Sacraments

[Nicea325]

Quote:
(Yes, the Mass is considered “ritualistic” and a “work of man” by Evangelical Protestants.)

Yeah so is life. For many of us we do the same day after day. We get up to go to work,feed the kids,take kids to school,etc,etc.

Protestants are also doing a ritual: Go to church and listen to a man/woman preach with Bible in hand. That is a ritual.

 

[Koineman]

Yeah so is life. For many of us we do the same day after day. We get up to go to work,feed the kids,take kids to school,etc,etc.

Protestants are also doing a ritual: Go to church and listen to a man/woman preach with Bible in hand. That is a ritual.

Correct. Speaking of the sermon, the 45-minute Sunday sermon is also a tradition of men (can’t find it in the Bible, not even implicitly). Sunday school is also a tradition of men.

We evangelicals have our share of traditions of men that we accept hands-down as if they came from the apostles. Some aren’t wrong per se, like the Sunday sermon and Sunday schools. Others, however (like the sinner’s prayer and altar calls) can be downright dangerous.

 

[Lincoln7]

Correct. Speaking of the sermon, the 45-minute Sunday sermon is also a tradition of men (can’t find it in the Bible, not even implicitly). Sunday school is also a tradition of men.

We evangelicals have our share of traditions of men that we accept hands-down as if they came from the apostles. Some aren’t wrong per se, like the Sunday sermon and Sunday schools. Others, however (like the sinner’s prayer and altar calls) can be downright dangerous.

I don’t want to get into this thread, but on a lengthy sermon, I can think of one example:

On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered. And a young man named Eutychus, sitting at the window, sank into a deep sleep as Paul talked still longer. And being overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead. But Paul went down and bent over him, and taking him in his arms, said, “Do not be alarmed, for his life is in him.” And when Paul had gone up and had broken bread and eaten, he conversed with them a long while, until daybreak, and so departed. And they took the youth away alive, and were not a little comforted.

Acts 20:7-12

But anyways… Not entirely related, I just wanted to chime in

Lincs

 

[Nicea325]

Correct. Speaking of the sermon, the 45-minute Sunday sermon is also a tradition of men (can’t find it in the Bible, not even implicitly). Sunday school is also a tradition of men.

We evangelicals have our share of traditions of men that we accept hands-down as if they came from the apostles. Some aren’t wrong per se, like the Sunday sermon and Sunday schools. Others, however (like the sinner’s prayer and altar calls) can be downright dangerous.

Exactly! My neighbor belongs to a Baptist Church and recently told me: Catholics follow a lot of man-made traditions.

I replied: Yep! We are humans,so whose traditions should we follow? Dogs? Cats? And so do Baptists…you follow a tradition founded a man. I bet your couples when they get married have wedding rings? God’s tradition or a tradition of men? His look…

 

[Koineman]

I don’t want to get into this thread, but on a lengthy sermon, I can think of one example:

I figured this would come up. Linc, this is only one account in the Book of Acts and therefore hardly can count as normative for the church. There is no indication in Scripture that such lengthy talks were the standard.

The problem with quoting Acts is that not everything written there is normative for the church today. For example, if Paul’s lengthy message you referenced is to be the basis for Sunday sermons, then why don’t we also follow the early church’s practice of having everything in common? What about drawing lots to decide who our leaders will be? What about meeting in private homes instead of public church buildings?

 

[Koineman]

Exactly! My neighbor belongs to a Baptist Church and recently told me: Catholics follow a lot of man-made traditions.

You should point out to them the examples of Protestant man-made traditions I mentioned. See what they say. No doubt they will probably say that even though there is no explicit mention of such things in the Bible, nevertheless, the ***principle ***is. From there you just say, “Okay, well, the Catholic ‘traditions’ you mention are also in the Bible–in principle.” Then go on to show them in the Bible how certain Catholic traditions are there in principle, even if not spelled out explicitly–that is, if that can be done.

