Sacred Oral and Written Tradition

[cfrancis]

I’m sure there is some Sacred Tradition that I can embrace as truth. However, I need to read and study the sources first.

Well, you accept the canon of SCripture, which is an extra-Biblical tradition, right?

I’m sure there is some Sacred Tradition that I can embrace as truth. However, I need to read and study the sources first. Sacred Tradition can be truth when it lines up with the Holy Scirptures.

How would you determine which ones are truth?
For instance, how do you, from Scripture, defend your belief in the canon of Scripture?

 

[mercygate]

I’m not a big fan of the concept of “oral” Tradition. The term gives the impression that Jesus sat down with the Apostles in a locked, smoke filled room and told them a bunch of stuff that they were to pass on to their successors, who would then present the “oral tradition” to the Church for belief. That is DEFNITELY not how it works, and by the time any “oral” tradition shows up in the context of doctrine, it hasn’t been “oral” for centuries. The “list” would be contained in the Catechism.

My 6th Grade catechism text gives a short definition of Tradition:

*“Tradition is the Revelation of the good news of Jesus Christ as lived out in the Church, past and present. Tradition includes teachings and practices handed on orally from the time of Jesus and the apostles. It includes the creeds, or statements, of Christian beliefs. It also includes the teachings and documents of the Church, the Church’s worship, and other practices. Tradition is the source of the Church’s ongoing understanding of the meaning of Revelation and the ways to apply it to our lives.” *

The topic of tradition goes directly to the matter of doctrinal development – which is not really doctrinal devlopment but rather the development of how we understand the doctrines already received. One of the best short treatments of doctrinal development was written a couple of years ago by Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You may have read the Catechism but it does not appear you understand what things like “Magesterium” mean.

Catholicism is a 2000 year old faith. It is rich with Scripture, with the oral teachings of the apostles, and with other things which you might call ‘small-t’ traditions.

If you have a particular question (not some kind of blanket statement a la ‘is it like the Mormons’ or “what if”). . .if you have a question as to, say, whether a Catholic practice, teaching, or work is ‘part of Sacred Tradition, part of small-t tradition, a mix of both, proceeding from but not actually part of one’, etc., you take that ‘particular’ question to the Magesterium. That is, you start with the ‘low rung’ of the hierarchy. First, check with the Catechism. Is it listed there? Not sure? Ask your priest. If he can’t provide citations, move up the ladder --ask the bishop. If necessary, you can go all the way to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Now if I may ask. . .why are you so concerned?

Are you (as a rep of nonCatholics) afraid that Catholics will somehow all be making mistakes and thinking that a ‘small-t’ tradition is somehow ‘equal to Scripture’ or will ‘miss’ a ‘Big T’ Sacred Tradition by thinking it is only a ‘little t’ one? And that by doing so we will lose our salvation?

Are nonCatholics afraid that Catholics are so caught up with traditions that they personally will not accept evidence for, and that these traditions are somehow contradicting the Bible (they aren’t but then again, we happen to believe that the problem with Protestants is that they are the ones contradicting the Bible themselves). . .and so all the Catholics who should be saved by "bible alone’ (itself not even Scripture but we won’t go there) are being ‘swept aside’ with 'extrabiblical stuff and damned?

Or is it even less fear for the ‘poor Catholics’ but more anger on the part of nonCatholics that these so-called ‘nonbiblical’ Catholic people simply by living a richer, fuller, and authoritative faith are showing up the inadequacies of ‘bible alone’ faith? That bible alone is man-made, modern, full of contradictions, nonbiblical, has no authority, and is chaotic and anarchic?

 

[Jerusha]

Oral tradition is more cultural tradition, family tradition, and personal revelation. Not necessarily Catholic, but compatible with Catholicism.

I like that:

the development of how we understand the doctrines already received

 

[mercygate]

Oral tradition is more cultural tradition, family tradition, and personal revelation. Not necessarily Catholic, but compatible with Catholicism.

I like that:

But for the bit stuff: the Mass, the canon of Scripture, the Creeds – tradition is the fabric of the faith.

 

[Reformed]

Oral tradition is more cultural tradition, family tradition, and personal revelation. Not necessarily Catholic, but compatible with Catholicism.

I like that:

Doesn’t the catechism make a distinction between oral and written tradition and Sacred Oral and Written Tradition?

I think Sacred Tradition can be both Oral and Written, correct?

