Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture

  • Thread starter Thread starter NguyenKimPhat
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
N

NguyenKimPhat

Guest
I have always heard the debate over Sola Scriptura and the importance of Holy Tradition that is distinct from Scripture but must be honored with equal sentiments and reverenced.

Question: What is Holy Tradition? Can anyone give me a practical example of a Holy Tradition that is distinct from Scripture.
 
I have always heard the debate over Sola Scriptura and the importance of Holy Tradition that is distinct from Scripture but must be honored with equal sentiments and reverenced.

Question: What is Holy Tradition? Can anyone give me a practical example of a Holy Tradition that is distinct from Scripture.
Liturgy.
 
The Canon of scripture (list of books to be included in the Bible) is itself non-scriptural.

Which is to say you don’t have a part of the text of scripture along the lines of:

'and behold, the Lord God did say to John the Beloved 'thou shalt compile a book for me which thou shalt call ‘the Bible’. It shall consist of two sections. The first, which thou shalt call the ‘Old Testament’, shall be comprisef of the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Numbers, Joshua, Judges etc etc …

'There shall also be a ‘New Testament’. The ‘New Testament’ shalt consist of thy own writings - but only thy Gospel, a few of thy letters and the Revelation which I didst give to thee, not thy shopping lists and bad attempts at poetry, which are definitely not inspired …

‘It shalt also consist of the Gospels of thy brethren Matthew, Mark and Luke and the following letters etc etc … It shalt specifically not include the Gospels attributed to Thomas or Judas or Mary Magdalene, nor the Protevangelium of James, nor the Didache, nor the letters of my servant Clement etc etc, even though many shalt for several centuries take these books to be inspired scripture as well …’

Well, gone a bit overboard there, but I think I’ve made my point. The Canon of Scripture is definitely an example of Sacred Tradition.
 
Question: What is Holy Tradition? Can anyone give me a practical example of a Holy Tradition that is distinct from Scripture.
Holy Tradition is the preaching of the Apostles. The following example isn’t really distinct from scripture but demonstrates it’s reality.

Acts 20:35 “35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring you ought to support the weak, and to remember the word of the Lord Jesus, how he said: It is a more blessed thing to give, rather than to receive.”

This teaching isn’t anywhere recorded in the Gospels and was given to the Apostles by word of mouth and was handed down to Paul. Doctrines that come more from Tradition than Scripture are Purgatory, Mary’s Assumption, etc. Not to say that these doctrines aren’t in Scripture. I’d like to think most Catholics can agree that all doctrines of the Catholic faith are at least alluded to in the Holy Scriptures.

Pax,
Zach
 
Sacred Tradition with a capital “T” and lessons, practices, etc… that have been passed on by word of mouth and not written down and contained in Holy Scripture. It started with the Apostles, as taught to their diciples such as St. John to St. Polycarp, who then passed it on to Ireanus, and so forth. Not only to you find it in the writings of the Early Church Fathers but you find reference to it in Scripture as in the following verses:

John 21:24-25
24
It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true.
25
There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

2Thessalonians 2:15 – Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

A few examples have already been given such as the Assumption of Mary, the actual authors of the gospels (no where in any of them is there an author’s name), etc…
 
I have always heard the debate over Sola Scriptura and the importance of Holy Tradition that is distinct from Scripture but must be honored with equal sentiments and reverenced.

Question: What is Holy Tradition? Can anyone give me a practical example of a Holy Tradition that is distinct from Scripture.
Scripture is the most important Tradition. Without Tradition, we would not have the Scriptures, which were written based on what had been passed on orally from the Apostles, selected from among the many writings of the era by the successors to the Apostles, and preserved through the centuries by the Church.

Another example would be marriage laws. How does one marry? Who may one marry? Who may one not marry? Not described in Scripture, except in accounts of marriages in the Old Testament (most of which were not monogamous). Apostolic tradition.
 
are there any other Sacred Traditions that are distinct from Scripture? any more solid clear examples? how about Saint’s Feast Day… is that a Sacred Tradition? Are there any more examples?
 
are there any other Sacred Traditions that are distinct from Scripture? any more solid clear examples? how about Saint’s Feast Day… is that a Sacred Tradition? Are there any more examples?
While not belonging to the deposit of faith, private revelations have an important place in the Church.

Numerous saints and mystics have received revelations from the Blessed Mother, various Saints, Jesus and even God the Father.

