Sacred Scriptures Corrupted? Give the Details

[LuigiColetta]

This is for non christians who are looking for how the body of Christ was united at the time of the Apostles. We catholics don’t need this verse, because we belong to the same Team, Body, Church; but it does support our position.

St. Peter (our first pope) and St. Paul were both on the same TEAM, parts of the same BODY, belonging to the same CHURCH (Assembly).

2 Peter
, to their own destruction.Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him****His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures

Peace,
Luigi

 

[hlgomez]

St. Peter (our first pope) and St. Paul were both on the same TEAM, parts of the same BODY, belonging to the same CHURCH (Assembly).

2 Peter
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Peace,
Luigi

BUMP.

Pio

 

[ahmadjoyia]

2 Corinthians 11:

13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14**And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. **15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

And interestingly enough, whe paired with the quote from Galatians 1:

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Written 500 years before Mohammed was born. We were well warned, and well prepared, to deal with the false prophet with the message from an “Angel of Light” that contradicted the words of Christ.

Thanks so much my dear brother Ghosty for sending the direct reference in which, if nothing else, Paul himself shows the identity of his opponents. O my dear brother, 2Corinthians 11, is the reference that I was waiting for simply because it provides another evidence of opposition to Paul that he faced from true disciples of Jesus known as “Jewish Christians”. Here, when Paul criticizes them in this letter by saying “13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ.” kindly note that Paul do admit that this assertion has nothing to do with any divine revelation from his Lord. He says “17 What I am saying I am not saying according to the Lord but as in foolishness, in this boastful state.” Hence his rebuke to the actual disciples of Jesus is from his own self made theology contrasting from that of true disciples of Jesus. Let us see as how he describe the identity of his opponents, where he describe them as “22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they** Israelites**? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I am talking like an insane person.) I am still more, with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, far worse beatings, and numerous brushes with death.”
With this narration of his own, I think, one can easily make out as who his opponents were; none other than the ministers of Christ themselves. Rest of the story is all well known as later on in which direction Christianity flourished.

 

[ahmadjoyia]

LuigiColetta:

This is for non christians who are looking for how the body of Christ was united at the time of the Apostles. We catholics don’t need this verse, because we belong to the same Team, Body, Church; but it does support our position.

St. Peter (our first pope) and St. Paul were both on the same TEAM, parts of the same BODY, belonging to the same CHURCH (Assembly).

2 Peter
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Peace,
Luigi

Thanks for your referral of 2Peter, however, have you ever read about its authorship from none others but from the Christian scholars themselves? If not, here is an excerpt from NAB on this letter of NT
"**Nevertheless, acceptance of 2 Peter into the New Testament canon met with great resistance in the early church. The oldest certain reference to it comes from Origen in the early third century. While he himself accepted both Petrine letters as canonical, he testifies that others rejected 2 Peter. As late as the fifth century some local churches still excluded it from the canon, but eventually it was universally adopted. The principal reason for the long delay was the persistent doubt that the letter stemmed from the apostle Peter.

Among modern scholars there is wide agreement that 2 Peter is a pseudonymous work, i.e., one written by a later author who attributed it to Peter according to a literary convention popular at the time. It gives the impression of being more remote in time from the apostolic period than 1 Peter; indeed, many think it is the latest work in the New Testament and assign it to the first or even the second quarter of the second century**."
I hope people would now realize as what went wrong and where in Christian history than blaming Quran for it.
May God, the same God to whom Jesus also used to pray, may help us to find the truth. Amen.

 

[hawk]

ahmadjoyia:

Thanks so much my dear brother Ghosty for sending the direct reference in which, if nothing else, Paul himself shows the identity of his opponents. O my dear brother, 2Corinthians 11, is the reference that I was waiting for simply because it provides another evidence of opposition to Paul that he faced from true disciples of Jesus known as “Jewish Christians”. Here, when Paul criticizes them in this letter by saying “13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ.” kindly note that Paul do admit that this assertion has nothing to do with any divine revelation from his Lord. He says “17 What I am saying I am not saying according to the Lord but as in foolishness, in this boastful state.” Hence his rebuke to the actual disciples of Jesus is from his own self made theology contrasting from that of true disciples of Jesus. Let us see as how he describe the identity of his opponents, where he describe them as “22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they** Israelites**? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I am talking like an insane person.) I am still more, with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, far worse beatings, and numerous brushes with death.”
With this narration of his own, I think, one can easily make out as who his opponents were; none other than the ministers of Christ themselves. Rest of the story is all well known as later on in which direction Christianity flourished.

