Sacred Scriptures Corrupted? Give the Details

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hlgomez

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Muslims claim that Sacred Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments are corrupted. In order for us to clear up these allegations of our muslims brothers and sisters, i want them to post those particular allegations on this thread and we will try to answer them one at a time.

Pio
 
I think one major Muslim argument is that only the Qur’an is composed purely of God speaking. The Torah is a mixture of God speaking and human writings: the writings of Moses, Isaiah, and various other prophets, as well as history and allegory.

And in the New Testament, we all know that there are red-letter editions that high-light the words of Jesus, as opposed to all the other words written by various apostles and so forth. And since Jesus is considered a prophet in Islam, the actual words spoken by God Himself in the New Testament are few and far between.
 
I think one major Muslim argument is that only the Qur’an is composed purely of God speaking. The Torah is a mixture of God speaking and human writings: the writings of Moses, Isaiah, and various other prophets, as well as history and allegory.
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If it’s true that Quran is composed purely of God speaking to Muhammad, then why is it full of indirect statements implying a third person speaking. In other words, if you look and study the composition of the words more closely, you will find out that it’s like an angel speaking “in behalf” of “God.” But how can we be so sure it is an angel of light? Satan can disguise as an angel of light to decieve innocent souls. That’s his mission and he will do whatever he can to deceive mankind.

On the other hand, the Church says that the Sacred Scriptures are written by human beings thru the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is God as its author, not man. Meaning the source is God himself.

Now, I want our muslim friends to state here in particular what are those verses or books they say are corrupted.

Pio
 
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hlgomez:
If it’s true that Quran is composed purely of God speaking to Muhammad, then why is it full of indirect statements implying a third person speaking. In other words, if you look and study the composition of the words more closely, you will find out that it’s like an angel speaking “in behalf” of “God.”
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Not to mention the first few verses of the Quran, where it sounds like Allah is giving praise and worship unto himself. Now in Christian theology, that may not be such a problem, but Muslims are the strict monotheist mono-personists, remember?

I guess Mohammed’s proofreaders forgot to add the token “say:” before that paragraph to try and make it make sense. Oh well…
 
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exoflare:
Not to mention the first few verses of the Quran, where it sounds like Allah is giving praise and worship unto himself. Now in Christian theology, that may not be such a problem, but Muslims are the strict monotheist mono-personists, remember?

I guess Mohammed’s proofreaders forgot to add the token “say:” before that paragraph to try and make it make sense. Oh well…
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Well, it seems pretty self-evident that the first Sura of the Qur’an is a sura of praise directed towards God:

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

6. Show us the straight way,

7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
 
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Ahimsa:
Well, it seems pretty self-evident that the first Sura of the Qur’an is a sura of praise directed towards God:

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

6. Show us the straight way,

7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
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Yeah that’s my point. The entire Quran is supposedly written from God’s point of view. God only consists of one person in Muslim theology so how is there any way this passage can be made sense of?
 
I think what he is saying is Muhammad put that as sort of a “praise/intro” kind of thing. Only my guess, though.
 
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FuzzyBunny116:
I think what he is saying is Muhammad put that as sort of a “praise/intro” kind of thing. Only my guess, though.
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Right, it’s an “intro” Sura. All Suras have a one sentence intro (“In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy”). The first Sura is different in that all of it (intro sentence along with all the other verses) is a praise directed to God. All of the other Suras have the intro sentence, followed by God’s direct speech to Muhammad.
 
let’s stick to the point of this thread. we are heading in the wrong direction.

Pio
 
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exoflare:
Yeah that’s my point. The entire Quran is supposedly written from God’s point of view. God only consists of one person in Muslim theology so how is there any way this passage can be made sense of?
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Peace

The Quran was revealed in Arabic

If you understood Arabic, you would never bring out something like this as an “inconsistency” in the Quran.

“It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to himself by the pronoun nahnu (we) for respect or glorification. He may also use the word ana (I), indicating one person, or the third person huwa (he). All three styles are used in the Quran, where Allah addresses the Arabs in their own tongue.”

islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=11712
 
It is also not necessarily true that it is written from Gods perspective, the faithah (opener) is a prayer, and it is something that we are not told to say: like in the other things, but it is something that we have been told by muhammad to say in all of our salat.

The reason we dont think it has been corrupted is because you can go to any museum in the middle east and find archaeological findings of quran tablets which say the exact same things, down to the punctuation. And theyre arent few or far between either.

Another reason that there are three ways God refers to himself is because when one tries to describe God one limits him. God is not to be limited by the functions of a man, thus not being solely referred to as ‘he’ when in the third person. Of course there is Faith’s argument as well, which is the main reason.
 
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hlgomez:
Muslims claim that Sacred Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments are corrupted. In order for us to clear up these allegations of our muslims brothers and sisters, i want them to post those particular allegations on this thread and we will try to answer them one at a time.

Pio
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Is anyone going to address the original question?
 
