Sacraments of the Orthodox and SSPX

[rben20]

Doesn’t anyone find that weird though? Why is it the Orthodox are considered to have faculties (valid sacraments) while completely in schism and the SSPX who are “floating” do not have such faculties (some valid sacraments others not)? Just seems like we are playing the fence almost…especially to the wrong one.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Interesting. So if one of these hypothetical Catholics decided to marry another person in the Catholic Church, would an annulment of the invalid marriage be needed?

If a Catholic marries without canonical form and lacks dispensation from canonical form the marriage is invalid. The marriage could be convalidated.

Alternatively, one of the spouses may petition for a declaration of nullity. A declaration of nullity from a tribunal confirmed by an appellate tribunal is required before the parties may be free to marry again.

 

[Iotaunum]

Catholics ought not pick and choose which teachings of the Church they are to follow and which they are to ignore.

I agree with you, but I think you are confused. I do not pick and choose which teachings of the Church I accept and which I ignore: that would make me, and the entire faithful who attend Mass at an SSPX Chapel heretics. I accept all teachings of the Church bar none. I do agree with the SSPX’s arguments though for the validity of sacraments administered by their priests with supplied jurisdction etc. I really don’t want to start a debate over the validity - I am convinced my confessions are valid which is enough for me.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

So to my understanding in the eyes of the Faithful and Rome, the Orthodox Churches administer fully valid Sacraments; including those of Marriage and Penance. My purpose is not to contest that (for I also believe that they do), but to ask at the same time how can some also believe the SSPX (who are not schismatic) are unable to administer either marriage or penance validly. This is something I’ve never been able to understand.

It is not that they are invalid. From what I have read it is that they are illicit. Because the SSPX are Roman Catholic, They do fall under cannon Law. The Bishop that started the community did not have premission to ordain other bishops ( they were still valid Bishops just not illict) and because of that they had no right to ordain other preist.

As a catholic you are bond by cannon law since Rome has stated that the SSPX do a regular ministry with in the Church. Talks are in the works to correct this and Rome has also stated that if a member of the faithful goes to one of their services out of love for the EF there is not a problem, However one must be careful that they are not lending to scandelize their brother or lending and acting in a schismatix way.

 

[ProVobis]

If a Catholic marries without canonical form and lacks dispensation from canonical form the marriage is invalid. The marriage could be convalidated.

Alternatively, one of the spouses may petition for a declaration of nullity. A declaration of nullity from a tribunal confirmed by an appellate tribunal is required before the parties may be free to marry again.

Which brings us to another issue. Since SSPX does annulments, are these annulments valid?

 

[dans0622]

If SSPX adherents never were members of any Catholic diocese, are they still bound by these canons?

I’m talking about those adherents who came to the SSPX from other non-catholic faiths, or those born into the movement.

Hello Kielbasi,

This is an important question. Only those who are baptized or received into the Catholic Church are bound to Catholic canon law. This would include the law regarding the faculties for granting absolution and witnessing marriage.

The answer would seem to be that those who are, and always have been, “part” of the SSPX *certainly *consider themselves to be Roman Catholic and subject to the authority of the Pope. Therefore, they are bound to observe canon law, including the law regarding faculties for these two Sacraments.

The Orthodox, on the other hand, are not part of the Catholic Church (legally speaking). They are not bound to observe our laws regarding faculties. Any law regarding faculties is “merely ecclesiastical,” meaning, tomorrow, the Pope could declare that no priest needs faculties to absolve and witness marriage and this act of the Pope would not be contrary to any divine law.

This distinction as to who is bound to merely ecclesiastical law is the one that allows the Church to accept, without question, the validity of all the Sacraments of the Orthodox while questioning the validity of some of those celebrated by SSPX priests and others who are in a similar canonical situation.

In any case, I hope and pray that the SSPX is soon able to take up a canonically legitimate ministry in the Church.

Dan

 

[ConstantineTG]

Doesn’t anyone find that weird though? Why is it the Orthodox are considered to have faculties (valid sacraments) while completely in schism and the SSPX who are “floating” do not have such faculties (some valid sacraments others not)? Just seems like we are playing the fence almost…especially to the wrong one.

You have to understand the structures of both “groups” to be able to understand. The Orthodox has 2 of the original 4 Patriarchates, while the SSPX is just a group within the Roman Church.

 

[paul11b]

Maybe I missed this in the posting but what is the SSPX?

 

[PaulinVA]

Which brings us to another issue. Since SSPX does annulments, are these annulments valid?

Can a group with no ministry within the Church grant annulments? I would doubt it.

Can a decree of nullity be valid but illicit? I don’t think it’s even valid. There is, once again, no jurisdiction. However, it might be the perfect way to declare null a marriage performed with no jurisdiction.

 

[laszlo]

The Orthodox DO have valid faculties, descendent from a valid episcopate.

