Sacraments? We don't need no stinkin' sacraments

[slewi]

Here is the continuing chronicle of my RCIA experience:

Yesterday at class we were told that the graces received during sacraments have already been given to us, are already inside us, and that the sacrament itself is just a “celebration” of that. So, when you fellow RCIAers receive confirmation at Easter Vigil, the Holy Spirit is already there. You are just “celebrating”.

After 10 minutes of debate where my fiance and I pounded her with quotes from the Church Fathers and others, she said oh yes, we were right, she just misunderstood our point.

She also made the statement that the moment we are truly sorry for our sins, we are forgiven, and that confession is just a “celebration” of the forgiveness.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I think I’ve been missing all these parties…

S

 

[marty1818]

It’s very disappointing that RCIA instructors would teach this stuff. It is bad enough that cradle Catholics are not that knowledgable about their faith. You’ll be in my prayers.

God Bless,
Matt

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

slewi:

Here is the continuing chronicle of my RCIA experience:

Yesterday at class we were told that the graces received during sacraments have already been given to us, are already inside us, and that the sacrament itself is just a “celebration” of that. So, when you fellow RCIAers receive confirmation at Easter Vigil, the Holy Spirit is already there. You are just “celebrating”.

After 10 minutes of debate where my fiance and I pounded her with quotes from the Church Fathers and others, she said oh yes, we were right, she just misunderstood our point.

She also made the statement that the moment we are truly sorry for our sins, we are forgiven, and that confession is just a “celebration” of the forgiveness.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I think I’ve been missing all these parties…

S

This is either very ignorant, or obstinately heretical talk. Consider having a chat with the pastor.

Then, after you are confirmed, YOU volunteer to teach RCIA. If you are a convert, I can say that many are better informed (if they inform themselves) than many cradle Catholics.

 

[warrior71]

slewi:

Here is the continuing chronicle of my RCIA experience:

Yesterday at class we were told that the graces received during sacraments have already been given to us, are already inside us, and that the sacrament itself is just a “celebration” of that. So, when you fellow RCIAers receive confirmation at Easter Vigil, the Holy Spirit is already there. You are just “celebrating”.

After 10 minutes of debate where my fiance and I pounded her with quotes from the Church Fathers and others, she said oh yes, we were right, she just misunderstood our point.

She also made the statement that the moment we are truly sorry for our sins, we are forgiven, and that confession is just a “celebration” of the forgiveness.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I think I’ve been missing all these parties…

S

Many people say and apparently believe that the Catholic Church is moving towards a belief system closer to that proposed by Martin Luther. That may or may not be true, but it is worthy to note that Lutherans believe in two sacraments only, Baptism and the Eucharist. Maybe the RCIA instructors believe in that theory, who knows.

 

[slewi]

Lux_et_veritas:

This is either very ignorant, or obstinately heretical talk. Consider having a chat with the pastor.

Then, after you are confirmed, YOU volunteer to teach RCIA. If you are a convert, I can say that many are better informed (if they inform themselves) than many cradle Catholics.

Well, I already volunteered to head up the altar server program, and the RCIA teacher is father’s friend from his other parish. I’m gonna try to shake things up with the altar BOY (if my prayers are answered) program. I may be labeled a troublemaker if I teach the actual catechism as well…

I am not a convert, I went to catholic school, did the whole altar boy thing, and decided to come back to the church in April. I just read all I can and learn everyday.

S

 

[bellesjoy]

RCIA in many parishes in this country is in trouble. There are good people working very had in RCIA in some place who are accomplishing what is expected of them, but those that are lead by uncatechised and dissident “Catholics” are causing much damage by scandal and misinformation.

This is an area that really needs attention, but few are aware of how bad it is, because unless you actually sit through the classes you would never suspect. Those who are new to the faith don’t know the difference, until someone picks up on some of this bad instruction and questions it.

Many Bishops are not aware(which is no excuse) and many priests don’t even get involved in the programs, leaving them to people who out of ignorance or intention teach little of what it means to be Catholic.

If you know your faith and can get involved please do. We need the Truth to be upheld. Pray for better catechisis and the acceptence of the Truth.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

bellesjoy:

RCIA in many parishes in this country is in trouble. There are good people working very had in RCIA in some place who are accomplishing what is expected of them, but those that are lead by uncatechised and dissident “Catholics” are causing much damage by scandal and misinformation.