Are you hallucinating?

Go read the passage again!

 

[Ghosty]

ahmadjoyia:

Thanks so much my dear brother Ghosty for sending the direct reference in which, if nothing else, Paul himself shows the identity of his opponents. O my dear brother, 2Corinthians 11, is the reference that I was waiting for simply because it provides another evidence of opposition to Paul that he faced from true disciples of Jesus known as “Jewish Christians”. Here, when Paul criticizes them in this letter by saying “13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ.” kindly note that Paul do admit that this assertion has nothing to do with any divine revelation from his Lord. He says “17 What I am saying I am not saying according to the Lord but as in foolishness, in this boastful state.” Hence his rebuke to the actual disciples of Jesus is from his own self made theology contrasting from that of true disciples of Jesus. Let us see as how he describe the identity of his opponents, where he describe them as “22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they** Israelites**? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I am talking like an insane person.) I am still more, with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, far worse beatings, and numerous brushes with death.”
With this narration of his own, I think, one can easily make out as who his opponents were; none other than the ministers of Christ themselves. Rest of the story is all well known as later on in which direction Christianity flourished.

I’m afraid you are stretching things past the breaking point. He is not saying that these people were actually ministers of Christ, quite the opposite! He is, in fact, laying out the absurdity of their claims. He is showing the hollowness and the falseness of their claims of being ministers of Christ.

His claims are ironic, as is indicated by the fact that he’s “speaking as a fool”. He’s saying “Anyone can say these things, but that doesn’t make them meaningful or true”.

You are fantasizing if you believe he’s saying not to trust the Jewish Christians, as he specifically mentions Kephas (Peter) as a man of authority in the Church, even mentions him as the pre-eminant minister to the Jews.

 

[Booklover]

ironic

, as is indicated by the fact that he’s “speaking as a fool”. He’s saying “Anyone can say these things, but that doesn’t make them meaningful or true”.

That can certainly be applied to Mohammed, don’t you think?

 

[ahmadjoyia]

Ghosty:

I’m afraid you are stretching things past the breaking point. He is not saying that these people were actually ministers of Christ, quite the opposite! He is, in fact, laying out the absurdity of their claims. He is showing the hollowness and the falseness of their claims of being ministers of Christ.

His claims are ironic, as is indicated by the fact that he’s “speaking as a fool”. He’s saying “Anyone can say these things, but that doesn’t make them meaningful or true”.

You are fantasizing if you believe he’s saying not to trust the Jewish Christians, as he specifically mentions Kephas (Peter) as a man of authority in the Church, even mentions him as the pre-eminant minister to the Jews.

Thank you very much brother Ghosty by acceeding to my only point to show that infact there were oppositions to the teachings of Paul by none others but by some people who were trying to, according to Paul, pervert the gospel of Christ. My point is clearly shown and hence accepted. Thanks. I have nothing more to say other than unfortunately I don’t have access, at this time, to the other side of the story by these people of the “opposition” to Paul as what they had to say about Paul’s teachings to the people.

 

[ahmadjoyia]

Booklover:

That can certainly be applied to Mohammed, don’t you think?

My dear sister Booklover, thanks for asking my opinion on this very important question as how to recognise the true from the falsehood. Let us see as what Jesus himself had said about this rather than asking others opinion. Here is a quote from Matt 7:15-23, where he says:
" 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.” Kindly note the analogy of “sheep” vs “wolves in sheep’s clothing” and we know the analogy of “lamb” vs “Jesus”. The similarity shows that the wolves would be wearing the sheep’s clothing meaning thereby that false Prophet would come in the disguise of Jesus. Kindly note this point and let us proceed further:

16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. "
So what is that fruit through which we shall recognise truth from the falsehood? The answer is also suggested by Jesus when we proceed further
**
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ * shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.*
So, from this passage it is again shown that those would be associating themselves with Jesus Christ. But Jesus clearly says that not everyone among those who associate with Jesus shall enter the kingdom of heaven except those who do the “will of my Father in heaven”. Proceed a little further would reveal their true identity. Here is the rest of the passage
**
22 "Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ **

