Sacred Oral and Written Tradition

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We don’t know what the Septuagint of the OT was exactly that Jesus used. We don’t know if it had the DC"s or not since the earliest copy dates from around the 4th century.
Those who have received the Sacred Traditions from the Apostles do, ja4, because this is what has been handed down to us. We can also see that the writers of the NT quoted from Septuagint.

I have to say, it is a mystery to me why it is you enjoy clinging to and posting misinformation. However, for the sake of the lurkers, who may be interested in the real facts, I can assure you that the Septuagint was completed and in use long before Jesus and the Apostles came on the scene.

Your dating more accurately reflects when the Church infallibly procalimed this in council, but, just like the NT collection, it was in use prior to that date.

The term ā€œSeptuagintā€ may be misleading, since it is a Latin word for ā€œseventy,ā€ because the collection preceded the use of Latin as the common language. This term is used to refer to the collection (three centuries before Christ) Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, executed in Alexandria, Egypt.

The earliest, and best known, source for the story of the Septuagint is the Letter of Aristeas, a lengthy document that recalls how Ptolemy (Philadelphus II [285–247 BC]), desiring to augment his library in Alexandria, Egypt, commissioned a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek. Ptolemy wrote to the chief priest, Eleazar, in Jerusalem, and arranged for six translators from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. The seventy-two (altered in a few later versions to seventy or seventy-five) translators arrived in Egypt to Ptolemy’s gracious hospitality, and translated the Torah (also called the Pentateuch: the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures) in seventy-two days. Although opinions as to when this occurred differ, 282 BC is a commonly received date.

Philo of Alexandria (fl. 1st c CE) confirms that only the Torah was commissioned to be translated, and some modern scholars have concurred, noting a kind of consistency in the translation style of the Greek Penteteuch. Over the course of the three centuries following Ptolemy’s project, however, other books of the Hebrew Scriptures were translated into Greek. It is not altogether clear which book was translated when, and in what locale. It seems that sometimes a Hebrew book was translated more than once, or that a particular Greek translation was revised. In other cases, a work was composed afresh in Greek, yet was included in subsequent collections of the Scriptures. By observing technical terms and translation styles, by comparing the Greek versions to the Dead Sea Scrolls, and by comparing them to Hellenistic literature, scholars are in the process of stitching together an elusive history of the translations that eventually found their way into collections.

By Philo’s time the memory of the seventy-two translators was vibrant, an important part of Jewish life in Alexandria (Philo, Life of Moses 2.25–44). Pilgrims, both Jews and Gentiles, celebrated a yearly festival on the island where they conducted their work. The celebrity of the Septuagint and its translators remained strong in Christianity. The earliest Christian references to the translation, from the mid-second century (SS Justin Martyr and Irenaeus), credit the entire Old Testament in Greek, whether originally written in Hebrew or not, to the seventy-two. Thus Christians conflated the Septuagint with their Old Testament canon (a canon that included the so-called apocrypha). For their part, Jewish rabbis, particularly Pharisees, reacted to the Christian appropriation of the Septuagint by producing fresh translations of their Scriptures (e.g., Aquila, in 128 CE, or Symmachus in the late 2d c. CE), and discouraging the use of the Septuagint. By the second century Christian and Jewish leaders had cemented their position on the form and character of the Scriptures. By and large, Christians held to the peculiar, prophetic character of their Septuagint, and Jews rejected it.

Wherever Christianity spread, translations of the Hebrew Scriptures were made based on the LXX. Thus, it became the basis for translations made into Arabic, Ethiopic, Armenian, Old Latin, Coptic, Georgian, and Old Church Slavonic. (It was not the basis either for the Syriac version [known as the Peshitta], which is a pre-Christian translation based directly upon the Hebrew; the LXX is also not the basis for St. Jerome’s Latin translation, which, like the Peshitta, is based on the Hebrew.)

Now that I have distilled my notes from Bible history classes, I am going to post it every time you come up with this drivel.

However, I would prefer that you aspire to some intellectual honesty, and refrain from posting falsehoods.
 
