Sacred Tradition

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Hi All,

So many times on this forum I find Catholic apologists, in their attempt to defend Catholic doctrine, lean heavily, if not completely, on the argument that Sacred Tradition renders much information that is not explicitly found in Sacred Scripture (or the Bible, if you like).

Could someone tell me (or link me to) the earliest recorded example of Sacred Tradition that gives us salvation-critical information that is not to be found in the Bible AND not simply based on our Earliest Church Father’s interpretation of Sacred Scripture.

Any help here would be much appreciated.
 
I don’t know if it is the earliest, but the content or canon of Sacred Scripture is an early, salvationally important Sacred Tradition. It is neither explicit in Scripture nor simply a result of early church exegesis.
 
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fcfahs:
Any help here would be much appreciated.
You could try reading the Didache and see what turns up. It is suitably eartly, and contains actual information that might not be expressly in the bible, prayers for the Eucharist, how to baptize, and the like.
 
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Pug:
You could try reading the Didache and see what turns up. It is suitably eartly, and contains actual information that might not be expressly in the bible, prayers for the Eucharist, how to baptize, and the like.
Hi Pug.

Thanks for the tip. But, in reading this translation of theDidache, it appears that each of its 16 chapters merely springboard from and only further explain doctrine and precepts that are already recorded in Sacred Scripture. I can’t see where it offers anything proundly new that one could not extrapolate from carefully reading and meditating on the words of the Bible.

What I was looking for is something referenced in Sacred Tradition that provides us proundly new, salvation-critical information, thereby demonstrating that the bible is inadequate as a sole source of knowledge of God’s true salvation plan and expectations of us.

Thanks.
 
One beautiful example is given in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1345 As early as the second century we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Eucharistic celebration. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161) around the year 155, explaining what Christians did:

On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.

The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.

When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.

Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . . and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.

When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.

Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.

He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.

When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: ‘Amen.

When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the “eucharisted” bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.171

Truly an amazing thing to see. This was written around the year 150AD!!! With the detail he gives its a well grounded Tradition. What he listed is the most basic template for Sunday worship that EVERY orthodox Christian group uses even today. There is NO detailed layout like this in the Bible as to how Christians HISTORICALLY WORSHIP!!!
 
Hi Catholic Dude.

With regard to your above post (which I will not block quote)…

This is, indeed, one beautiful example of a Christian tradition that’s not explicitly found in the Sacred Scriptures (the Bible). But, it merely institutes a liturgical “how-to” structure for Sunday worship, not significantly different from the Protestant Sunday Service. As for the round-robin kissing, this was not part of the Mass before Vatican II and, I would say, not critical to our salvation. In fact, before Vatican II, there was Benediction after Mass, and female alter servers were not allowed, and it was a sacrilege for anyone but the priest to handle the host, and women wore head-coverings as instructed in the Bible.

Notwithstanding, this is all just liturgical tradition created by man and subject to change. It is not Sacred Tradition that reveals salvation-critical teachings of the Lord that are not found in our bible of Sacred Scripture.

What I am looking for is a salvation-critical teaching of the Lord, not alluded to in the Bible and only made known to us via Sacred Tradition. For example, it is not found in the Bible that we are sentence to eternal damnation (under the curse of mortal sin) if we delibertly fail to attend Mass every Sunday or on the church-defined Holy Days of Obligation. So, I assume this salvation-critical teaching of our church arises from Sacred Tradition. But, from where in Sacred Tradition does it arise and what is the directly-from-Jesus authority behind it?

Patience please.
 
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fcfahs:
Hi Catholic Dude.

What I am looking for is a salvation-critical teaching of the Lord, not alluded to in the Bible and only made known to us via Sacred Tradition. For example, it is not found in the Bible that we are sentence to eternal damnation (under the curse of mortal sin) if we delibertly fail to attend Mass every Sunday or on the church-defined Holy Days of Obligation. So, I assume this salvation-critical teaching of our church arises from Sacred Tradition. But, from where in Sacred Tradition does it arise and what is the directly-from-Jesus authority behind it?