This is an area that really needs attention, but few are aware of how bad it is, because unless you actually sit through the classes you would never suspect. Those who are new to the faith don’t know the difference, until someone picks up on some of this bad instruction and questions it.

Many Bishops are not aware(which is no excuse) and many priests don’t even get involved in the programs, leaving them to people who out of ignorance or intention teach little of what it means to be Catholic.

If you know your faith and can get involved please do. We need the Truth to be upheld. Pray for better catechisis and the acceptence of the Truth.

In my parish, the pastor refuses to call it RCIA. Instead, he teaches an “adult catechism” class geared towards converts, those wanting confirmation, and parishioners simply interested in a rich catechism. It lasts about 1.5 hours each Monday from Fall to spring and has been very exciting. His knowledge is very good and he’s not holding anything back. No fluff is taught here, but rather, a good dose of reality.

Priests need to be more involved in this. My pastor believes this kind of thing is the very thing priests should be doing. The kind of curveball questions that get thrown at him should be handled by no one less than a priest with solid background or an apologist. An ordinary lay person with a little training is ill equipped to field these things, no matter how well intentioned they are.

 

[AltarMan]

warrior71:

Many people say and apparently believe that the Catholic Church is moving towards a belief system closer to that proposed by Martin Luther. That may or may not be true, but it is worthy to note that Lutherans believe in two sacraments only, Baptism and the Eucharist. Maybe the RCIA instructors believe in that theory, who knows.

And sadly, their ministers have no means in which to confect the Eucharist…

 

[AltarMan]

Lux_et_veritas:

In my parish, the pastor refuses to call it RCIA. Instead, he teaches an “adult catechism” class geared towards converts, those wanting confirmation, and parishioners simply interested in a rich catechism. It lasts about 1.5 hours each Monday from Fall to spring and has been very exciting. His knowledge is very good and he’s not holding anything back. No fluff is taught here, but rather, a good dose of reality.

Priests need to be more involved in this. My pastor believes this kind of thing is the very thing priests should be doing. The kind of curveball questions that get thrown at him should be handled by no one less than a priest with solid background or an apologist. An ordinary lay person with a little training is ill equipped to field these things, no matter how well intentioned they are.

Anyone taking on the role of “catechist” should be able to handle what was discussed in the first posting on this thread, and a great deal more. If they cannot, they have no business being catechists…

 

[arieh0310]

slewi:

Here is the continuing chronicle of my RCIA experience:

Yesterday at class we were told that the graces received during sacraments have already been given to us, are already inside us, and that the sacrament itself is just a “celebration” of that. So, when you fellow RCIAers receive confirmation at Easter Vigil, the Holy Spirit is already there. You are just “celebrating”.

I smell what you’re stepping in because I stepped in it too. The first parish I went to for RCIA was taught by a lady who wanted to be a priest, didn’t think baptism was necessary, and thought everyone gets to heaven by being good (so, what’s the point of the Church?). I then called and grilled all the RCIA instructors from the parishes around my house, all were very PC in their theology.

Finally, I found a parish (30 minute drive from the house) that had RCIA taught by the pastor; and this guy is a hard-core Catholic. How refreshing to hear Catholic doctrine being taught in a Catholic parish; how exciting it is to hear that the Church is necessary, that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of our Lord, and that all the Sacraments are channels of divine grace. What I find interesting is that there seems to be (most of the time) a correlation between how the liturgy is celebrated and how doctrine is taught. This parish has Latin, chant, altar boys only, communion rail, communion by mouth, and (when the bishop allows it) ad orientem.

As the pastor taught us in RCIA, “As you worship so you believe. As you believe so you worship.”

 

[David_Zampino]

Lux_et_veritas:

This is either very ignorant, or obstinately heretical talk. Consider having a chat with the pastor.

Then, after you are confirmed, YOU volunteer to teach RCIA. If you are a convert, I can say that many are better informed (if they inform themselves) than many cradle Catholics.

I agree on both points. Frankly, it is people like this RCIA instructor who have helped to drive people AWAY from the Church – and have turned off who knows how many more.

Blessings,

 

[arieh0310]

Lux_et_veritas:

This is either very ignorant, or obstinately heretical talk. Consider having a chat with the pastor.

