Sacred Oral and Written Tradition

[RobGentner]

justasking4:

… your church makes these great claims based on Sacred Traditions …

Does it? What part of Sacred scripture were the claims based on? Did the church approved them being made? When? Where is that written in the scriptures? Do you agree with them?

… i don’t see the evidence for the claim. Its like trying to nail jello to the wall.

Did the CC authorized you to see the evidence? Does the scriptures permit your seeing it? What verse? What did Jesus say reference evidence?

Is the jello red? Are you using this as a metaphor for the blood of Christ and the HaKotel HaMa’aravi?, sometimes referred to as the Wailing Wall ? Or did you mean simply a gerenic jello and a “Kotel” plain wall? Since that is the last temple jesus visited before His death does your church teach he ate jello there? And since the jello can’t be nailed to the wall, does that mean that Jesus wasn’t nailed to the Cross? Who said that? Is it in your new ancient traditions ytou are writing? Where are your references for jello in scripture? Not your version, use another one even a written tradition will be acceptable. Do you consider Bill Crosby to be a prophet? If it isn’t in the scripture is it a new tradition? Since people eat it, could it be considered an Oral tradition?

I’m beginning to think that such a thing (Sacred Tradition) really doesn’t exist and is something that is introduced in the discussion that has no real substance. I don’t see how it tells catholics anything.

We are beginning to think your opinion doesn’t count! :dancing: Hey, I am kidding we always thought your opinion didn’t count! We are actually glad you can’t see that. What you can’t see you can’t disagree with can you? If you disagree with what you can’t see, are you really disagreeing or would you only be agreeing with yourself? What is your scriptural reference for disagreeing with yourself? :coffeeread:

i know catholics accept these things as true. However due to the nature of these sacred traditons and the claims made in regard to them, they really don’t support what the apostles taught. Your church goes far beyond what the apostles taught with so many of its doctrines.

Yes they do support what the apostles taught what they don’t support is your corrupt interpretation of what our apostles taught. That is understandable because ~ You are wrong! Wrong beliefs, wrong interpretation. wrong church! Three stricks ~ You’re OUT! :bigyikes: Get on your knees and beg for forgiveness.Jjesus is merciful!

I’m interested because the truth matters.

Now that was Funny!! :extrahappy:

If what the catholic church teaches is true, then there must be evidence for it. If you want to claim the sacred traditions support your beliefs then i would think you would want to know the foundation of these traditions i.e. who taught it, when and on what scriptural basis are they using to support the claim.

It is, There is! Not really!That our church teaches it is enough for us to be saved. but thank you!
’

This is the only way to avoid being deceived by false teachers which the scriptures warned would come into the church itself.

The only way to advoid being deceived is to avoid the counterfeit denominations, with the false teachers that you are referring to and we were in the look out for 400 years ago. The snuck into the “christian religion” but we kept them out of the CC. Yea we were worn and no the scriptures did not said “false teachers would come into the** church **itself.” you twisted things again! didn’t you? Or can you make up a scriptural quote for that?

Sadly i see catholics unwilling or fearful to hold their church accountable.

Sadder we see your posts! We judge not! We fear God! We let Jesus lead us and the HS guide us. This has worked for 2,000 years. Look at all our saints and true followers of Christ praying for us with the Blessed Mother to her only begotten Son! Praise be to God.

Thanks for an interesting post! Awaiting your answers. Inquiring minds want to know. Do you consider the National Inquirer a written source of traditions you need to follow? Do you pray to the Blue Dot?