The same thing has been happening to me also. In fact i not only have defend the Scriptures but also have to deal with personal attacks…
Perhaps, if you would consider not posting outright lies, then the discussion would not so often focus on your reprehensible conduct, and more on something life giving, like the Word of God?
Your faith has to be based on something. You cannot have faith in faith. That’s nonsense and unbiblical…
I agree. You do not understand the paradosis, so it is pretty much impossible for you to understand the basis for the Apostolic faith. Our faith is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, which Christ Jesus as the cornerstone. It is not extracted from the pages of the Writings, holy as they are.
Your not getting this from the meaning of the phrase. Rather you are reading into it Catholic doctrine and trying to make it mean something it does not.
The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. We don’t need to ā€œread into itā€, because it already contains what Catholics believe. We understand what is written because we read it from the mindset of those who wrote it.

I don’t think it is possible for you to grasp this, being separated from the Apostolic Teaching as you are.
You have no proof for your claim about Mary. The Scriptures do not support your claims.
That is of no concern to me, since it is an article of faith, and not of proof. I have no ā€œproofā€ that Jesus was formed from the body of Mary, either, but I believe it.
Yes. How one is cleansed is the issue.
No, it is not an issue. We are all in agreement that we are cleansed by the blood of Christ.
JA4, you KNOW that the canon of Scripture ALWAYS included the Deuterocanonical texts and that the full conciliar declaration at Trent was an affirmation of what the Church had already promulgated in the late 4th Century.
This is one of her favorite falsehoods to post, then she complains that she is confronted about being disohonest! 🤷
 
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Realcatholicgk:
Yes I know, I am trying to be understanding but I know it wont matter.😦
 
Realcatholicgk

Yes, I know… I was trying to be understanding but I know it wont help anything.
 
twb1621;4370252]The theology your Bible has limited you to has limited you to only a part of full Christianity. Start with the Latin Vulgate and compare forward through history. See what is in the ā€œTrue Bibleā€ compared to what is missing and ā€œadaptedā€ in the ā€œversionā€ you refer to.
The Latin Vulgate was a good translation that last for a very long time. However there are superior translations in the church that are actually more acurate. It is the Protestants that are producing excellent translations based on Greek and Hebrew manuscripts.
And you are still not answering questions, only skirting what is asked of you…

I can’t answer everything but only those that are most important.
 
JA4, you KNOW that the canon of Scripture ALWAYS included the Deuterocanonical texts and that the full conciliar declaration at Trent was an affirmation of what the Church had already promulgated in the late 4th Century.
Just because the books may have been in the Bible at the time before Trent they were not offically acknowledged as being inspired-inerrant. It was at Trent that these books were ā€œelevatedā€ to full canonical status.
 
justasking4
in all your questions regarding the Blessed virgin you are missing a very important point of the Bible as a whole. Love. As the commandments require, as Jesus required, we are to love as we love ourselves. Honor? we are to honor our father and mother. Not tolerate, but honor. And in wedding vows we are to honor our spouse. Simple little things. Love and honor of Mary does not show disrespect or less worship to Our Lord Jesus but quite the opposite, we honor her because we are to love her as we are to love all others and we honor her because she devoted herself to the live of our Savior from conception to His passion and beyond. She was with Him throughout it all. What less could one expect.
It is true we are to honor and love those in this world. There is no commandment to honor the dead as you state. The dead are those who no longer have life in physical bodies in this world that you can interact with.
Secondly, there is on such teaching in the NT that you are to believe Mary is your mother nor that you are to be devoted to her. The only devotion we are to have is to the Lord Jesus alone Who died and rose again for our sakes. 2 Corinthians 5:9-10 is one of many places where this is spelled when it is written–
9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

and also in verse 15 where the great apostle writes these words:
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

It is for Him alone that we are to live and die for. Not Mary, not the saints but Him alone.
 
Just because the books may have been in the Bible at the time before Trent they were not offically acknowledged as being inspired-inerrant.
This is an absurd statement. They were in the bible because they were ā€œcanonizedā€. That’s what it meant when something was in the Bible. They did not put non-canonized materials in it.