If the SSPX were to declare formal schism, then they would be able to establish territorial dioceses and thus grant faculties.

Only formally and upon their subjects. From Catholic point of view only the Dignitatis Humanae declared this faculty as valuable. The tragedy of the SSPX is that they reject the Dignitatis Humanae too, the power of the non malevolent conscience.

 

[rben20]

It’s just really sad. A sad sad situation. You have many priests being ordained and whole communities who really believe the sacraments are valid. All those children making their first communions, all those children making their first confession. All the people who continue to live the Catholic life while not really having those true moments or having them somewhat tainted. It’s just depressing.

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

I agree with you, but I think you are confused. I do not pick and choose which teachings of the Church I accept and which I ignore: that would make me, and the entire faithful who attend Mass at an SSPX Chapel heretics. I accept all teachings of the Church bar none. I do agree with the SSPX’s arguments though for the validity of sacraments administered by their priests with supplied jurisdction etc. I really don’t want to start a debate over the validity - I am convinced my confessions are valid which is enough for me.

Wait how are the SSPX and those who attend their chapels heretics? They reject no dogma, and commit no anathemas. They are highly orthodox, and a prime example of the Faith!

 

[ConstantineTG]

Wait how are the SSPX and those who attend their chapels heretics? They reject no dogma, and commit no anathemas. They are highly orthodox, and a prime example of the Faith!

Heresy is not their issue. Well, depends if you consider questioning a valid Council and questioning the Church in developments past that council as heresy.

 

[Monica4316]

I read that the SSPX have a valid Eucharist, but not valid Confession, because they are not in communion with their proper bishops which are the local Catholic bishops.

However - don’t the SSPX have their own bishops? like the Orthodox? I’m confused… if the SSPX bishops are valid but illicit, doesn’t that still mean they are actual bishops, connected to Apostolic Succession?

I find all this confusing but I guess it doesn’t really relate to me because I don’t attend an SSPX chapel.

 

[Harpazo]

I’m pretty sure we have legitimate sacraments, too. But thanks for the compliment.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[ConstantineTG]

I read that the SSPX have a valid Eucharist, but not valid Confession, because they are not in communion with their proper bishops which are the local Catholic bishops.

However - don’t the SSPX have their own bishops? like the Orthodox? I’m confused… if the SSPX bishops are valid but illicit, doesn’t that still mean they are actual bishops, connected to Apostolic Succession?

I find all this confusing but I guess it doesn’t really relate to me because I don’t attend an SSPX chapel.

The faculties come from the Church. A Bishop is the Church (ie, ever diocese is a particular Church) unless of course a higher authority says otherwise (Pope, Synod, Canon Law, etc). So not just because one is a Bishop means they can lawfully grant faculties. The Church says the SSPX does not have a ministry in the Church, therefore their Bishops cannot lawfully grant faculties.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’m pretty sure we have legitimate sacraments, too. But thanks for the compliment.

In Christ,
Andrew

Well, Catholics cannot get married validly or get confessions heard validly from Orthodox priests unless there is proper permission from the Catholic Church in case of marriage, and for confession the faculties will be supplied by law in cases of necessity.

 

[Aramis]

Interesting. So if one of these hypothetical Catholics decided to marry another person in the Catholic Church, would an annulment of the invalid marriage be needed?

The annulment process would be needed to document that it was in fact invalid.

An annulment doesn’t make it “no longer valid”… it merely documents that the invalid marriage was always invalid (and possibly that the couple didn’t realize same).

And in some cases, the annulment is not granted; that is, a decree of nullity is not possble, as the marriage was found to have been valid. I’ve known several people who can’t get a decree of nullity, despite having tried.

 

[Aramis]

Which brings us to another issue. Since SSPX does annulments, are these annulments valid?

I doubt it.

Tribunals are appointed by the judge of 1st instance, who is the diocesan bishop. His judicial vicar and two other clerics, all with JCD’s or JCL’s comprise a tribunal, and marriage cases are reserved to such a tribunal. Can. 1419 & 1425. Ordinaries of papal right orders, monastic houses, and societies are limited to judging their own members and houses.

So, a diocesan bishop has to have a judicial vicar, and the JV has to judge along with two other clerics holding JCL or JCD credentials (canon law license or doctorate). Since the SSPX has no diocesan bishops, their tribunal is only the correct forum for members of the SSPX… which would be their seminarians and clerics. (Can 1427)

I suspect, however, that their tribunals’ actions will be admitted under supplied jurisdiction should the SSPX be returned to valid ministry within the church.

 

[Iotaunum]

Wait how are the SSPX and those who attend their chapels heretics? They reject no dogma, and commit no anathemas. They are highly orthodox, and a prime example of the Faith!

You have picked me up wrong - I’m not saying they are. I attend Mass at an SSPX Chapel and I am certainly not a heretic, and neither are the Priets of the SSPX. In terms of being a prime example of the faith - I agree 100%.