 

[guanophore]

"justasking4:

… your church makes these great claims based on Sacred Traditions …

Does it? What part of Sacred scripture were the claims based on? Did the church approved them being made? When? Where is that written in the scriptures? Do you agree with them?

justasking4:

… i don’t see the evidence for the claim. Its like trying to nail jello to the wall.

justasking4:

Did the CC authorized you to see the evidence? Does the scriptures permit your seeing it? What verse? What did Jesus say reference evidence?
Is the jello red? Are you using this as a metaphor for the blood of Christ and the HaKotel HaMa’aravi?, sometimes referred to as the Wailing Wall ? Or did you mean simply a gerenic jello and a “Kotel” plain wall?
Since the jello can’t be nailed to the wall, does that mean that Jesus wasn’t nailed to the Cross? Where are your references for jello in scripture. If it isn’t in the scripture is it a new tradition? Since people eat it, could it be considered an Oral tradition?

etc. etc…

You have followed the wise instruction:

Prov 26:5
Answer fools according to their folly,
or they will be wise in their own eyes.

That brought to mind a number of other proverbs that are very applicable in this case:

Prov 10:14
the babbling of a fool brings ruin near.

Prov 10:18
18 Lying lips conceal hatred,
and whoever utters slander is a fool.

Prov 10:23
23 Doing wrong is like sport to a fool,

Prov 12:23
the mind of a fool broadcasts folly.

Prov 17:12
12 Better to meet a she-bear robbed of its cubs
than to confront a fool immersed in folly.

Prov 18:2
2 A fool takes no pleasure in understanding,
but only in expressing personal opinion.

Thank you for this refreshing perspective.

 

[RobGentner]

Hi Tom,:tiphat:

I know that Mark P. Shea is a convert. He writes very well I enjoyed reading what you posted and went and read his other things. He is also funny sometimes. He reminds me a little of Justasking4 who is really funny! :

Mark said that St. Thomas More proves that even lawyers can get into heaven. That reminded me of another joke :

Pope Clement VII died and went to heaven St Peter assigned him a humble but nice shack in which to spend eternity.
About a year later, he looked out the window and saw St Peter escorting St Thomas More to a large mansion.
Pope Clements VII asked “what is going on here, I get assigned a little shack, and Thomas More gets a mansion?”
St Peter said: “we have a lot of Pope’s here He is the first lawyer we ever got!”:dancing:

Can you imagine the size of Justaskings4’s mansion? Yea, Right! JA4 in Heaven hahahahahaha . oooooo, My sides are hurting! :extrahappy:

As guanophore warned beware of Justasking4.Tthey are like a pck of wolves in a flock of sheep. They come here to drag off the weak and present them to the owner of their souls. I could give you a hint on who that might be, They aren’t Catholic, christian is doubfull! :bounce:

When we talk about JA4 we say They or Them because it has been assumed, over the years, that more than one person use that screen name. One is funny, One is nice, One is evil, One is harsh. All of them are wrong!
If we are wrong and they are one person, that actually could help explain a lot actually. There is a medical term for that disorder!! They often mention God saying this or that so I think there mighteven be “voives” involved? I can’t really say for sure.

I actually think they are funny! The jokes they tell and their ability to ask the same questions over and over and over, again and again is so funny! What cracks me up the most is how they ignore questions or answer them with more questions! Hmmmm. Jewish? Nah, Jews are like our older brothers!

God Bless

 

[RobGentner]

Actually when I read JA4 They sound like I what I could have written! When I use Their same logic and words flow. I have constantly had to shorting my responses because they went over the 6,000 max.

Even answering this post got me:
The text that you have entered is too long (6834 characters). Please shorten it to 6000 characters long.
I removed your quotes, and smilies!.

I do it to entertain and enlighten others to the foolishness of JA4.:dancing:
I am glad you also are finally realizing that logic is of no use in this fight.:clapping: Their religion is based on: "life is like a box of candy, you don’t know what you will get until you open it! " :bounce:

I enjoy reading your responses to JA4. Then when they respond my heart becomes filled with rightist indignation!
When I respond my heart is lightened again. All the evil they put forth vanishes in the mirth and laughter. I am glad you realize how they must be delt with is scripturally based. I knew it already. It was revealed to me in prayer! Some of the verses you quoted, actually popped into my mind. Normally, I would advise truethseekers things, such as you do, like:

Matthew 7:21-24 "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evil doers!’
"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

MT 10:32 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.