The Septuagint was a canon before Christianity. Please go back and read my post on the history of the Septuagint. Christians adopted this version because it was used by Jesus and the Apostles. It was included in 393 AD when the NT was canonized. I will post the facts for you again:

A four gospel canon (the Tetramorph) was mentioned by Irenaeus, c. 160. Adversus Haereses 3.11.8

By the early 200’s, Origen of Alexandria may have been using the same 27 books found in modern New Testament editions, though there were still disputes over the canonicity of Hebrews, James, II Peter, II and III John, and Revelation (see also Antilegomena). Likewise by 200 the Muratorian fragment shows that there existed a set of Christian writings somewhat similar to what is now the New Testament, which included four gospels and argued against objections to them. Thus, while there was a good measure of debate in the Early Church over the New Testament canon, the major writings were accepted by almost all Christians by the middle of the second century.

In his Easter letter of 367, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, gave a list of exactly the same books as what would become the New Testament canon, and he used the word ā€œcanonizedā€ (kanonizomena) in regards to them.

The African Synod of Hippo, in 393, approved the New Testament, as it stands today, together with the Septuagint books, a decision that was repeated by Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419. Pope Damasus I’s Council of Rome in 382 issued a biblical canon identical to that mentioned above. Damasus’s commissioning of the Latin Vulgate edition of the Bible, c. 383, was instrumental in the fixation of the canon in the West. In 405, Pope Innocent I sent a list of the sacred books to a Gallic bishop, Exsuperius of Toulouse. When these bishops and councils spoke on the matter, however, they were not defining something new, but instead ā€œwere ratifying what had already become the mind of the Church.ā€ Thus, from the fourth century, there existed unanimity in the West concerning the New Testament canon (as it is today), and by the fifth century the East, with a few exceptions, had come to accept the Book of Revelation and thus had come into harmony on the matter of the canon.
Code:
It was at Trent that these books were "elevated" to full canonical status.
It was ratified by Trent because the reformers made a dispute about the previously accepted books.
I can’t answer everything but only those that are most important.
Perhaps you would be able to address more questions if you spent less time posting lies?
 
Just because the books may have been in the Bible at the time before Trent they were not offically acknowledged as being inspired-inerrant. It was at Trent that these books were ā€œelevatedā€ to full canonical status.
No, it was at Trent, in response to the movement by certain people/groups to remove the OT Deuterocanon, (though why they kept the NT Deuterocanon is a mystery) that the Church declared, ā€œFor the last time, THIS is the canon of Scripture! This is the 73 Book canon that was determined 1100 years ago, and it cannot be changed.ā€
 
It is true we are to honor and love those in this world. There is no commandment to honor the dead as you state. The dead are those who no longer have life in physical bodies in this world that you can interact with.
Secondly, there is on such teaching in the NT that you are to believe Mary is your mother nor that you are to be devoted to her. The only devotion we are to have is to the Lord Jesus alone Who died and rose again for our sakes. 2 Corinthians 5:9-10 is one of many places where this is spelled when it is written–
9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

and also in verse 15 where the great apostle writes these words:
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

It is for Him alone that we are to live and die for. Not Mary, not the saints but Him alone.
I actually do understand what you are referring to here but the issue seems to be that you are still comparing the honor toward Mary as the worship of our Lord and that is not comparable. The aspects in Catholicism are two very separate and unrelated matters of Faith that unfortunately you could not understand without the fullness of the teaching. Do you honor the Apostles? Would you condemn the honor given to the mother or wife of a fallen hero? There is no simpler way to explain the difference between honor and worship. And this is what I feel sadly about. That you are so devoted yet you do not try to see what it is all about. I was in law enforcement. I witnessed many people die unjustly in their home streets among their own people. Many gave their lives for others they didn’t even know. I honored their mothers and wives with a sincere heart knowing the pain they felt. Honor is a recognized respect and sharing of love and compassion toward a person who has shared in the ultimate sacrifice of another. This is the honor we hold simplistically. Nothing compared to the worship and adoration we offer to our Savior Jesus Christ. But in recognition to His dying for us, His Mother shared that pain just as the Gospel tells us;
29 ā€œNow, Master, you may let your servant go in peace, according to your word, 30 for my eyes have seen your salvation, 31 which you prepared in sight of all the peoples, 32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and glory for your people Israel.ā€ 33 The child’s father and mother were amazed at what was said about him; 34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, ā€œBehold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted 35 (and you yourself a sword will pierce) 11 so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.ā€ .
 