Private revelation reinforces the content of public revelation (Public revelation is contained in Scripture and Tradition) and helps individuals to properly respond to public revelation.
 
My understanding is that our rule of faith is apostolic tradition both oral and written. (2 Thes 2:15). Written apostolic tradition includes the scriptures. Another example of a tradition that is not found in the posts above is worship on Sundays and fasting on Fridays.

As someone already referenced, there are teachings that are alluded to and touched on in the scriptures but which are not taught explicitly in the scriptures. One example of many is the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus formed a church to pass on these teachings and sent the Holy Spirit to lead the church into an understanding of these teachings. The writings of the Bible were not meant to create a systematic approach for teaching the faith like a text book. The church is necessary to help complete our understanding of the apostolic teaching, to give more specifics on living out or daily lives and to resolve controversies and unsettled issues on which some of the faithful disagree.
 
=NguyenKimPhat;5546289]I have always heard the debate over Sola Scriptura and the importance of Holy Tradition that is distinct from Scripture but must be honored with equal sentiments and reverenced.
Question: What is Holy Tradition? Can anyone give me a practical example of a Holy Tradition that is distinct from Scripture.
The Sign of the Cross and Holy Water come to mind.
 
Scripture is the most important Tradition. Without Tradition, we would not have the Scriptures, which were written based on what had been passed on orally from the Apostles, selected from among the many writings of the era by the successors to the Apostles, and preserved through the centuries by the Church.

Another example would be marriage laws. How does one marry? Who may one marry? Who may one not marry? Not described in Scripture, except in accounts of marriages in the Old Testament (most of which were not monogamous). Apostolic tradition.
Hello NHInsider,

I suppose the question that ought to be asked is whether or not tradition and Scripture are co-equal, or whether one is, in some measure,* subordinate* to the other.

By Roman Catholic understanding, and as your post agrees, the Sacred Scriptures are made subordinate to church tradition. This is due to the Roman Catholic view of the cause, origin, and formulation of the canon; being one created by the church rather than one discovered by her.

Is this a proper rendering of your view?

Sincerely,
WALTHER
 
Hi, Walther,

Not to butt in… 😃 but there could really not have been a ‘discovery’ possible for any of the NT Books. And, this is strictly from a historical or time-line perspective. 🙂

As I appreciate the situation, Christ created the foundation for His Chruch on Peter and that was in about 32 or 33AD. Shortly thereafter, Christ was crucified, rose from the dead on the third day and Ascended into Heaven on His Own Power 40 days later on a Thursday. On the following Sunday, Pentecost, the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles and this is recognized as the Birthday of the Church in 33AD. It would be about another 17 years before the first word of any of the NT Books was written - but, during this time the Apostles were preaching and teaching about Jesus Christ and His Divine Love for all of us.

About shortly before 400AD, three Church Councils had set the Canon of Scripture and it was approved as containing 73 Books (here is an interesting link: holytrinityparish.net/Links/Our%20Catholic%20Bibles.pdf )

So, the Catholic Church was well established before the Bible (OT & NT) was established. Another way to look at this is that no where in the Bible does Christ tell the Apostles to write anything - they are specifically instructed to preach and baptize - and they set about their task.

Does that help?
Hello NHInsider,

I suppose the question that ought to be asked is whether or not tradition and Scripture are co-equal, or whether one is, in some measure,* subordinate* to the other.

By Roman Catholic understanding, and as your post agrees, the Sacred Scriptures are made subordinate to church tradition. This is due to the Roman Catholic view of the cause, origin, and formulation of the canon; being one created by the church rather than one discovered by her.

Is this a proper rendering of your view?

Sincerely,
WALTHER
God bless
 
Hello NHInsider,

I suppose the question that ought to be asked is whether or not tradition and Scripture are co-equal, or whether one is, in some measure,* subordinate* to the other.

By Roman Catholic understanding, and as your post agrees, the Sacred Scriptures are made subordinate to church tradition. This is due to the Roman Catholic view of the cause, origin, and formulation of the canon; being one created by the church rather than one discovered by her.

Is this a proper rendering of your view?