11:22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.

MT 11:27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

MT 12:5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, `I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

MT 12:41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.

MT 16:13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

MT 16:19 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

MT 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

MT 18:18 "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

MT 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

MT 21:16 “Do you hear what these children are saying?” they asked him. “Yes,” replied Jesus, “have you never read, `From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise’?”

PS 8:2 From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise because of your enemies, to silence the foe and the avenger.

MT 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

MT 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

MT 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, `Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

MT 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
MT 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

These answer every question JA4 ever asks. But they have all been provided many times before.
I rather fight fire with fire! Stupid is as stupid does! :extrahappy:

 

[twb1621]

Your posts are wonderful, twb, but I just want to warn you, it is not likely to benefit ja4. This is a question from the bag of tricks that is really intended to pull catholics away from their faith. Eventually it will get down to this:

The goal of ja4 is to point out to Cathlics they are being deceived by “false teachers”.

Thank you for your insight and warning. This I can say with certainty. I have been away from my faith (Catholic) for many years because of my own ignorance and my own criticisms and when I began seeking a Christian Faith that I believed would be the “right one”, the true one, I researched many. What I found was incredable and disheartening with all the differences and missing texts from the Bible and deviated interpretations. So I researched the History of Christianity itself and went on from there. That started over 5 years ago and will never end with the desire I have to learn more and more. I was ashamed of myself after learning what I did. Everything I criticismed the Catholic Church for was due to my own ignorance and the Church was following the direction of Christ Himself. No one could ever sway me from that which I prooved to myself and I can only pray that Christ will in His time, be deservingly worshiped as He deserves to be. As far as people who act in the way you describ, they make fools of themselves by doing so and risk there own souls for pride and ego. I was a professional investigator and in law enforcement for many years, I know exactly what I learned is fact and I will die with my devotion in tact.
Thank you for your concern and know that we stand as one.

 

[twb1621]

RobGentner:
Thanks Rob and Guan…

Its all good, as I said, people like those you describ will only make fools of themselves and risk their own enternity. Whether they believe that or not, doesn’t change the fact, they will come to it one day. The information for them to learn has been taken from the True Word and presented to them. Those who have been given more, more is expected of them. God will reward them accordingly just as all. Oh, and that is one of my favorite jokes considering what I did for a living… :extrahappy: :clapping: :extrahappy: :grouphug:

 

[ncgolf]

What if a pope teaches something not taught by the Apostles? Is she departing from the faith?

Based on Christ’s assurance to Peter that He would not let the gates of Hell prevail against it … this cannot happen, not from a Pope. This is the beauty of Apostolic succession, it assures us that authentic, true teaching does exist. It protects the Church from the false teachings of men. Heresies can come from within the Church … look at a particular man … with the initials ML.

If the Bible is the inerrant word of God … what does that really give you, practically? If you are taught with a false understanding how does the inerrancy of the book help you? I am sure you will say the HS guides me …yes but that is individual … your assurance does nothing to convince me you are correct … it’s like believing the pitch from a used car salesman … there is a bit of truth in his pitch but where?

The words are inerrant only if the understanding of those words is inerrant. Do you claim an inerrant understanding of the Word of God, totally, not a piece but all? Can you transmit an error free understanding of the complete Deposit of Faith left by Christ to the world? I await your answer.

 

[Cinette]

You will find out that those men did not represent the Protestant Reformers, nor did they embrace Reformed Theology. You really can’t lump all Protestants together as one. There is a remnant within Protestantism too.

No you can lump all Protestants into 40 000 - 50 000 denominations each with their own interpretations etc. etc. etc.

Reformed, I have observed your intense dislike of the RCC. Why do you INSIST in coming onto these forums and bothering us. You are obviously not here to have a serious debate. You just want to be a thorn in our sides!

