Sacraments Outside Catholic Church

[PJD1987]

I feel as though I may be overthinking this particular issue, but its been on my mind and I think I may just need a refresher and encouragement here, I apologize if I’m overlooking something very simple or making a mountain out of a mole hill:

My understanding is that regardless of the faith you are born into, baptism is valid and does not need to be redone. i’m reading an book now about the early church and how there was great debate about whether or not someone needed to be re-baptised if they had been baptised by an Arian priest, and at one of the councils they proclaimed that baptism is valid despite the conditions and inclinations of the person conferring the baptism. I might just be misapplying that to our current separated brethren, but if that could be cleared up for me I’d appreciate it.

Secondly, following this logic, it begs the question: why would the Lord refuse to transsubstantiate during their “communion” ceremonies and deny those He loves from the Holy Eucharist and why would He refuse to forgive their sins if they’re truly repent because they do not go to confession?

As I said, I think I’m overthinking these things, it just doesn’t seem like a loving God to do that…

Thanks for your thoughts.

God Bless,
Paul

 

[Monica4316]

I feel as though I may be overthinking this particular issue, but its been on my mind and I think I may just need a refresher and encouragement here, I apologize if I’m overlooking something very simple or making a mountain out of a mole hill:

My understanding is that regardless of the faith you are born into, baptism is valid and does not need to be redone. i’m reading an book now about the early church and how there was great debate about whether or not someone needed to be re-baptised if they had been baptised by an Arian priest, and at one of the councils they proclaimed that baptism is valid despite the conditions and inclinations of the person conferring the baptism. I might just be misapplying that to our current separated brethren, but if that could be cleared up for me I’d appreciate it.

Secondly, following this logic, it begs the question: why would the Lord refuse to transsubstantiate during their “communion” ceremonies and deny those He loves from the Holy Eucharist and why would He refuse to forgive their sins if they’re truly repent because they do not go to confession?

As I said, I think I’m overthinking these things, it just doesn’t seem like a loving God to do that…

Thanks for your thoughts.

God Bless,
Paul

Hi Paul,

well it’s true that baptism is always valid if it’s done in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Where did you find the idea that God does not forgive Protestants of their sins? They can go to Heaven if they were ignorant, or otherwise weren’t Catholic due to no fault of their own. If they didn’t know about Confession and didn’t understand its importance through no fault of their own, the Church says they can be forgiven. Confession is the ordinary way to be forgiven, but God is not bound by it. (however if a person has an opportunity to go, they should go. What I’m talking about only applies when there is no opportunity, through no fault of the person).

For the Eucharist… for a valid consecration, we need a validly ordained priest (so Apostolic Succession), proper form, and proper matter. No Protestant group fits this criteria. None of them, not even the Anglicans, have the priesthood - because they left Apostolic Succession, or they stopped believing in it and ordaining priests - priests as in those who offer sacrifice, not just ministers. There is also no belief in the Eucharist for most Protestants. And finally, many don’t even have correct matter - crackers and grape juice. The priesthood is central to this though, because the Mass is a Sacrifice, not only the Consecration and Communion.

Only the Catholics and the Orthodox have the Eucharist and Confession.

God bless

 

[PJD1987]

QUOTE=Monica4316;7948160]Hi Paul,

well it’s true that baptism is always valid if it’s done in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Where did you find the idea that God does not forgive Protestants of their sins? They can go to Heaven if they were ignorant, or otherwise weren’t Catholic due to no fault of their own. If they didn’t know about Confession and didn’t understand its importance through no fault of their own, the Church says they can be forgiven. Confession is the ordinary way to be forgiven, but God is not bound by it. (however if a person has an opportunity to go, they should go. What I’m talking about only applies when there is no opportunity, through no fault of the person).

For the Eucharist… for a valid consecration, we need a validly ordained priest (so Apostolic Succession), proper form, and proper matter. No Protestant group fits this criteria. None of them, not even the Anglicans, have the priesthood - because they left Apostolic Succession, or they stopped believing in it and ordaining priests - priests as in those who offer sacrifice, not just ministers. There is also no belief in the Eucharist for most Protestants. And finally, many don’t even have correct matter - crackers and grape juice. The priesthood is central to this though, because the Mass is a Sacrifice, not only the Consecration and Communion.

Only the Catholics and the Orthodox have the Eucharist and Confession.

God bless

i guess my next question would be…why is baptism valid without the priesthood, but the Eucharist is not? Not that I disagree, because I don’t, but just for the sake of the argument I’m putting forth, something to think about…

 

[marbles_the_cat]

I have heard that, in an emergency, any baptised believer can perform a baptism. That is likely why baptisms outside the church, with proper form and such, can be valid.

 

[Bendzi]

Well in terms of the Arian heresy, they did not believe Jesus was a person of God, so the Eucharist would have a completely different understanding for them.

Every sacrament has a specific formula. for baptism it happens to be saying the words “I baptize in the name of the Father, the Son. and the Holy Spirit Amen.” For the Eucharist you need a man who has received the Anointing of the Hands or Holy Orders prior to celebrating the Mass. Such regulations are just simply not a necessary part of baptism. You can also get more technical and say that there are three different types of baptisms, by water, fire, and will. Even if the baptism was not valid out side of the Church, the people receiving it probably are getting baptism by will.