 

[Reformed]

Why can’t Roman Catholic Christians supply the deposit of faith of Sacred Tradition when requested?

I believe that the Scriptures is the deposit of faith. If you believe that there is more, please provide the entire revelation that is missing. I don’t mind reading church fathers, but which church father’s work is considered inspired and God-Breathed for me to study?

 

[cfrancis]

Why can’t Roman Catholic Christians supply the deposit of faith of Sacred Tradition when requested?

I believe that the Scriptures is the deposit of faith. If you believe that there is more, please provide the entire revelation that is missing. I don’t mind reading church fathers, but which church father’s work is considered inspired and God-Breathed for me to study?

We’ve given you plenty of resources…
Now, you say “I believe that the Scriptures is the deposit of faith” which is a fine belief; but you haven’t provided any Biblical proof for this belief.
Your beief in the canon of Scripture must be supported from something…what is it?

 

[mercygate]

Why can’t Roman Catholic Christians supply the deposit of faith of Sacred Tradition when requested?

I believe that the Scriptures is the deposit of faith. If you believe that there is more, please provide the entire revelation that is missing. I don’t mind reading church fathers, but which church father’s work is considered inspired and God-Breathed for me to study?

No writing of any Church Father is considered “God-breathed.” Scripture alone enjoys the distinction of “God-breathed” inspiration. The writings of the Fathers are a record of theological tradition in the Church. Thus, they carry valued weight in the study of Christian teaching. You will find among the Fathers occasional speculatlions or opnions that do not concur with articulated doctrine. The Church uses the Fathers as a well. If a pebble occasionally comes up in the bucket, it is not included in the Magisterial corpus. For example, although he is too late to be a “Father”, Thomas Aquinas held the opinion that Our Lady was not immaculately conceived. We don’t throw Aquinas out because of that; but his teaching was not affirmed by the Magisterium.

By virtue of Christ’s Commission to the Church to “teach” and his promise to the Church to be “with you always,” magisterial teaching is definitely under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and equivalent in authority to the privileged, “God-breathed” Scriptures the Magisterium serves.

There are degrees and kinds of inspiration. “Theopneustos” is limited to the inspiration of Scripture, although a dogmatic teaching (the Resurrection, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, e.g.) enjoys the full authority of the mind of Christ.

 

[Reformed]

We’ve given you plenty of resources…
Now, you say “I believe that the Scriptures is the deposit of faith” which is a fine belief; but you haven’t provided any Biblical proof for this belief.
Your beief in the canon of Scripture must be supported from something…what is it?

Please redirect me to the Sacred Tradition sources.

 

[Reformed]

No writing of any Church Father is considered “God-breathed.” Scripture alone enjoys the distinction of “God-breathed” inspiration. The writings of the Fathers are a record of theological tradition in the Church. Thus, they carry valued weight in the study of Christian teaching. You will find among the Fathers occasional speculatlions or opnions that do not concur with articulated doctrine. The Church uses the Fathers as a well. If a pebble occasionally comes up in the bucket, it is not included in the Magisterial corpus. For example, although he is too late to be a “Father”, Thomas Aquinas held the opinion that Our Lady was not immaculately conceived. We don’t throw Aquinas out because of that; but his teaching was not affirmed by the Magisterium.

By virtue of Christ’s Commission to the Church to “teach” and his promise to the Church to be “with you always,” magisterial teaching is definitely under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and equivalent in authority to the privileged, “God-breathed” Scriptures the Magisterium serves.

There are degrees and kinds of inspiration. “Theopneustos” is limited to the inspiration of Scripture, although a dogmatic teaching (the Resurrection, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, e.g.) enjoys the full authority of the mind of Christ.

Thank you!

 

[mercygate]

Why can’t Roman Catholic Christians supply the deposit of faith of Sacred Tradition when requested?

Because tradition is a living thing and covers many different areas – as has been pointed out above: liturgy, doctrine, discipline,even art and architecture. Tradition is the life of Christ as lived out in the Church. Now how can you make a “list” out of that?

 

[mercygate]

Thank you!

:tiphat: My pleasure. It’s somewhat out of character for a Church that derives much of her operating systems from Roman Law NOT to have a “list.” But with the Holy Spirit, lists can’t really capture the big picture.

 

[cfrancis]

Because tradition is a living thing and covers many different areas – as has been pointed out above: liturgy, doctrine, discipline,even art and architecture. Tradition is the life of Christ as lived out in the Church. Now how can you make a “list” out of that?