 

[Cinette]

Thanks Rob and Guan…

Its all good, as I said, people like those you describ will only make fools of themselves and risk their own enternity. Whether they believe that or not, doesn’t change the fact, they will come to it one day. The information for them to learn has been taken from the True Word and presented to them. Those who have been given more, more is expected of them. God will reward them accordingly just as all. Oh, and that is one of my favorite jokes considering what I did for a living…:

To Guanophore, Rob and twb…

I commend your patience and mental energy. I think you deserve a platinum medal for your extreme patience and painstaking efforts. I confess that I did not have the energy to read your answers which have been given dozens of times on different threads.

There are people who come on these forums who make valuable contributions and who really challenge us and in the end we are all rewarded. Then there are others who make fools of themselves and are so thick skinned. I think even the angels and saints must lose patience.

Blessings to you all
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :tiphat:

 

[twb1621]

To Guanophore, Rob and twb…

I commend your patience and mental energy. I think you deserve a platinum medal for your extreme patience and painstaking efforts. I confess that I did not have the energy to read your answers which have been given dozens of times on different threads.

There are people who come on these forums who make valuable contributions and who really challenge us and in the end we are all rewarded. Then there are others who make fools of themselves and are so thick skinned. I think even the angels and saints must lose patience.

Blessings to you all
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :tiphat:

I believe todays Reading says a great deal;
Reading 1
Eph 4:32

“…Let no one deceive you with empty arguments,
for because of these things
the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient.
So do not be associated with them.
For you were once darkness,
but now you are light in the Lord.
Live as children of light.”

Hey what do ya say guys, Group Hug

 

[mercygate]

How did “tradiition” work to come up with the table of contents of the Bible?

In the Councils of Hippo and Carthage in the late 4th Century, bishops met to sort out which of the hundreds of “gospels” and “epistles” circulating among the churches merited universal acceptance as authentic. The epistles of Clement of Rome to the Corinthians and the epistles of Ignatius were axed. The Didache & Shepherd of Hermas were also excluded as were some 17 gnostic gospels and letters.

Criteria were:

1. Was this document associated with an apostle or someone close to an apostle?
2. Was it in universal or nearly universal use in the liturgy of the churches?
3. Was it consistent with the rest of the Scriptures?
4. Was it consistent with the teaching of the Church?

Councils of the Church are part of how Tradition operates. The Holy Spirit lives in the living Body of Christ.

That is how a teaching that you personally may not understand to be “scriptural” may nevertheless be entirely consistent with Scripture and by no means a “teachng of men.”

Another great teaching of Tradition that is not specifically delneated in the written Word is the twofold nature and personal unity of Christ as one divine Person with two natures: divine and human. Tradition even came up with an entirely “unscriptural” word to describe it – the hypostatic union.

It is inconsistent to believe that the table of contents of the New Testament is the inspired and inerrant written Word of God and to believe the doctrine of the Holy Trinity as understood by Christians throughout the ages but not to accept the concept of Sacred Tradition since both are the product of Sacred Tradition.

The O.T. of the Septuagint was ratified at that time as well.

 

[Cinette]

I believe todays Reading says a great deal;
Reading 1
Eph 4:32

“…Let no one deceive you with empty arguments,
for because of these things
the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient.
So do not be associated with them.
For you were once darkness,
but now you are light in the Lord.
Live as children of light.”

Hey what do ya say guys, Group Hug

Yebo Gogo! :grouphug: :curtsey:

 

[justasking4]

Your posts are wonderful, twb, but I just want to warn you, it is not likely to benefit ja4. This is a question from the bag of tricks that is really intended to pull catholics away from their faith. Eventually it will get down to this:

The goal of ja4 is to point out to Cathlics they are being deceived by “false teachers”.

Your off topic again with your rant and derailing this topic View attachment 4400

 

[justasking4]

To Guanophore, Rob and twb…

I commend your patience and mental energy. I think you deserve a platinum medal for your extreme patience and painstaking efforts. I confess that I did not have the energy to read your answers which have been given dozens of times on different threads.