Also point out that even the Reformers, like Luther and Calvin, were not against tradition. They just thought that tradition should be evaluated in light of the Bible. They quoted from the Church Fathers, too, just like Catholics. They retained quite a few things from the Catholic Church, such as sacraments and infant baptism.

I replied: Yep! We are humans,so whose traditions should we follow? Dogs? Cats? And so do Baptists…you follow a tradition founded a man. I bet your couples when they get married have wedding rings? God’s tradition or a tradition of men? His look…

Wedding rings are another good example, and it’s related to an institution that all Christians hold to be very sacred–marriage. They know that, and they understand that. Start with what they know, to show them what they don’t know. Show them that they are surrounded by tradition but just don’t realize it.

 

[KathleenGee]

Every human institution down to the clubs we participate, have authority through their councils, rules, guidelines, etc.

When Jesus entered Jerusalem on donkey, the crowds welcomed Him with great expectation and jubilitation…a tradition of practicing the Passover because with Passover’s remembrance, there came this element of anticipation for fulfillment in the coming Messiah.

Most followers of Christ abandoned Him when He spoke unenquivically that He would become Flesh and Blood for us. The apostles in their own writings used the Greek word ‘Is’ and Aramaic has numerous words meaning representing something, and Christ used the literal word, “is”, in Aramaic.

You can go on and on and on about interpretations…and this is where tradition comes in…not the anti-Catholic sources…but actual documentation and practice of how faith was understood and put into practice by the ancient Christians. Tertullian relates to us how one of the issues causing the pagans to want to eliminate Christianity was that they ‘ate their own god’…and you look at the Old Testament…the language of eating fruit, of eating manna to gain life and enter into divinity.

You have to have authentic interpreters of the Holy Spirit…that can only be found in those accepted in the Old Testament and those in Christ’s only Church, the universal, apostolic Church…where He said He would remain. The Holy Spirit guides us always…and proper and humble inspirations always acknowledge the Church and seek its discernment.

Catholicism is of the ecclesia…many people in many years took part in assembling the Bible. And in those times, the means of communication were not like today’s, but nevertheless through the Holy Spirit, there was common tradition of practice with belief…the essentials of the liturgy set up by 100 ad and practiced in the ancient Christian world. The elements of the liturgy then are the same today. This is not human work, but of the Holy Spirit.

And the other great gift of being in the universal Church is the experience of communion with God and with each other.

We have many Protestant friends who share with us the fruits of the Holy Spirit, but there is no communion as they are not with us on Sunday. Our communion is actual, that bears forth public unity and communion founded on Christ Himself in great diversity throughout the world. Our communion is actual and not symbolic.

 

[jlhargus]

Depending on what Protestant you talk to, you can easily show them that they, too, believe in “traditions” and “rituals” as being necessary for salvation by pointing to the neo-traditions known as the “altar call” and the “sinner’s prayer.” .

They have many other traditions of men that they have made doctrines.

Faith alone saves, born again the minute one believes, sola scriptura, all oral Apostolic Tradition now in scripture, baptism a symbol, rapture, OSAS, invisible church, irresistible grace, dispensationalism, secret rapture, none of these are found in the bible.

They also accept Apostolic Tradition such as the trinity, Immersion mode of baptism and the canon of the bible discerned by the Church thru Apostolic Tradition. There is no inspired book of the bible that list which is inspired even though the Holy Spirit could have inspired one.

Also when the Lord’s prayer is concluded with; for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory now and forever. That is an oral Tradition coming from the liturgy (worship service) being said after the Lord’s Prayer.

 

[Koineman]

They have many other traditions of men that they have made doctrines.

Faith alone saves, born again the minute one believes, sola scriptura, all oral Apostolic Tradition now in scripture, baptism a symbol, rapture, OSAS, invisible church, irresistible grace, dispensationalism, secret rapture, none of these are found in the bible.

I’m not here to debate all those theological issues, but I’ll say this, as an evangelical who is familiar with the doctrines you cite above, that some of them can be demonstrated from Scripture. I’m not saying they can be demonstrated in such a way that will satisfy every skeptic, but in such a way that a strong case can be made. I’m thinking in particular of irresistible grace and faith alone.

