Sacred Dance versus Liturgical Dance

[SMHW]

I’m not sure this forum is even the proper place to ask this question. I guess it depends.

Is sacred dance improper? Or is only liturgical dance improper?

By sacred dance, I mean something that is intended to be done as a form of communal worship but is outside of an official Mass or other formal liturgical worship.

 

[buffalo]

I’m not sure this forum is even the proper place to ask this question. I guess it depends.

Is sacred dance improper? Or is only liturgical dance improper?

By sacred dance, I mean something that is intended to be done as a form of communal worship but is outside of an official Mass or other formal liturgical worship.

Yes, it is permitted outside the Mass as Cardinal Arinze has said.

 

[puzzleannie]

I’m not sure this forum is even the proper place to ask this question. I guess it depends.

Is sacred dance improper? Or is only liturgical dance improper?

By sacred dance, I mean something that is intended to be done as a form of communal worship but is outside of an official Mass or other formal liturgical worship.

I can think of nothing in Western culture that could be classified as sacred dance acceptable in communal worship outside of Mass. I shudder to think what the liturgy barbarians will come up with, however.

 

[DWPC]

Calling a dance “sacred” is simple blasphemy, unless perhaps you’re a Druid.

We can understand you like to dance. Fine. Most people, including me, do. But its not prayer. Its not even close. In this culture, its predominantly a public mating ritual. No matter how you do it, a dance is sensual practice. Recognizing that, Christians got rid of dance in worship when we got rid of sacred rocks and trees. Its had no place in Christian worship since the Dark Ages. Or didn’t until the current fixation on the touchie-feelie took over. Prayer is a thought expressed to God. It involves our intellect, not our need for expression of self, and not our baser instincts.

And please, no responses about Daniel in the OT; we don’t kill sheep or goats for God or have multiple spouses any more either. Jews didn’t dance in the Temple, and niether did Our Lord. Sorry if this is too blunt, but seeing “sacred dance” as a topic on a Catholic forum is just too much.

 

[scylla]

“But what if it makes me feel good? I just want to participate in the Mass and I like to dance! Doesn’t Vatican II call for full participation?” “I have seen it done nicely”

These are the extent of the responses I had when I objected to this type nonsense, that they wanted to make us endure at my parish.

Scylla

 

[mercygate]

“But what if it makes me feel good? I just want to participate in the Mass and I like to dance! Doesn’t Vatican II call for full participation?” “I have seen it done nicely”

These are the extent of the responses I had when I objected to this type nonsense, that they wanted to make us endure at my parish.

Scylla

When they play the “full participation” card, you can say that the “full participation” is in the MASS and that excludes dance in the west.

I have seen spaghetti and meatballs “done nicely” but they’re not going to make it as the main course at the Eucharist.

 

[DWPC]

Calling a dance “sacred” is simple blasphemy, unless perhaps you’re a Druid.

We can understand you like to dance. Fine. Most people, including me, do. But its not prayer. Its not even close. In this culture, its predominantly a public mating ritual. No matter how you do it, a dance is sensual practice. Recognizing that, Christians got rid of dance in worship when we got rid of sacred rocks and trees. Its had no place in Christian worship since the Dark Ages. Or didn’t until the current fixation on the touchie-feelie took over. Prayer is a thought expressed to God. It involves our intellect, not our need for expression of self, and not our baser instincts.

And please, no responses about Daniel in the OT; we don’t kill sheep or goats for God or have multiple spouses any more either. Jews didn’t dance in the Temple, and niether did Our Lord. Sorry if this is too blunt, but seeing “sacred dance” as a topic on a Catholic forum is just too much.

I need to make some clarifications to my post above.

First, I shouldn’t have assumed the OP is a proponent of dancing in worship. Its not stated in the post and its an unfair assumptions. Second, I said “…no place in *Christian *worship…” when I meant to say *‘Catholic *worship’. The Shakers and others have used dancelike activity in their services.

 

[LilyM]

Calling a dance “sacred” is simple blasphemy, unless perhaps you’re a Druid.

We can understand you like to dance. Fine. Most people, including me, do. But its not prayer. Its not even close. In this culture, its predominantly a public mating ritual. No matter how you do it, a dance is sensual practice. Recognizing that, Christians got rid of dance in worship when we got rid of sacred rocks and trees. Its had no place in Christian worship since the Dark Ages. Or didn’t until the current fixation on the touchie-feelie took over. Prayer is a thought expressed to God. It involves our intellect, not our need for expression of self, and not our baser instincts.

And please, no responses about Daniel in the OT; we don’t kill sheep or goats for God or have multiple spouses any more either. Jews didn’t dance in the Temple, and niether did Our Lord. Sorry if this is too blunt, but seeing “sacred dance” as a topic on a Catholic forum is just too much.

Apart from pointing out that it was actually King David and not Daniel, and that he danced in front of the Ark of God’s very own presence, I’ll leave this comment alone. Certainly OT standards don’t automatically apply in NT times.

Dance in our time is often sensual and sexual, yes, but think of ballet, musical theatre, waltzes and bootscooting, or just of little boys and girls skipping around in the park.

Dance can be more simply joyful, or dignified and sublime, and not sexual at all. Something that is merely SENSUAL (ie of the body and the senses) is certainly still worthy to be used to praise God. Do we not use bread and wine, incense and singing, in our Masses? Aren’t these all sensual things? And is not our body, and indeed the ability to dance, itself His gift?

Of course not all art is appropriate for inside a church or during the Mass, but certainly dance, if the intent to worship God be there, can be used to his glory.

 

[DWPC]

…if the intent to worship God be there, can be used to his glory.