Yes, please do contact the pastor. I actually submitted a letter to the parish council president telling him that thier RCIA instructor was teaching dissent. I included not only Scripture and Early Church Father quotes but also JPII’s Apostolic Letter ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS and Ratzinger’s letter clarifying that the ordination of women was no longer open for discussion. I stated that by allowing this RCIA instructor to teach dissent the parish was forming these catechumens into Protestants.

I immediately got a call from the pastor (even though I told them in my letter that I would not be attending their parish because of this experience) and he was very appologetic and said that the behavior would be corrected. The squeeky wheel gets the grease.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

arieh0310:

Yes, please do contact the pastor. I actually submitted a letter to the parish council president telling him that thier RCIA instructor was teaching dissent. I included not only Scripture and Early Church Father quotes but also JPII’s Apostolic Letter ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS and Ratzinger’s letter clarifying that the ordination of women was no longer open for discussion. I stated that by allowing this RCIA instructor to teach dissent the parish was forming these catechumens into Protestants.

I immediately got a call from the pastor (even though I told them in my letter that I would not be attending their parish because of this experience) and he was very appologetic and said that the behavior would be corrected. The squeeky wheel gets the grease.

God was giving you a grace when you found yourself disturbed enough by it to write a letter. Hence, you acted on His grace by writing the letter. Nicely done!

:clapping:

 

[JKirkLVNV]

RCIA is in need of a real shakeup in this country. Lots of people who are converting from another church or ecclesial body (baptized, informed adult Christians) are NOT supposed to even go through the entire RCIA process, yet are consistently made to do so.

 

[steve99]

slewi:

She also made the statement that the moment we are truly sorry for our sins, we are forgiven, and that confession is just a “celebration” of the forgiveness.
S

I have heard a priest say this in a retreat - and there is a point here.

In the Our Father we ask God to forgive us as we forgive others. Now we are told to forgive others unconditionally whether they ask for forgiveness or not.

So on this basis God forgives us our sins before we even ask for forgiveness. The sacrament is called the Sacrament of Reconciliation because it is reconciliation with God we are seeking. We already have his forgiveness. But unless we repent we cannot have reconciliation.

 

[arieh0310]

steve99:

I have heard a priest say this in a retreat - and there is a point here.

In the Our Father we ask God to forgive us as we forgive others. Now we are told to forgive others unconditionally whether they ask for forgiveness or not.

So on this basis God forgives us our sins before we even ask for forgiveness. The sacrament is called the Sacrament of Reconciliation because it is reconciliation with God we are seeking. We already have his forgiveness. But unless we repent we cannot have reconciliation.

*CCC: 1441 Only God forgives sins. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, “The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” and exercises this divine power: “Your sins are forgiven.” Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.

1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the “ministry of reconciliation.” The apostle is sent out “on behalf of Christ” with “God making his appeal” through him and pleading: “Be reconciled to God.”

1444 **In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the Church. **This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most notably in Christ’s solemn words to Simon Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” “The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head.”

1445 The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God.

1446 Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as "the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace."

1468 "The whole power of the sacrament of Penance consists in restoring us to God’s grace and joining us with him in an intimate friendship." Reconciliation with God is thus the purpose and effect of this sacrament. For those who receive the sacrament of Penance with contrite heart and religious disposition, reconciliation “is usually followed by peace and serenity of conscience with strong spiritual consolation.” Indeed the sacrament of Reconciliation with God brings about a true “spiritual resurrection,” restoration of the dignity and blessings of the life of the children of God, of which the most precious is friendship with God. *

Your sins are not forgiven until the priest says “I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

 

[steve99]

CCC: 1441 Only God forgives sins. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, “The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” and exercises this divine power: “Your sins are forgiven.” Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.

1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the “ministry of reconciliation.” The apostle is sent out “on behalf of Christ” with “God making his appeal” through him and pleading: “Be reconciled to God.”

1444 **In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the Church. **This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most notably in Christ’s solemn words to Simon Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” “The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head.”

1445 The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God.

1446 Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as "the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace."