There are people who come on these forums who make valuable contributions and who really challenge us and in the end we are all rewarded. Then there are others who make fools of themselves and are so thick skinned. I think even the angels and saints must lose patience.

Blessings to you all
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :tiphat:

What do i get for all my efforts? It has not been easy presenting the truth in a hostile place like this…View attachment 4401

 

[Cinette]

What do i get for all my efforts? It has not been easy presenting the truth in a hostile place like this…View attachment 4401

The Catholic Church has a long and glorious history. Apostolic succession can be traced to the first century. Jesus promised that the HS would guide the Church and that He would be with us always. Jesus has kept his promise. The Catholic Church has always fought heresy and abuse - a testimony to the H Spirit’s protection and guidance.

What is the origin of your faith JA4?

 

[twb1621]

What do i get for all my efforts? It has not been easy presenting the truth in a hostile place like this…View attachment 4401

You have certainly proved that what has been suspected of you has been made clear in your lack of responding with any reasonable answer to the information that was offered you. Actually you gave no response at all to my posts, which tells me you can’t respond without showing your hand anyway and that was my intention. You only mach the truth but you certainly don’t know scripture let along the “Truth”. I wonder myself what you will get for your efforts whatever the actual goal is you seek. But I am confidant God will provide you with the answer to your question as to what you will get when the time comes.
I will remember you in my prayers

 

[ncgolf]

What do i get for all my efforts? It has not been easy presenting the truth in a hostile place like this…View attachment 4401

From a biblical standpoint you have not presented a case … from a reasoned standpoint on the necessity of Tradition you have not responded …

 

[mackbrislawn]

Questions have been asked by JA4 about Marian doctrines such as the Assumption. Was this revealed to a pope at some point in time?

This question seems to assume that the Assumption was unknown until all of a sudden it is revealed to a pope and then he tells everyone else about it.

No, the Assumption was always known from the time it happened. No revelation was needed to know about it. Actually, it is more of a matter of history–history is the story of events that happened. The Assumption happened, and the story of it was handed down to succeeding generations.

So, from that point of view, it is not really a matter of revelation, but the telling of something that happened, like the Battle of Waterloo, or the assassination of Lincoln. But unlike secular history, this history is protected by the Holy Spirit.

 

[RobGentner]

Based on Christ’s assurance to Peter that He would not let the gates of Hell prevail against it … this cannot happen, not from a Pope. This is the beauty of Apostolic succession, it assures us that authentic, true teaching does exist. It protects the Church from the false teachings of men. Heresies can come from within the Church … look at a particular man … with the initials ML.

If the Bible is the inerrant word of God … what does that really give you, practically? If you are taught with a false understanding how does the inerrancy of the book help you? I am sure you will say the HS guides me …yes but that is individual … your assurance does nothing to convince me you are correct … it’s like believing the pitch from a used car salesman … there is a bit of truth in his pitch but where?

The words are inerrant only if the understanding of those words is inerrant. Do you claim an inerrant understanding of the Word of God, totally, not a piece but all? Can you transmit an error free understanding of the complete Deposit of Faith left by Christ to the world? I await your answer.

[SIGN]Originally Posted by justasking4
What if a pope teaches something not taught by the Apostles? Is he departing from the faith?[/SIGN]

nc, you do realize JustAsking4 will take your answer for a Yes! that the Pope departed the faith! No one else could but you watch them Twist what you said! It amazes me sometimes!

God Bless

 

[justasking4]

Cinette;4343774]The Catholic Church has a long and glorious history. Apostolic succession can be traced to the first century.
What do you do when there were more than one pope on the chair of Peter?

Jesus promised that the HS would guide the Church and that He would be with us always. Jesus has kept his promise. The Catholic Church has always fought heresy and abuse - a testimony to the H Spirit’s protection and guidance.

Do you think all that the Catholic church has done has been right and done under the guidance and protection of the HS?

What is the origin of your faith JA4?

Goes back to the NT.