Sincerely,
WALTHER
Hmm - It’s not quite what I’m saying and I think as I attempt to analyze the question it’s because I don’t believe that there is or can be a dichotomy. I don’t believe you can say “which is superior, Scripture or Tradition?” because Scripture IS Tradition. It’s like the non-question that Paul uses to discuss the Church - which is more worthy, a foot or an eye? You can’t divide them, and if either is detached from the body, it ceases to function. Similarly, I think, you cannot divide Scripture from Tradition, and the question of “which is superior” just doesn’t make sense. And since they cannot be in conflict, it’s a non-issue.

does that clarify at all?
 
=WALTHER-Hello NHInsider,
I suppose the question that ought to be asked is whether or not tradition and Scripture are co-equal, or whether one is, in some measure,* subordinate* to the other.
By Roman Catholic understanding, and as your post agrees, the Sacred Scriptures are made subordinate to church tradition. This is due to the Roman Catholic view of the cause, origin, and formulation of the canon; being one created by the church rather than one discovered by her.
Is this a proper rendering of your view?
Sincerely,
WALTHER
I respectfully disagree with your acessment. The Bible is the first and foremost in importance and signifiance in that it embodies who and what the CC Church is and is to be. It is the very WORDS of God…Jesus the Christ. It is ONLY from this base, this understanding that Sacred Tradition “flesh out” that which may not be NOT contained in the Bible, and that which conforms to what God’s Divenly inspired Words relate.

The OT history is not Tradition, it is HISTORY related and leading to the NT events. Even the OT Propheisies lead to Christ. The OT is fulfilled in the NT, and indeed is perfected by Christ in the NT.


***John 20:31 makes clear that not everyhing Christ said and did is written down. As there were no tape recorders, video cameras ect, this is very logically the truth. Sacred Tradition can NEVER contradict the Bible. Rather it adds to our understanding of the Bible message.

Specifically it is the acting out, the living of what the Bible teaches. ***

Love and prayers
 
Hmm - It’s not quite what I’m saying and I think as I attempt to analyze the question it’s because I don’t believe that there is or can be a dichotomy. I don’t believe you can say “which is superior, Scripture or Tradition?” because Scripture IS Tradition. It’s like the non-question that Paul uses to discuss the Church - which is more worthy, a foot or an eye? You can’t divide them, and if either is detached from the body, it ceases to function. Similarly, I think, you cannot divide Scripture from Tradition, and the question of “which is superior” just doesn’t make sense. And since they cannot be in conflict, it’s a non-issue.

does that clarify at all?
If Scripture is, as you claim, tradition, then, it would follow, that Scripture is subordinate to tradition, being created and formed by it.

However, while the New Testament Scriptures were not, indeed, written for some time after the ascension of Christ, nevertheless, the words spoken and preached by the Apostles were later recorded in those very writings inspired by the Holy Spirit, as were the sayings of Christ Himself in the Gospels. The authority given to the Apostles cannot be separated from the authority of Christ’s Word, as it seems you adopt the idea that the Apostles were somehow given Christ’s authority and then left to their own devices. Rather, the Church was given life by the Word and authority of Christ, and, likewise, is bound to it, as a wife is bound to her husband.

WALTHER
 
Hi, Walther,

Not to butt in… 😃 but there could really not have been a ‘discovery’ possible for any of the NT Books. And, this is strictly from a historical or time-line perspective. 🙂

As I appreciate the situation, Christ created the foundation for His Chruch on Peter and that was in about 32 or 33AD. Shortly thereafter, Christ was crucified, rose from the dead on the third day and Ascended into Heaven on His Own Power 40 days later on a Thursday. On the following Sunday, Pentecost, the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles and this is recognized as the Birthday of the Church in 33AD. It would be about another 17 years before the first word of any of the NT Books was written - but, during this time the Apostles were preaching and teaching about Jesus Christ and His Divine Love for all of us.

About shortly before 400AD, three Church Councils had set the Canon of Scripture and it was approved as containing 73 Books (here is an interesting link: holytrinityparish.net/Links/Our%20Catholic%20Bibles.pdf )

So, the Catholic Church was well established before the Bible (OT & NT) was established. Another way to look at this is that no where in the Bible does Christ tell the Apostles to write anything - they are specifically instructed to preach and baptize - and they set about their task.

Does that help?

God bless
The Catholic Church was founded upon the first Gospel promise:
"I will put enmity between you the serpent] and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring, he Christ] shall bruise your head Christ’s defeating of death, hell, and the devil by his resurrection from the dead to eternal and total glory], and you shall bruise his heal the innocent and bitter suffering of Christ’s cross of shame]." [Genesis 3:15]
Therefore, while the Church precedes the written form of this promise, it was only by this promise (though initially verbal in its form) that the Church was given life, hope, forgiveness, and salvation.