 

[Nicea325]

You should point out to them the examples of Protestant man-made traditions I mentioned. See what they say. No doubt they will probably say that even though there is no explicit mention of such things in the Bible, nevertheless, the ***principle ***is. From there you just say, “Okay, well, the Catholic ‘traditions’ you mention are also in the Bible–in principle.” Then go on to show them in the Bible how certain Catholic traditions are there in principle, even if not spelled out explicitly–that is, if that can be done.

Also point out that even the Reformers, like Luther and Calvin, were not against tradition. They just thought that tradition should be evaluated in light of the Bible. They quoted from the Church Fathers, too, just like Catholics. They retained quite a few things from the Catholic Church, such as sacraments and infant baptism.

Wedding rings are another good example, and it’s related to an institution that all Christians hold to be very sacred–marriage. They know that, and they understand that. Start with what they know, to show them what they don’t know. Show them that they are surrounded by tradition but just don’t realize it.

Oh trust me my friend, I have been that long and winding road a million times.

 

[jlhargus]

I don’t want to get into this thread, but on a lengthy sermon, I can think of one example: But anyways… Not entirely related, I just wanted to chime in Lincs

On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered. And a young man named Eutychus, sitting at the window, sank into a deep sleep as Paul talked still longer. And being overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead. But Paul went down and bent over him, and taking him in his arms, said, “Do not be alarmed, for his life is in him.” And when Paul had gone up and had broken bread and eaten, he conversed with them a long while, until daybreak, and so departed. And they took the youth away alive, and were not a little comforted. Acts 20:7-12

The overwhelming evidence, that can’t be refuted, for this being a lengthy sermon is the fact that Eutychus sank into a DEEP SLEEP. So now when any of us fall asleep during a sermon we can claim we are following Apostolic Tradition. Sorry I just couldn’t resist. I suppose the pastor could respond it’s also Apostolic Tradition if you fall asleep during the sermon you can die.

Actually in Acts 20:7-12 They were gathered on Sunday, the first day of the week, to celebrate Mass=Break Bread.

[Acts20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together TO BREAK BREAD, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. 8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together. 9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. 10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him. 11 ** When he therefore was come up again, and had BROKEN BREAD bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.]

Break Bread=Lord’s Supper see also NLT

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2020:7-11&version=NLT

 

[seanman611]

From what i’ve read and studied, Anglicans tend to belong in one of two categories regarding the Sacraments:

1. Anglo-Catholics, High-Church Anglicans, and even some Broad Church Anglicans tend to view all seven sacraments as “full” sacraments.
2. Most Low-Church, evangelical, and some Broad Church Anglicans view the Holy Eucharist and Baptism as being directly instituted by Christ, while the other 5 are regarded as “sacramental rites.”

 

[GKC]

From what i’ve read and studied, Anglicans tend to belong in one of two categories regarding the Sacraments:

1. Anglo-Catholics, High-Church Anglicans, and even some Broad Church Anglicans tend to view all seven sacraments as “full” sacraments.
2. Most Low-Church, evangelical, and some Broad Church Anglicans view the Holy Eucharist and Baptism as being directly instituted by Christ, while the other 5 are regarded as “sacramental rites.”

True.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[KathleenGee]

Second this…you can’t use one instance as the norm.

I was reading about those who work on documentaries…and for an event to be documented…you have to have atleast 10 experiences repeating the same event for it to be documented…

In this case, one event was documented for public revelation.

The point is the ecclesia is the work instituted by Christ through the Holy Spirit in the gathering of men; and theologies are presented to the Church for discernment in the Holy Spirit.

Catholicism is all about context…we do not look at text so much as we look at Salvation History, all parts connected to the whole…and the message is Jesus Christ, Savior, Redeemer to the world.

We experience the fruit of communion…it is communion, entering into the life of the Holy Trinity…entering into eternal life — now-- through the sacraments…not men’s opinions or convictions…and we together – sharing this communion.