twb1621;4373894]I actually do understand what you are referring to here but the issue seems to be that you are still comparing the honor toward Mary as the worship of our Lord and that is not comparable. The aspects in Catholicism are two very separate and unrelated matters of Faith that unfortunately you could not understand without the fullness of the teaching. Do you honor the Apostles?
What do you mean by honor? I’m inspired by their writings and their the lives they lived but i give them no honor as if they are part of my life. The One Whom i serve and honor is the Lord Jesus.
Would you condemn the honor given to the mother or wife of a fallen hero?
No.
There is no simpler way to explain the difference between honor and worship. And this is what I feel sadly about. That you are so devoted yet you do not try to see what it is all about. I was in law enforcement. I witnessed many people die unjustly in their home streets among their own people. Many gave their lives for others they didn’t even know. I honored their mothers and wives with a sincere heart knowing the pain they felt. Honor is a recognized respect and sharing of love and compassion toward a person who has shared in the ultimate sacrifice of another. This is the honor we hold simplistically. Nothing compared to the worship and adoration we offer to our Savior Jesus Christ.
Far more is going on than simple honor of Mary and the saints. One is that an ongoing relationship is part their lives between those who honor Mary and those here in this world. That kind of relationship is not taught in the Scriptures.
But in recognition to His dying for us, His Mother shared that pain just as the Gospel tells us;
29 ā€œNow, Master, you may let your servant go in peace, according to your word, 30 for my eyes have seen your salvation, 31 which you prepared in sight of all the peoples, 32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and glory for your people Israel.ā€ 33 The child’s father and mother were amazed at what was said about him; 34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, ā€œBehold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted 35 (and you yourself a sword will pierce) 11 so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.ā€
.
 
Ouch —:eek: Let me pull the knife out of my back----
I thought I was pretty head on with that one. 😃

Misinformation can be attributed to ignorance until one has been educated. If one persists in posting misinformation after one has been repeatedly corrected, then something else is going on.
 
What do you mean by honor? I’m inspired by their writings and their the lives they lived but i give them no honor as if they are part of my life. The One Whom i serve and honor is the Lord Jesus.
Two years here on CAF and you still don’t get the very Biblical doctrine of the communion of saints?
Far more is going on than simple honor of Mary and the saints. One is that an ongoing relationship is part their lives between those who honor Mary and those here in this world. That kind of relationship is not taught in the Scriptures.
You mean, you don’t interpret the Scriptures that way. It’s taught all right, and has always been taught by the earliest Christians, including those who penned the Scriptures.
 
"Justasking4:
[SIGN]** Justasking4: "Your faith has to be based on something. You cannot have faith in faith. That’s nonsense and unbiblical. "** [/SIGN]
I agree. You do not understand the paradosis, so it is pretty much impossible for you to understand the basis for the Apostolic faith. Our faith is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, which Christ Jesus as the cornerstone. It is not extracted from the pages of the Writings, holy as they are.

guan: Don’t YOU understand? It just Hit me! JustAsking4 has no FAITH in his FAITH! He just said that would be nonsense and unbiblical. Oppps, I dropped a mustard seed around here somewhere?:rolleyes:

The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. We don’t need to ā€œread into itā€, because it already contains what Catholics believe. We understand what is written because we read it from the mindset of those who wrote it.

AMEN!

I don’t think it is possible for you to grasp this, being separated from the Apostolic Teaching as you are.

AMEN!

That is of no concern to me, since it is an article of faith, and not of proof. I have no ā€œproofā€ that Jesus was formed from the body of Mary, either, but I believe it.

guan, I have proof. The CC said it is true! What further proof is needed? :confused:

No, it is not an issue. We are all in agreement that we are cleansed by the blood of Christ.