Patience please.
Im not sure if there exists what your looking for. Even in the Ecumenical Councils when they decide something important they claim to draw from the three sources of Tradition, Scripture and Fathers. Even the concept of missing Mass has its roots in one of the 10 Commandments. I remember reading that in the Nicene Creed there were key terms (I think it was the greek term for “one in being”) that were not found in the Bible (but the concept existing) but none the less an essential Creed for Catholics.

Other than the canon of Scripture I cant think of anything that is totally devoid of Scriptural support.
 
I’d say the canon of Scripture is a big one, which is not yet addressed.

Is the Book of Daniel, for example, the larger recession as accepted by all Christian Churches excepting Protestantism? The 2nd cent. Jewish translation of Daniel into Greek by Theodotian was accepted by every Christian Church in every age, excepting by Protestants. That Sacred Tradition doesn’t seem to appear in the Bible, but can is authoritative due to Sacred Tradition.

And if you think that the Word of God is not salvationally-critical, then I suppose we are simply going to disagree on that. 😉
 
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fcfahs:
Hi All,

So many times on this forum I find Catholic apologists, in their attempt to defend Catholic doctrine, lean heavily, if not completely, on the argument that Sacred Tradition renders much information that is not explicitly found in Sacred Scripture (or the Bible, if you like).

Could someone tell me (or link me to) the earliest recorded example of Sacred Tradition that gives us salvation-critical information that is not to be found in the Bible AND not simply based on our Earliest Church Father’s interpretation of Sacred Scripture.

Any help here would be much appreciated.
Well, I don’t think there is one because your basic question is faulty, meaning no disrespect. I think there has been some sort of miscommunication about Sacred Tradition to you because there isn’t much that the ECFs didn’t comment on about what is not explicitly stated in Scripture that is considered doctrine or dogma by the Catholic Church. I don’t know who led you to think that, but I can’t think of an example, and neither can anyone else here because I don’t think there is one.

And, you also misunderstand how Catholics draw on Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Scriptures (which came out of and are in integral part of Sacred Tradition so that it is really impossible to say where one begins and the other ends). We don’t, as you put it “lean heavily” on any of these things in and of themselves. They are not “proofs” as we moderns think of the word, having been influenced by the scientific method in the way we have been. Rather, they are “witnesses”, which is an entirely different thing.

When you have a witness on the stand (or in the box) his words are listened to and sifted so that a picture of the truth emerges. That is what the Church does with Sacred Tradition (from which Sacred Scripture arose). They are not separate things that must be balanced in order to judge what is right and what is wrong.

Our dear Protestant brethren have a hard time understanding this concept because they have been so used to applying another yardstick to biblical understanding and the formation of doctrine. In order to understand the Catholic method, a Protestant must see how the Church decides such matters from the Catholic understanding and methods of doing that. Is that helpful to your inquiries?
 
fcfahs,

Here’s another… The doctrine that the Son of God is “eternally begotten of the Father.” You may disagree that this is salvationally-critical, but the Church has insisted otherwise.

You may also disagree that this is not explicit in Scripture, but a Calvinist theologian I know is not the only Protestant theologian who rejects it precisely because it is not explicit in Sacred Scripture. He and the “Bible only” Christians just like him insist that the Divine Father-Son relationship was not eternal, but began only with the Incarnation, thereby rejecting his own denomination’s teachings and the Nicene Creed as “traditions of men.” Unless it can be proved to him by Scripture, he will not believe it.

The point being, what you and I may think is implicit in Scripture and confirmed as such by apostolic tradition is rejected by many who call themselves Christian. Infant baptism is another example. Anabaptist tradition rejects it, yet Sacred Tradition insists upon its salvational significance.

That the Eucharist is a transformed Passover meal for Christianity is another example, which insists upon its sacrificial nature and that we really eat the Lamb of God and not bread. St. Cyril of Jerusalem insisted that although it appeared to be bread it wasn’t.