That can be said about any endeavor. The OP said “sacred dance” and that sets off alarm bells. We need to be very careful what we describe as “sacred” and dance isn’t even in the ball park.

I’m shocked that you’d compare bread and wine of the Eucharist to dance. I just don’t know what to say about that.

I think the push for “religious” dance is simply an effort for those who enjoy dancing to perform. That’s not reason to accept it as proper for worship. It’s easy to do what you like and offer it to God. Its sacrifice thats tough.

Sorry about the Daniel-David thing. He also took up with the married Bathsheba, but as you say, thankfully OT standards don’t apply.

 

[LilyM]

That can be said about any endeavor. The OP said “sacred dance” and that sets off alarm bells. We need to be very careful what we describe as “sacred” and dance isn’t even in the ball park.

I’m shocked that you’d compare bread and wine of the Eucharist to dance. I just don’t know what to say about that.

I think the push for “religious” dance is simply an effort for those who enjoy dancing to perform. That’s not reason to accept it as proper for worship. It’s easy to do what you like and offer it to God. Its sacrifice thats tough.

Sorry about the Daniel-David thing. He also took up with the married Bathsheba, but as you say, thankfully OT standards don’t apply.

Dancing isn’t always done to perform. If a favourite song comes on the radio and I’m at home alone I’ll do the funky chicken in my loungeroom regardless of the fact that there’s no-one there to see me.

Dance is self-expression. It makes visible the emotions - joy, sadness, love and so on - of those who perform it, and conveys those same emotions to those who see it. Go watch any decent ballet dancers doing their thing and see if you don’t find this to be true.

If you can watch two dancers portraying Romeo and Juliet and expressing their love for each other through the medium of dance, then what makes you think it’s so difficult for them to dance for God and express their love for him? Is it really so terribly unthinkable?

Again, I’m not talking of dancing in church or during the Mass, it’s not appropriate for such times. But of course dance, like music or drama or any other performing art can ALSO be an act of communication with God and, yes, sacred.

Remember that the Mass itself has a huge component of performance to it - why else do you think that
a) a priest can only say Mass if there’s at least one other person there with them (to be the equivalent of an audience), and
b) the words, gestures, clothing of the priest and so on are codified in such detail?

 

[scapularkid8]

I think that if one wants to dance to praise God, they can do that on their own time in their own home. If God has given that gift to them, then they should return, thank, and praise Him with it alone. It’s not really anyone else’s place to “participate” in: it’s for God, no one else. That’s when it’s a prayer. I admit with hesitation (and hope of humility) that I do it, but it’s for God and that’s that.

**“But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”
**(Matthew 6:6)

 

[SMHW]

Thank you all who have been participating.

I asked this question, not because I am a proponent of dance in worship. I asked because I think discussions on the appropriateness of liturgical dance are confusing. I suspected, and this thread confirms my suspicions, that many good people who agree dance does not belong at Mass, still differ over the possibility of dance outside of formal liturgies.

Some people believe that dance can be an expression of worship. Others seem to think dance might be used in private worship, but never public worship.

To the best of my knowledge there is no official Church teaching on the whether dance can ever be ‘sacred’. Is ‘sacred’, by definition, something set apart for liturgical worship? Or can something have a sacred nature apart from its use in liturgical worship?

 

[Walking_Home]

Thank you all who have been participating.

I asked this question, not because I am a proponent of dance in worship. I asked because I think discussions on the appropriateness of liturgical dance are confusing. I suspected, and this thread confirms my suspicions, that many good people who agree dance does not belong at Mass, still differ over the possibility of dance outside of formal liturgies.

Some people believe that dance can be an expression of worship. Others seem to think dance might be used in private worship, but never public worship.

To the best of my knowledge there is no official Church teaching on the whether dance can ever be ‘sacred’. Is ‘sacred’, by definition, something set apart for liturgical worship? Or can something have a sacred nature apart from its use in liturgical worship?

---

That is exactly the point. The Church has not declared dancing as “sacred”—and from what Card. Arinze stated --She will not. It is a secular demonstration that at best is to be done at a parish hall.

 

[VociMike]

Of course not all art is appropriate for inside a church or during the Mass, but certainly _________, if the intent to worship God be there, can be used to his glory.

Then the question becomes, what can be inserted in place of “______” and what cannot? What are the rules, and where do they come from?

 

[mercygate]

I think that if one wants to dance to praise God, they can do that on their own time in their own home. If God has given that gift to them, then they should return, thank, and praise Him with it alone. It’s not really anyone else’s place to “participate” in: it’s for God, no one else. That’s when it’s a prayer. I admit with hesitation (and hope of humility) that I do it, but it’s for God and that’s that.

"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you."
(Matthew 6:6)

It doesn’t even have to be “for” God. It can be “to” him or “with” him. Some people are physical and can use dance or sports as a way of touching God. I had some “peak” experiences of almost existential joy when I was a figure skater . . . . Some people pray with a sketch pad . . . King David prayed with a harp. All of these things, however, are personal unless, like some (by not means all) music, they are specifically liturgical. I agree: it’s personal. If it ain’t in the GIRM, don’t bring it into the sanctuary.

 

[PhilipCal]

Whenever I see the terms “Liturgical Dance” or Sacred Dance, all sorts of bells and whistles go off in what passes for my brain. Here’s my point, and no one has to agree with it. A dance is something you hold in the Parish Hall, or the Knights of Columbus Hall. It’s not sacred, it’s not liturgical, it’s a social event, and one in which the norms of decency should be observed. Don’t misunderstand me. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with dancing. Done in the proper venue, and in a manner beffiting a Christian, it’s great. It just isn’t great, or even good as a part of the Mass.