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Faith101:
Peace

The Quran was revealed in Arabic

If you understood Arabic, you would never bring out something like this as an “inconsistency” in the Quran.

“It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to himself by the pronoun nahnu (we) for respect or glorification. He may also use the word ana (I), indicating one person, or the third person huwa (he). All three styles are used in the Quran, where Allah addresses the Arabs in their own tongue.”

islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=11712
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I’m not sure you understood me correctly. I was talking about this:
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Ahimsa:
Well, it seems pretty self-evident that the first Sura of the Qur’an is a sura of praise directed towards God:

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

6. Show us the straight way,

7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
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I don’t see how it could be God saying those things if God is one person. I already knew the answer about when the word “we” is used.
 
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hlgomez:
Muslims claim that Sacred Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments are corrupted. In order for us to clear up these allegations of our muslims brothers and sisters, i want them to post those particular allegations on this thread and we will try to answer them one at a time.

Pio
Click to expand...
Sorry to derail the post a little while back, but yeah I think it’s pretty much heresay as well. Maybe it mentions it in the Quran, but I don’t know.
 
Greetings,

I can’t speak for other Muslims, but I just don’t frequent this forum as often as I did in the last few weeks, so it’s not the fact that I’ve been shy… 😉

By Bible corruption, Muslims mean to say that the Bible was compiled from a series of oral traditions, that, with time became embellished and corrupted before they were finally laid to paper in what we currently know as the Bible’s manuscripts.

Often two conflicting accounts wound up in the same Bible…for instance…

Which account of the Great Flood do you guys take to be true, J, or P? They’re both in the book of Genesis.

For the New Testament, how about the following example?

Matthew 27:3-8

When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.” So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day.

Acts 1:18-19

(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

If both Matthew’s and Luke’s (the Acts) accounts are to be taken as reliable, then please answer the following three questions for me:
  1. How did Judas die: die he hang himself (commit suicide), Or did he trip and fall accidentally to his death?
  2. Who bought the “Field of Blood”: the chief priests, or Judas?
  3. How did the “Field of Blood” earn its name: because it was bought with blood money, or because Judas’ entrails were spilled onto it?
Don’t you all see that the story of how Judas died was an oral legend that was shaped by people in a multitude of ways over decades, and that Matthew was given one accounting, while Luke recorded another version of the legend from his sources? Each man probably believed the story told him was true, and thus included it…and yet they cannot both be true. So that then begs the question of which account is true? What if neither is? And if only one or the other is, or neither is, what else in the tale of Jesus (PBUH) as recorded in the Bible might be untrue?

For another quick example, the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark & Luke) all say that Jesus (PBUH) was crucified on the actual day of Passover, but the Gospel of John says he was crucified the day before Passover. Are we to take all four Gospels as divinely inspired then? And if so, who is right…John, or the Synoptics?

Other such examples abound in the Bible, and the culprit is typically always what I have discussed above. I hope I’ve cited enough examples of Bible corruption to make my point.

Peace to you all.
 
Hey Exoflare,

Nobody forgot to edit Muhammad (PBUH) by adding “Say”. God is not praising Himself, but merely speaking about Himself in the third person. He is not praising Himself (though he could if He wanted to), but saying that all praise is due to Him (and is it not?). The Qur’an often switches person: get used to it.
 
Shenango -----#16:
Greetings,

I can’t speak for other Muslims, but I just don’t frequent this forum as often as I did in the last few weeks, so it’s not the fact that I’ve been shy… 😉

By Bible corruption, Muslims mean to say that the Bible was compiled from a series of oral traditions, that, with time became embellished and corrupted before they were finally laid to paper in what we currently know as the Bible’s manuscripts.

Often two conflicting accounts wound up in the same Bible…for instance…

Which account of the Great Flood do you guys take to be true, J, or P? They’re both in the book of Genesis.

For the New Testament, how about the following example?

Matthew 27:3-8

When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.” So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day.

Acts 1:18-19

(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

If both Matthew’s and Luke’s (the Acts) accounts are to be taken as reliable, then please answer the following three questions for me:
  1. How did Judas die: die he hang himself (commit suicide), Or did he trip and fall accidentally to his death?
  2. Who bought the “Field of Blood”: the chief priests, or Judas?
  3. How did the “Field of Blood” earn its name: because it was bought with blood money, or because Judas’ entrails were spilled onto it?
Don’t you all see that the story of how Judas died was an oral legend that was shaped by people in a multitude of ways over decades, and that Matthew was given one accounting, while Luke recorded another version of the legend from his sources? Each man probably believed the story told him was true, and thus included it…and yet they cannot both be true. So that then begs the question of which account is true? What if neither is? And if only one or the other is, or neither is, what else in the tale of Jesus (PBUH) as recorded in the Bible might be untrue?

For another quick example, the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark & Luke) all say that Jesus (PBUH) was crucified on the actual day of Passover, but the Gospel of John says he was crucified the day before Passover. Are we to take all four Gospels as divinely inspired then? And if so, who is right…John, or the Synoptics?