Is it your contention that when Christ tells the disciples:
"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you." [John 16:12-15]
that he speaks only of their verbal word and not their written Word, recording those very things spoken (those things necessary for salvation)?

And again, when Christ prays:
"Sanctify them in the truth; you word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in the truth.
I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word
, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you sent me." [John 17:17-21]
Shall we limit those for whom Christ prays only to those who hear the Apostles verbal word in the Apostles lifetime, or does the text not plainly state that all who will believe, will believe through the Apostles word, necessarily including its written form also?

As Christ Himself writes as to the founding of the Apostles faith and knowledge of the truth:
"For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me." [John 17:8]
Therefore, it is the Word that gives life, whether it be by mouth is of no consequence, as that preached by mouth is necessarily and absolutely confined to that blessed and written Word of God that has been handed down by the Church, through the creation, inspiration, preservation, and providence of the Almighty. That is to say, there can be no separation drawn between the verbal and written form of the Word, but only a distinction drawn between their form of delivery and reception. However, the verbal form, even before the written form was established with certainty by the Church, was always confined and bound to the work, will, and Word of God: hence, their can be nothing added to, subtrated from, or substituted in the Word of God, as the revelation between God and man has been completed in the work and person of Christ, and therefore need not be further extended, but merely preached and offered as the only means of salvation and eternal life.

Sincerely,
WALTHER
 
The Canon of scripture (list of books to be included in the Bible) is itself non-scriptural.

Which is to say you don’t have a part of the text of scripture along the lines of:

'and behold, the Lord God did say to John the Beloved 'thou shalt compile a book for me which thou shalt call ‘the Bible’. It shall consist of two sections. The first, which thou shalt call the ‘Old Testament’, shall be comprisef of the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Numbers, Joshua, Judges etc etc …

'There shall also be a ‘New Testament’. The ‘New Testament’ shalt consist of thy own writings - but only thy Gospel, a few of thy letters and the Revelation which I didst give to thee, not thy shopping lists and bad attempts at poetry, which are definitely not inspired …

‘It shalt also consist of the Gospels of thy brethren Matthew, Mark and Luke and the following letters etc etc … It shalt specifically not include the Gospels attributed to Thomas or Judas or Mary Magdalene, nor the Protevangelium of James, nor the Didache, nor the letters of my servant Clement etc etc, even though many shalt for several centuries take these books to be inspired scripture as well …’

Well, gone a bit overboard there, but I think I’ve made my point. The Canon of Scripture is definitely an example of Sacred Tradition.
👍👍
(PS: I** :Dlike** the exclusion of the shopping lists).
 
Hi, Walther,

I do not want to over-simplify your response here … but, it sounds like you are saying…
Therefore, it is the Word that gives life, whether it be by mouth is of no consequence, as that preached by mouth is necessarily and absolutely confined to that blessed and written Word of God that has been handed down by the Church, through the creation, inspiration, preservation, and providence of the Almighty. That is to say, there can be no separation drawn between the verbal and written form of the Word, but only a distinction drawn between their form of delivery and reception. However, the verbal form, even before the written form was established with certainty by the Church, was always confined and bound to the work, will, and Word of God: hence, their can be nothing added to, subtrated from, or substituted in the Word of God, as the revelation between God and man has been completed in the work and person of Christ, and therefore need not be further extended, but merely preached and offered as the only means of salvation and eternal life.
.

Sola Scriptura is the answer…:eek: But, stop and think about that for just a minute. The Catholic Church defined the Canon of Sacred Scripture (OT & NT) - and this was accomplished by the Divine Intervention of the Holy Spirit. This is the same Catholic Church that according to the Protestant ‘Reformers’ somehow got the Books of the NT right, but was in error for the OT. Either God directed - meaning there was NO ERROR or He didn’t (as He promised He would protect the Church from error…making God a liar!) Or, could it be that Luther & Co., got it wrong (no promise of Divine Guidance for individuals - especially, for those who create their own religion.)

Catholics believe in both Scripture and Apostolic Tradition (as opposed to mere human traditions). You may find this an informative link: catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea3.asp as it identifies the problems with only working with half of the deposit of Faith.

God bless
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top