Sacred tradition

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antoniont1

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I admit I’m a bit lazy but I appreciate some help here.

My wife is raised Protestant and she and I disagree on a few things.

She points out that it is humans who form the Church, and humans are fallible so that what the Church teaches is fallible and there can be no absolute truth - i.e., we cannot be absolutely sure that what the Church teaches is correct. While the Holy Spirit is at work within the Church, the devil is also trying to corrupt it. She also claims that Sacred Tradition has changed because what we believe is different from the Early Church (even when I say “we know more about God than the Early Church” she replied “more is different, then, and that is evidence that what has to do with people can change and thus not reliable”)

She also finds all the disagreements between different denominations a waste of time. She thinks that all we need is to know God, and not bother with anything that has to do with humans. She feels that the Catholic Church is arrogant because we think what we teach is the absolute truth and we’ve been keeping that mentality when we discuss faith with others.

What resources do you recommend? Thanks!

Antonio

PS: We’ve been reading the Bible (OT and NT) and the Catechism together. We’ve just finished reading the part about the Credo today.
 
See here for the Church Fathers. Also check the faith tracts on the forums here for the fathers depictions of the Church and the Mass.

FSC
 
antoniont1 said:
I admit I’m a bit lazy but I appreciate some help here.

My wife is raised Protestant and she and I disagree on a few things.

She points out that it is humans who form the Church, and humans are fallible so that what the Church teaches is fallible and there can be no absolute truth - i.e., we cannot be absolutely sure that what the Church teaches is correct. While the Holy Spirit is at work within the Church, the devil is also trying to corrupt it. She also claims that Sacred Tradition has changed because what we believe is different from the Early Church (even when I say “we know more about God than the Early Church” she replied “more is different, then, and that is evidence that what has to do with people can change and thus not reliable”)

She also finds all the disagreements between different denominations a waste of time. She thinks that all we need is to know God, and not bother with anything that has to do with humans. She feels that the Catholic Church is arrogant because we think what we teach is the absolute truth and we’ve been keeping that mentality when we discuss faith with others.

What resources do you recommend? Thanks!

Antonio

PS: We’ve been reading the Bible (OT and NT) and the Catechism together. We’ve just finished reading the part about the Credo today.
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First I think you are working with the right resources, the Bible, the Catechism and the world around you. (I think you should look for other resources to expand upon specific subjects in which you might need to dive deeper.)

Second you may want to find a good Catholic study group. I think it can sometimes be hard for husband and wife to try and teach each other anything and you don’t want this to become a source of relational conflict.

That said, I do think it sounds like there is a basic question you need to ask yourselves:

Do you both believe God cares how we live our lives and what we are to believe about Him?

i.e. What does it mean when one says “all we need is to know God”?

Chuck
 
Get the book “Jesus the Church and the Apostles” by Pope Benedict…from Ignatius
 
Also “Crossing the Tiber” from Steve Ray and “The Four Witnesses”

All from Ignatius
 
antoniont1 said:
I admit I’m a bit lazy but I appreciate some help here.

My wife is raised Protestant and she and I disagree on a few things.

She points out that it is humans who form the Church, and humans are fallible so that what the Church teaches is fallible and there can be no absolute truth - i.e., we cannot be absolutely sure that what the Church teaches is correct. While the Holy Spirit is at work within the Church, the devil is also trying to corrupt it. She also claims that Sacred Tradition has changed because what we believe is different from the Early Church (even when I say “we know more about God than the Early Church” she replied “more is different, then, and that is evidence that what has to do with people can change and thus not reliable”)

She also finds all the disagreements between different denominations a waste of time. She thinks that all we need is to know God, and not bother with anything that has to do with humans. She feels that the Catholic Church is arrogant because we think what we teach is the absolute truth and we’ve been keeping that mentality when we discuss faith with others.

What resources do you recommend? Thanks!

Antonio

PS: We’ve been reading the Bible (OT and NT) and the Catechism together. We’ve just finished reading the part about the Credo today.
Click to expand...
The Church is the Body of Christ. Of course it includes humans…but also necessarily Christ. Christ is the Head of the Body. The Church is not only a human institution. St. Paul, in the Bible, is perhaps the best source for this essential truth.
 