Other such examples abound in the Bible, and the culprit is typically always what I have discussed above. I hope I’ve cited enough examples of Bible corruption to make my point.

Peace to you all.
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Shenango

Maybe, just maybe, this is what happened. In Matrhew 27:3-8, Judas hanged himself.

The Jews who just follow their religious leaders did not want to have anything to do with him because as you can see from the verses, the pharisees did not want to have anything to do with him as can be seen by the fact that the pharisees did not want the pieces of silver back.

So also perhaps with the followers of Jesus. Perhaps they too did not want anything to do with him. It is a corporal work of mercy to bury the dead. But as imperfect followers of Christ, perhaps they just did not bother to take Judas down nor to bury him.

Soon, Judas’ body started to decompose as flies deposited their eggs and the fly eggs hatched into maggots – just like what happened, I think to King Herod who before his burial, his body was crawling with maggots.

With decomposition, gases were produced in the intestines of Judas and his stomach through the days started to become bigger and BIGGER LIKE A BALOON. SOON THE STOMACH AND THE INTESTINES BURST OPEN FROM THE GAS PRESSURE AND OUT SPILLED THE BLOOD AND INTESTINES, ETC OF JUDAS. (ACTS 1:18-19)

And then, EVERYONE IN JERUSAM HEARD ABOUT THIS, AND THEY CALLED THE FIELD IN THEIR LANGUAGE AKELDAMA, THAT IS, FIELD OF BLOOD.
 
The Eurasian said:
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +

Shenango

Maybe, just maybe, this is what happened. In Matrhew 27:3-8, Judas hanged himself.

The Jews who just follow their religious leaders did not want to have anything to do with him because as you can see from the verses, the pharisees did not want to have anything to do with him as can be seen by the fact that the pharisees did not want the pieces of silver back.

So also perhaps with the followers of Jesus. Perhaps they too did not want anything to do with him. It is a corporal work of mercy to bury the dead. But as imperfect followers of Christ, perhaps they just did not bother to take Judas down nor to bury him.

Soon, Judas’ body started to decompose as flies deposited their eggs and the fly eggs hatched into maggots – just like what happened, I think to King Herod who before his burial, his body was crawling with maggots.

With decomposition, gases were produced in the intestines of Judas and his stomach through the days started to become bigger and BIGGER LIKE A BALOON. SOON THE STOMACH AND THE INTESTINES BURST OPEN FROM THE GAS PRESSURE AND OUT SPILLED THE BLOOD AND INTESTINES, ETC OF JUDAS. (ACTS 1:18-19)

And then, EVERYONE IN JERUSAM HEARD ABOUT THIS, AND THEY CALLED THE FIELD IN THEIR LANGUAGE AKELDAMA, THAT IS, FIELD OF BLOOD.
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Or maybe it would be easier if someone added to the Bible a statement similar to this one contained in the Qur’an: Sura 2-106

“Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things”?

Convenient to have a statement that answers any contradictions…No?
 
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Shenango:
Greetings,

I can’t speak for other Muslims, but I just don’t frequent this forum as often as I did in the last few weeks, so it’s not the fact that I’ve been shy… 😉

By Bible corruption, Muslims mean to say that the Bible was compiled from a series of oral traditions, that, with time became embellished and corrupted before they were finally laid to paper in what we currently know as the Bible’s manuscripts.

Often two conflicting accounts wound up in the same Bible…for instance…

Which account of the Great Flood do you guys take to be true, J, or P? They’re both in the book of Genesis.

For the New Testament, how about the following example?

Matthew 27:3-8

When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.” So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day.

Acts 1:18-19

(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

If both Matthew’s and Luke’s (the Acts) accounts are to be taken as reliable, then please answer the following three questions for me:
  1. How did Judas die: die he hang himself (commit suicide), Or did he trip and fall accidentally to his death?
  2. Who bought the “Field of Blood”: the chief priests, or Judas?
  3. How did the “Field of Blood” earn its name: because it was bought with blood money, or because Judas’ entrails were spilled onto it?
Don’t you all see that the story of how Judas died was an oral legend that was shaped by people in a multitude of ways over decades, and that Matthew was given one accounting, while Luke recorded another version of the legend from his sources? Each man probably believed the story told him was true, and thus included it…and yet they cannot both be true. So that then begs the question of which account is true? What if neither is? And if only one or the other is, or neither is, what else in the tale of Jesus (PBUH) as recorded in the Bible might be untrue?

For another quick example, the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark & Luke) all say that Jesus (PBUH) was crucified on the actual day of Passover, but the Gospel of John says he was crucified the day before Passover. Are we to take all four Gospels as divinely inspired then? And if so, who is right…John, or the Synoptics?

Other such examples abound in the Bible, and the culprit is typically always what I have discussed above. I hope I’ve cited enough examples of Bible corruption to make my point.

Peace to you all.
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Great cut and paste. What anti-Christian site did you get it from?😦
 
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