Another example is illustrated by a protestant sect called the Christadelphians, who reject that Jesus is Divine. I’d say that’s a major departure from a savlationally-critical dogma. Yet, they understand Scripture as teaching that Jesus was a human God-representative. Holy? Yes. Divine? No. Sacred Tradition clearly demands otherwise. But they, like others, have taken Luther’s “Scripture alone” epistemology to its logical extreme and have rejected that which Christianity has held to be an article of faith from the advent of Christianity.

Another example is Universalism (Gk “apokatastasis”). The passages of Scripture which insists upon everlasting punishment of the damned derives from a word in Scripture that can also mean “ages upon ages” but not necessarily everlasting. The Bible is ambiguous as to whether AIONAS of the AIONON means “everlasting” or “ages of the ages.”

If you’ve ever had a debate with a Universalist, they really are taking Luther’s “Scripture alone” epistemology and applying it strictly. They say that they only teach what the Bible teaches. They are correct about one thing: aion does not HAVE to mean forever, but can mean “a long time that terminates.” So, Christ’s reign being aionas of the aionon can mean only for a long time, not forever, according to their plausible yet false interpretation using ONLY the Bible alone.

Aion is an ambiguous koine Greek word. It can mean a “long time” which ends, or it can mean “everlasting.” The only reason we know that it means everlasting is because of Sacred Tradition. The koine Greek ALONE is too ambiguous to arrive at the correct understanding of Christian teaching.

The word in Greek that unambiguously means “everlasting” is ateleutetos. We know from St. Irenaeus’ text “Against Heresies” that what was handed on by Sacred Tradition is that punishment of the damned (and the reign of Christ) is everlasting. Thus, St. Ireaneus makes the gems of Sacred Scripture even brighter with Sacred Tradition, with regard to the everlasting nature of Christ’s reign and hells torment:
“… But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God, He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness. Separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy those forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself. But that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal (aionios) and without end (ateleutetos) with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal (aionios) and never-ending (ateleutetos).” [St. Irenaeus, *Against Heresies
, Book 5, Chapter 27)
 
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fcfahs:
referenced in Sacred Tradition that provides us proundly new, salvation-critical information, thereby demonstrating that the bible is inadequate as a sole
In my opinion, the bible contains enough to get the job done for an *individual *simply because you encounter God in its pages, for real. Any true encounter with God himself surely is enough. I doubt that is what you are asking, since it also obviates the need for the bible in a way, but that is how I see it, which is why I am unsuited to be an apologist.😃

[What is considered by God to be a necessary part of unfolding his plan to mankind is another deal entirely.]

It may depend on what *you *can and cannot see as somehow compatible with scripture. For example, some are not going to buy baptism by pouring, which the didache supports. I know these folks exist. That is salvation critical in their books. Or it could be abortion, also mentioned therein, and an accepted practice by some Christians. Perhaps our conversation is colored by this reality, that is, the reality of what other people have claimed is salvation critical.
 
Pug,

You’ve hit the nail upon the head there. What one man who calls himself Christian believes is “salvation-critical” is not considered as such by another “Bible only” Christian. Luther’s well-known debate with other “Bible only” Christians over the Sacrament of the Eucharist is a perfect example.

My brother used to attend a Protestant “non-denom” church. He would often tell me that the “differences” in Protestant and Catholic theology are in his view, “non-Salvational issues.” I told him that he should test his theory and ask his fellowship to pray the “Hail Mary” with him, and then he’d realize what is truly “salvational” in their view. He conceded the point.
 
Here’s another. Baptism saves you, that is, it is regenerative *ex opere operato *(by virtue of the valid sacrament). This is actually explicit in Sacred Scripture, yet still denied by Protestants.