Now anyone can guess that who are/were those who used Jesus name to convince people for their authenticity? I think, none other than from some group within the Christians; simply because, no one else consider Jesus to have any divine origin but the Christians themselves. At least Muslims don’t, but they do as what the Will of “Father” is.
Now coming back to the question of their real identity within the Christians, as Jesus also spoke of them when he said
**
23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ **”

So, my dear sister, what do you think who these people are who “practice lawlessness” when Jesus himself said that he came not to change the law but to fulfill it? Don’t you recognise by their fruit where they have forsaken whole of the law that Jesus came to fulfill? Hmm!!! Hopefully this shall open our eyes to recognise the truth. God’s blessings for all. Amen!

 

[hlgomez]

Thank you very much brother Ghosty by acceeding to my only point to show that infact there were oppositions to the teachings of Paul by none others but by some people who were trying to, according to Paul, pervert the gospel of Christ. My point is clearly shown and hence accepted. Thanks. I have nothing more to say other than unfortunately I don’t have access, at this time, to the other side of the story by these people of the “opposition” to Paul as what they had to say about Paul’s teachings to the people.

ahmadjoyia,

It seems that you knew very well who Paul was referring to.
Can you name who are those in opposition of the Gospel of Christ that Paul is referring to? Don’t just try to make generalization if you are going to prove your point. Name the names at least, because it is very clear that there were 12 apostles, not to mention the other disciples, who were all Jewish Christians. And btw, Paul too was a Jew.

And to make the matters worst, you are trying to say that the Gospel is Paul’s “teaching”. This is misleading. Where does in the Bible says that the Gospel is Paul’s sole teaching and not coming from Christ whom Paul is preaching?

Pio

 

[jhardee]

Booklover:

All I can say is that Mohammed sure worked hard to discredit Christianity! He made sure he covered all the bases! What a consummate fraud and liar he was! :bigyikes:

I agree with you on this. How can Mohammed be higher than Jesus (who didnt sin)? This talk about the Bible being corrupted is blasphemy. The koran is contradictory.

 

[Ghosty]

Thank you very much brother Ghosty by acceeding to my only point to show that infact there were oppositions to the teachings of Paul by none others but by some people who were trying to, according to Paul, pervert the gospel of Christ. My point is clearly shown and hence accepted. Thanks. I have nothing more to say other than unfortunately I don’t have access, at this time, to the other side of the story by these people of the “opposition” to Paul as what they had to say about Paul’s teachings to the people.

We never denied that there we liars and heretics in the early days. The fact that they were never accepted by ANY of the Apostles, the people who knew Christ, or any of THEIR immediate disciples should be sign enough to you that they were worthless.

Regardless, if you want to know what they believed, the Catholic Church saved it for everyone. You can read “Against Heresies” in which Ireneaus, who was the student of a personal friend of the Apostle John, explains and destroys these heretical beliefs. This work has been preserved by the Church since it was written less than 150 years after Paul wrote his letters. His work is SO accurate that when we found a hidden library of heretical works in 1945, buried by those people themselves 1700 years ago, everything that Ireneaus claimed they believed was found exactly in their writings.

He didn’t lie about a single thing, didn’t twist their beliefs or misrepresent them. He recorded them through personal interview and study, and then explained how they did NOT fit with what Jesus and the Apostles said, and he knew many of the men who personally walked with the Apostles.

The Catholic Church has never tried to hide heresies, or erase them without record. On the contrary, we have vast libraries of every philosophical and theological argument we have come up against. We consider it valuable to preserve the words of the liars just as we preserve the words of God, because we may need to study them in the future as the same lies resurface. We have absolutely nothing to hide. If the teaching didn’t come from the Apostles, the people recognized even by the Jews as being the personal friends of Jesus, then it is not to be believed. None of those “teachers” that Paul was combating came from the Apostles.

You have less than no point, I’m afraid, you have a complete rejection of proven historical fact.

 

[hlgomez]

I may add another point: muslims says odd things against Paul calling him every bit of falsehood. Then when it comes to some proven historical facts, they try to use his writings to oppose something that go against Muhammad’s recitations.:whacky:

Pio