Yup!

This is one of her favorite falsehoods to post, then she complains that she is confronted about being disohonest!
 
What do you mean by honor? I’m inspired by their writings and their the lives they lived but i give them no honor as if they are part of my life. The One Whom i serve and honor is the Lord Jesus.

JA4 can I help? 🤷 Please?

**Honor or Honour : **(from the Latin word honos, honoris) is the evaluation of a person’s trustworthiness and social status based on that individual’s espousals and actions.
Honour is deemed exactly what determines a person’s character: whether or not the person reflects honesty, respect, integrity, or fairness.
Accordingly, individuals are assigned worth and stature based on the harmony of their actions, code of honour, and that of the society at large. Honour can be analysed as a relativistic concept, i.e., conflicts between individuals and even cultures arising as a consequence of material circumstance and ambition, rather than fundamental differences in principle. Alternatively, it can be viewed as nativist — that honour is as real to the human condition as love, and likewise derives from the formative personal bonds that establish one’s personal dignity and character.

Now, Dr Samuel Johnson, in his A Dictionary of the English Language (1755), defined honour as having several senses, the first of which was: ā€œnobility of soul, magnanimity, and a scorn of meanness.ā€

This sort of honour derives from the perceived virtuous conduct and personal integrity of the person endowed with it. On the other hand, Johnson also defined honour in relationship to ā€œreputationā€ and ā€œfameā€; to ā€œprivileges of rank or birthā€, and as ā€œrespectā€ of the kind which ā€œplaces an individual socially and determines his right to precedence.ā€ This sort of honour is not so much a function of moral or ethical excellence, as it is a consequence of power. Finally, with respect to women, honour may be synonymous with ā€œchastityā€ or ā€œvirginityā€, or in case of a married woman, ā€œfidelityā€.

Does that help???

Far more is going on than simple honor of Mary and the saints. One is that an ongoing relationship is part their lives between those who honor Mary and those here in this world. That kind of relationship is not taught in the Scriptures.

JA4, but what difference does that make? Not sure what you are saying. Can you clarify?:confused:

I am worried about you. Have you talked to anyone about your preceived paranoia? I am not a mental health professional, but I actually did watch one on TV once. 😃
I do know that people with Paranoid Personality Disorder, PPD, tend to be self-centered, self-important, defensive, and emotionally distant. :eek: SEE???
Paranoid individuals constantly suspect the motives of those around them, and believe that certain individuals, or people in general, are ā€œout to get themā€! Yea, I have read some of your posts. šŸ˜‰ We are here to help you save your soul. Don’t be so defensive. Let the saving grace of Mary and Her Son, come into your heart and dissolve the mistrust you have of our people and our Faith!šŸ‘
 
What do you mean by honor? I’m inspired by their writings and their the lives they lived but i give them no honor as if they are part of my life. The One Whom i serve and honor is the Lord Jesus.

Since my last post, this has been answered already so I wont repeat the worthy answers given to you.

No. Then you have some minimal understanding.

Far more is going on than simple honor of Mary and the saints. One is that an ongoing relationship is part their lives between those who honor Mary and those here in this world. That kind of relationship is not taught in the Scriptures.
Going on? If you believe that Mary and all the apostles, saints, and martyrs are ā€œdeadā€, your faith has no life either. All you have been doing is reading words, not ā€œthe Wordā€. We pray for you.:sad_yes:
 
Just because the books may have been in the Bible at the time before Trent they were not offically acknowledged as being inspired-inerrant. It was at Trent that these books were ā€œelevatedā€ to full canonical status.
That’s like saying that nobody believed that the Eucharist was the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ untl the Council of Florence. The only reason Trent put the key in the lock was because Protestants had started dismantling the canon.
 
Please use the quote feature. Your posts are very difficult to follow.
 
Two years here on CAF and you still don’t get the very Biblical doctrine of the communion of saints?
No. Not a bit. :o
You mean, you don’t interpret the Scriptures that way. It’s taught all right, and has always been taught by the earliest Christians, including those who penned the Scriptures.
This is just too much common sense. It is not very common, after all, you know.
 
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