1468 "The whole power of the sacrament of Penance consists in restoring us to God’s grace and joining us with him in an intimate friendship." Reconciliation with God is thus the purpose and effect of this sacrament. For those who receive the sacrament of Penance with contrite heart and religious disposition, reconciliation “is usually followed by peace and serenity of conscience with strong spiritual consolation.” Indeed the sacrament of Reconciliation with God brings about a true “spiritual resurrection,” restoration of the dignity and blessings of the life of the children of God, of which the most precious is friendship with God.

Your sins are not forgiven until the priest says “I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

OK, so is God demanding that we forgive others unconditionally, and without them asking us, when he is not prepared to do this himself?

How do you reconcile the request in the Our Father then when we ask God to forgive us as we forgive others?

Or are you saying that we do not have to forgive someone who has harmed us unless they ask for forgiveness?

 

[arieh0310]

steve99:

OK, so is God demanding that we forgive others unconditionally, and without them asking us, when he is not prepared to do this himself?

How do you reconcile the request in the Our Father then when we ask God to forgive us as we forgive others?

Or are you saying that we do not have to forgive someone who has harmed us unless they ask for forgiveness?

I don’t wish to further distract from the OP, if you would like to discuss this Sacrament in detail we can start another thread.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

AltarMan:

Anyone taking on the role of “catechist” should be able to handle what was discussed in the first posting on this thread, and a great deal more. If they cannot, they have no business being catechists…

I agree. However, have you looked at catechetical formation lately? When I was teaching 8th grade catechism and had the confirmation class, I was so outraged with the garbage that was in the text I went to the pastor and asked his permission to supplement the text with the basics. That is, a review of sin, the kinds of sin, the difference between mortal and venial, the precepts of the Church, the acts of mercy, acts of charity, and so on. I did all of this because only 3 children out of 80 raised their hand that they would like to take advantage of confession prior to confirmation. Upon inquiring as to why there were not more, it was very clear that these kids did not feel they were sinning and didn’t feel there was a need to use the Sacrament.

The end result of teaching these kids things they should have learned years earlier and had it drilled in by now, was that all but two felt the need to use the Sacrament of Penance prior to confirmation. Father had to call in the associate to help and it took almost the full two hours for them to get through everyone. When he stubmled out of his box he asked us what we had said to them, that he had never heard such robust confessions, and out of 8th graders yet. He then congratulated us.

The bottom line is we taught those kids in spite of the texts, not only the 8th grade text, but those used in years prior, and those used ealier when they made t heir first communion. I mean, talking about sin and the Sacrament of Penance at 2nd grade is a whole lot different than the discussion you would have with kids that are 14. That discussion must take place and the texts should lead them there.

All the more that these discussions should take place in the context of an RCIA class. But how many complaints do we hear that it is not being done. Rather, fluff is being passed off for Catholicism, just like it was in my catechism as a kid and the kind the DRE tried to get me to pass off as catechism to those 8th graders.

Furthermore, those coming from different faiths ask questions in such classes that are better addressed by people with the right background, especially scriptural background, since converts are often loaded with biblical awareness. The common Catholic who would get certified to teach catechism and RCIA couldn’t possibly compete in that arena. It is for this reason that my pastor believes the job belongs to him and his associates. Very sound imho, and very generous on his part to do this rather than playing his piano which he loves to do, or writing music - another favorite past time. Instead, he gives of his time. I only wish more would make this sacrifice - to spend time teaching, especially RCIA, and put off the administrative for the laity.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

steve99:

OK, so is God demanding that we forgive others unconditionally, and without them asking us, when he is not prepared to do this himself?

How do you reconcile the request in the Our Father then when we ask God to forgive us as we forgive others?

Or are you saying that we do not have to forgive someone who has harmed us unless they ask for forgiveness?

Steve, when the woman told the RCIA candidates that the Sacrament of Reconciliation was merely a celebration of that forgiveness, she watered it down - either through ignorance or obstinance. It could easily lead a convert, or even a Catholic to think that they do not need to use the Sacrament of Penance in order to get back the grace necessary to receive the Body of Christ and to be in communion with the Church.

It’s very dangerous, and from my viewpoint, a protestant way of looking at confession.

I can easily see how the masses no longer feel a need to go to confession because many believe exactly as the woman taught - that confession is more symbolic than anything. It is hardly symbolic. This is the same problem we have today with the Eucharist - people looking at it as a symbol, not the Real Presence.