Good points and some excellent referrals for reading. I second the suggestion of Four Witnesses.

You know what is absolutely laughable about the protestant argument is the fact that they believe Scripture is infallible because God inspired the various HUMAN writers to write what they wrote. Yet, for some reason, God can’t guide the Church in the same way?

Let your wife show you specifically which traditions were different with ECF than the Church. Then investigate those.
 
antoniont1 said:
I admit I’m a bit lazy but I appreciate some help here.

My wife is raised Protestant and she and I disagree on a few things.

She points out that it is humans who form the Church, and humans
Click to expand...
Actually, that is the root of the error. It is Jesus Christ who founded and formed His Church using humans as living stones. The Church is instituted by Jesus Chris and is therefore not of human, but of Divine institution. The Authentic Teaching of Church that Jesus Christ founded can no more be in error than the one who founded it and said that he would “guide it in all Truth”. The Bible tells us that it is The Church that is the “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”.
 
Ignatius said:
Actually, that is the root of the error. It is Jesus Christ who founded and formed His Church using humans as living stones. The Church is instituted by Jesus Chris and is therefore not of human, but of Divine institution. The Authentic Teaching of Church that Jesus Christ founded can no more be in error than the one who founded it and said that he would “guide it in all Truth”. The Bible tells us that it is The Church that is the “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”.
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The Church is both human and divine. It’s not “not human” (sorry for the double negative).
 
antoniont1 said:
What resources do you recommend? Thanks!

Antonio
Click to expand...
I’ve found the website “Called to Communion” very helpful. They have a number of in depth articles that you might find useful for reading and discussing with your wife. Check out one called “Ecclesial Deism” for starters.
 
Thanks for your replies so far. At this point, we talked a bit more. I think she rejects Sola Scriptura too - she thinks since it’s been “though” human hands it is fallible too. As for the Church, she does not deny that it is divine - it is because it is also human so that it is not authoritative. Her position is rather consistent: humans are fallible, so even though the Holy Spirit may be at work, we cannot know that the Holy Spirit is always at work (and it also might have been the devil - pointing to the things the Church done wrong before), and also that what the Church taught is not what the Church teaches now (something is “added”)
 
antoniont1 said:
Thanks for your replies so far. At this point, we talked a bit more. I think she rejects Sola Scriptura too - she thinks since it’s been “though” human hands it is fallible too. As for the Church, she does not deny that it is divine - it is because it is also human so that it is not authoritative. Her position is rather consistent: humans are fallible, so even though the Holy Spirit may be at work, we cannot know that the Holy Spirit is always at work (and it also might have been the devil - pointing to the things the Church done wrong before), and also that what the Church taught is not what the Church teaches now (something is “added”)
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Do you have specifics? What “wrong” things has the Church done? Do not argue about wrongs of individual popes or clergy. We admit that we have had sinful clergy off and on throughout the centuries. They are indeed fallible, except the pope is given a grace of infallibility at certain times. God protects the Church from teaching errors, we are not claiming that there have never been mistakes made by people in the Church. So, there are definitely times when the Church was teaching the right thing, but men within the Church were doing the wrong things (married popes, corruption, etc) Also, specifically what does the Church teach now that is different from before? When she has named specifics, you can study up on those issues and reply.
 
She thinks that all we need is to know God
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And how do we know God? Since we cannot break through to the Eternal, the Eternal breaks through to us. Jesus.

Jesus showed that faith is more than “God and me.” (Vertical) Faith must also be communal (Horizontal). Faith in God cannot be divorced from participation in community. Jesus established a community. Church. Which church goes all the way back to Jesus as founder? Catholic Church.

Also remember that Jesus predicted that wolves would be found among the sheep, but His Church would never be destroyed. It has to go through human hands and be exposed to trials and challenges in order to demonstrate it’s staying power. Christ’s Church is still here 2000 years later. The amazing, miraculous thing is that those who have tried to destroy it from within and without have failed!
 
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