Beautifully stated! And, I believe, your statement aligns beautifully with this from the Catechism:

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living”.73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.” 74

 

[Reformed]

:tiphat: My pleasure. It’s somewhat out of character for a Church that derives much of her operating systems from Roman Law NOT to have a “list.” But with the Holy Spirit, lists can’t really cut capture the big picture.

Do you see the same dilemma that faces Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Church, and Protestant Churches? We all claim that we are being led by God the Holy Spirit. We can qoute the same exact verses. But when we believe in mutually exclusive doctrines in regards to the Christian Faith, how do we know who has the truth. You can’t just say that because we teach apostolic sucession that the Roman Catholic Church is right. The Orthodox Church and the Protestant Churches would reject that kind of authority. God the Holy Spirit works through illumination of the Holy Scriptures as determining truth. There is no other way. You wrote that the Holy Scriptures is God-breathed and the writings of Church Fathers are not. Even the cults will teach that they are led exclusively by God the Holy Spirit.

 

[mercygate]

Beautifully stated! And, I believe, your statement aligns beautifully with this from the Catechism:

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living”.73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.” 74

Um. Thanks. My definition of Tradition comes basically from the textbook I use to teach 6th grade Catechism. “Tradrition is the Revelation of the good news of Jesus Christ as lived out in the Church, past and present.”

I have learned a couple of things teaching 6th grade:

1. A sixth grade understanding of the faith is not big enough to carry you through life.
2. Without a sixth grade understanding of the faith it is nearly impossible to grow in the faith in a way that keeps you on track.

In other words, if the platform is missing planks or not plumb, level, and true, future growth is likely to collapse somewhere down the line.

 

[cfrancis]

Um. Thanks. My definition of Tradition comes basically from the textbook I use to teach 6th grade Catechism. “Tradrition is the Revelation of the good news of Jesus Christ as lived out in the Church, past and present.”

I have learned a couple of things teaching 6th grade:

*1) A sixth grade understanding of the faith is not big enough to carry you through life.

1. Without* a sixth grade understanding of the faith it is nearly impossible to grow in the faith in a way that keeps you on track.

In other words, if the platform is missing planks or not plumb, level, and true, future growth is likely to collapse somewhere down the line.

Words I will take to heart, as, sadly, I didn’t get my 6th grade understanding of the faith until my mid-to-late 20’s (thanks to 70’s/early 80’s catechesis in my Catholic school).

 

[Reformed]

Beautifully stated! And, I believe, your statement aligns beautifully with this from the Catechism:

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living”.73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.” 74

We know that Jesus is the living Word, and we have the written Word. It is only through the written Word by the indwelling Holy Spirit that we can know that we hear the living Word. The sheep of God hear the voice of Christ through the Scriptures and follow Him. We cannot trust in extra-biblical sources because there are so many deceiving spirits in the world.

Mark 13:22

For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

John 10:1-42

10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

19 There was again a division among the Jews because of these words. 20 Many of them said, “He has a demon, and is insane; why listen to him?” 21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who is oppressed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

 

[cfrancis]

We know that Jesus is the living Word, and we have the written Word. It is only through the written Word by the indwelling Holy Spirit that we can know that we hear the living Word. **The sheep of God hear the voice of Christ through the Scriptures and follow Him. ** **We cannot trust in extra-biblical sources because there are so many deceiving spirits in the world. **
Mark 13:22

For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

John 10:1-42

10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

19 There was again a division among the Jews because of these words. 20 Many of them said, “He has a demon, and is insane; why listen to him?” 21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who is oppressed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

You state:

It is only through the written Word by the indwelling Holy Spirit that we can know that we hear the living Word. **The sheep of God hear the voice of Christ through the Scriptures **and follow Him.

yet I do not see these words in the Scripture verses you provided.

You then stated:

**We cannot trust in extra-biblical sources because there are so many deceiving spirits in the world. **

But you previously stated you actually believe an extra-biblical tradition, the canon of Scripture.

 

[javier_29]

Reformed:

Are you being honest in saying that you’re Catholic? The link provided under your name has plenty of information about how Catholics have bad theology.

monergism.com/directory/link_category/Bad-Theology/Roman-Catholicism/

It’s fine if you’re not Catholic, just be honest about it.

God Bless
Javier