamental difference causing SSPX confessions and marriages to be invalid?

 

[Just_Lurking]

Why do the Orthodox have valid confessions and marriages while the SSPX do not? What is the fundamental difference causing SSPX confessions and marriages to be invalid?

All bishops, including I believe SSPX bishops, can perform valid confessions and marriages.

For a priest to perform valid confessions and marriages, he needs the approval/authority/jurisdiction to do so from his bishop. For Orthodox priests, their bishop is the Orthodox bishop, who has presumably granted this authority. For SSPX priests, their bishop is the official Catholic bishop of the diocese they are in, who has definitely not granted this authority.

In a nutshell, the Catholic Church recognizes Orthodox priests as being under the authority of their Orthodox bishops, whereas the Vatican does not recognize SSPX priests as being under the authority of any SSPX bishop.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Is this may be a matter of terminology?

If SSPX priests are validly ordained then marriages witnessed by them and absolutions given should be valid.

May be marriages witnessed by and absolutions given by SSPX priests are illicit because they are not authorised to witness marriages and to give absolution.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Is this may be a matter of terminology?

If SSPX priests are validly ordained then marriages witnessed by them and absolutions given should be valid.

May be marriages witnessed by and absolutions given by SSPX priests are illicit because they are not authorised to witness marriages and to give absolution.

I believe that marriages witnessed by and absolutions given by SSPX bishops are valid but illicit.

The general consensus of Catholic canon lawyers is that marriages witnessed by and absolutions given by SSPX priests fall into the category of marriages witnessed by and absolutions given by any validly ordained priest acting outside the delegated authorization of his ordinary, which is not only illicit but also invalid.

 

[MarkThompson]

Is this may be a matter of terminology?

If SSPX priests are validly ordained then marriages witnessed by them and absolutions given should be valid.

May be marriages witnessed by and absolutions given by SSPX priests are illicit because they are not authorised to witness marriages and to give absolution.

The Code of Canon Law says:
Can. 1108 §1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses according to the rules expressed in the following canons and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. 144 [common error], 1112, §1 [lay people appointable in absence of priests], 1116 [no priest needed in cases of danger of death or unavailability of priests lasting over a month], and 1127, §§1-2 [dispensations for mixed marriages].
The SSPX does not have ordinaries and pastors, so unless SSPX priests or deacons are duly delegated by the legitimate authorities (which is possible, I suppose, but tough to imagine, since the Holy See has confirmed that the SSPX exercises no legitimate ministry to the faithful), any alleged marriages contracted before them are invalid.

 

[malphono]

In sofar as Penance is concerned, the following canon applies:

Can. 966 §1. The valid absolution of sins requires that the minister have, in addition to the power of orders, the faculty of exercising it for the faithful to whom he imparts absolution.

.
I am unaware of any such requirement of faculties, as such, for Matrimony.

 

[Danquayle76]

In sofar as Penance is concerned, the following canon applies:

.
I am unaware of any such requirement of faculties, as such, for Matrimony.

Isn’t the sacrament of matrimony valid even when performed by a Protestant minister?

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I believe that marriages witnessed by and absolutions given by SSPX bishops are valid but illicit.

The general consensus of Catholic canon lawyers is that marriages witnessed by and absolutions given by SSPX priests fall into the category of marriages witnessed by and absolutions given by any validly ordained priest acting outside the delegated authorization of his ordinary, which is not only illicit but also invalid.

So are you saying in the case of the SSPX they are valid or invalid?

 

[laszlo]

So to my understanding in the eyes of the Faithful and Rome, the Orthodox Churches administer fully valid Sacraments; including those of Marriage and Penance. My purpose is not to contest that (for I also believe that they do), but to ask at the same time how can some also believe the SSPX (who are not schismatic) are unable to administer either marriage or penance validly. This is something I’ve never been able to understand.

According to the Canon Law

Can. 966 §1. The valid absolution of sins requires that the minister have, in addition to the power of orders, the faculty of exercising it for the faithful to whom he imparts absolution.

Can. 1108 §1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses according to the rules expressed in the following canons and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. ⇒ 144, ⇒ 1112, §1, ⇒ 1116, and ⇒ 1127, §§1-2.

Neither the Orthodox clergy nor the SSPX possess this faculty. The only difference is that the Orthodox priest do not absolve/marry Catholics knowingly w/o intent to convert.

 

[MarkThompson]

Isn’t the sacrament of matrimony valid even when performed by a Protestant minister?

For Protestants, yes. Catholics, however, are bound by Canon Law, so if two Catholics wander over to their local Presbyterian minister because the church is pretty, their marriage would be invalid.

 

[RyanBlack]

Isn’t the sacrament of matrimony valid even when performed by a Protestant minister?

Marriages of Catholics outside of the Catholic Church are valid only when permission is granted by the Church for the wedding to take place in a Protestant church.

 

[Kielbasi]

For Protestants, yes. Catholics, however, are bound by Canon Law, so if two Catholics wander over to their local Presbyterian minister because the church is pretty, their marriage would be invalid.

If SSPX adherents never were members of any Catholic diocese, are they still bound by these canons?

I’m talking about those adherents who came to the SSPX from other non-catholic faiths, or those born into the movement.

 

[Aramis]

So to my understanding in the eyes of the Faithful and Rome, the Orthodox Churches administer fully valid Sacraments; including those of Marriage and Penance. My purpose is not to contest that (for I also believe that they do), but to ask at the same time how can some also believe the SSPX (who are not schismatic) are unable to administer either marriage or penance validly. This is something I’ve never been able to understand.

The SSPX do not have valid faculties, and those two sacraments require faculties to be valid. The faculties require a territorial bishop to grant them for use on the laity.

The Orthodox DO have valid faculties, descendent from a valid episcopate.

If the SSPX were to declare formal schism, then they would be able to establish territorial dioceses and thus grant faculties.

 

[ConstantineTG]

So to my understanding in the eyes of the Faithful and Rome, the Orthodox Churches administer fully valid Sacraments; including those of Marriage and Penance. My purpose is not to contest that (for I also believe that they do), but to ask at the same time how can some also believe the SSPX (who are not schismatic) are unable to administer either marriage or penance validly. This is something I’ve never been able to understand.

Because they have no ministry in the Church as of now. They do not have the necessary faculties. The difference with the Orthodox is they are a separate (or should I say separated) entity and therefore is seen differently than the SSPX. Basically, the Church can discipline only those within the Catholic Church.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Is this may be a matter of terminology?

If SSPX priests are validly ordained then marriages witnessed by them and absolutions given should be valid.

May be marriages witnessed by and absolutions given by SSPX priests are illicit because they are not authorised to witness marriages and to give absolution.

No. Witnessing a marriage is on behalf of the Church. Even a lay person can perform a valid Latin Rite marriage if the Church would give that person the faculties to do so. Because the ministers of the Sacrament are the husband and wife, and the witness (usually a priest, sometimes a deacon) is just that, a witness for the Church. So if the SSPX has no faculties, then they cannot witness in behalf of the Church.

Same for confession. Its a ministry of the Church. So faculties is important to be able to validly grant absolution in behalf of the Church. In extreme cases, by law the faculties are supplied to any ordained priest for the specific situation.

 

[Danquayle76]

For Protestants, yes. Catholics, however, are bound by Canon Law, so if two Catholics wander over to their local Presbyterian minister because the church is pretty, their marriage would be invalid.

Interesting. So if one of these hypothetical Catholics decided to marry another person in the Catholic Church, would an annulment of the invalid marriage be needed?

 

[MarkThompson]

Interesting. So if one of these hypothetical Catholics decided to marry another person in the Catholic Church, would an annulment of the invalid marriage be needed?

I haven’t the slightest idea!

I never respond to the “can I get / do I need an annulment if …” threads that crop up regularly on the Liturgy & Sacraments board, though there are a few commenters like Phemie who know all the rules. Personally, I don’t know anything about annulments, and have almost zero interest in the topic.