I had a lengthy discussion with a Calvinist seminarian with regard to the same demand: “Show me the Tradition that is not explicit in Scripture!” He insisted that the early fathers were “Scripture only.” Of course, he denied the Traditional understanding that St. Peter meant literally “saves” when he affirmed: “Baptism now saves you.” (1 Pet 3:21)

St. Basil confirms the true sense of Scripture (which can be ambiguous). Contrary to my “Bible only” Calvinist friend, St. Basil asserted: “And in what way are we saved? Plainly because we were regenerate through the grace given in our baptism.” (On the Spirit,10:26) Either he had to concede St. Basil was not a “Bible alone” Christian as he previously asserted, or that the Bible teaches exactly what St. Basil just stated. He denied both. :rolleyes:

St. Basil speaks of another unwritten tradition that we must hold as apostolic and authoritative, which is the defense of the Holy Spirit in our doxology:
"In answer to the objection that the doxology in the form ‘with the Spirit’ has NO written authority, we maintain that if there is not other instance of that which is unwritten, then this must not be recieved. But if the great number of our mysteries [ie. sacraments] are admitted into our constitution without written authority, then, in company with many others, let us recieve this one. For I HOLD IT APOSTOLIC TO ABIDE BY THE UNWRITTEN TRADITIONS. ‘I praise you,’ it is said, ‘that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances as I have delivered them to you;’ and ‘Hold fast the traditions which ye have been taught whether by by word, or our Epistle.’ One of these traditions is the practice which is now before us, which they who ordained from the beginning *, rooted firmly in the churches, delivering it to their SUCCESSORS, and its use through long custom advances pace by pace with time. (Holy Spirit, 71)
*
 
Tradition illuminates scripture – that is, it gives us deeper understanding. It is not Catholic doctrine that scripture and tradition are separate, with something in one that is not in the other.

The great value of tradition is that it carries information about what those who learned their Christianity from the Apostles believed as a result of their personal contact with the Apostles. Christianity is what it was (general revelation is ended.) Therefore, if we have questions about what the Apostles taught beyond the bare bones in the New Testament, we look to tradition and see what their immediate followers believed and practiced.

The Didache is an example that has been cited. Pro-abortionists often say, “Show me in the Bible where abortion is forbidden.” The Didache (being a systematized teaching) is where you find the early Christian position on abortion. It takes the general prohibition against murder and applies it to the case of killing the unborn (and newly-born).
 
I always thought the Trinity is something revealed through Tradition not the Bible. It’s certainly not mentioned in the Bible. While we see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the Bible, I don’t think the revelation of them is nearly as complete as what Tradition has brought us. It would also qualify as an amplification of what’s in the Bible, per vern’s post.

Tradition is also what tells us the Bible is inspired - that is not in the Bible either, although there are certainly clues to that effect :D.
 
Harry Gamble, in The New Testament Canon, Its Making and Meaning, concludes
Historically speaking, then, tradition precedes scripture. As a result, the problem of “scripture and tradition,” which has customarily belonged to historical and systematic theology, has entered the field of exegisis, and exegesis has made it impossible to sustain the dichotomy beween the two. Therefore it is increasingly common for Protestant scholars to charactrize the canonical literature as “a specific form of tradition” or as a “freezing” or “transcription” of tradition at a particular stage. This way of speaking marks an approximation toward the Catholic distinction between scripture and tradition in terms of written and unwritten tradition.
(My emphasis.)

Gamble was Associate Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Virginia at the time he wrote. His work clearly illustrates the principle that the deeper one studies Christianity, the closer one approaches Catholicism.
 
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fcfahs:
What I am looking for is a salvation-critical teaching of the Lord, not alluded to in the Bible and only made known to us via Sacred Tradition. For example, it is not found in the Bible that we are sentence to eternal damnation (under the curse of mortal sin) if we delibertly fail to attend Mass every Sunday or on the church-defined Holy Days of Obligation. So, I assume this salvation-critical teaching of our church arises from Sacred Tradition. But, from where in Sacred Tradition does it arise and what is the directly-from-Jesus authority behind it?
The Church has the authority to bind and loose, and that is a Scriptural teaching, see Matthew 16:19; 18:18.

Now by virtue of that power, the Church has bound all Catholics to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of obligation under pain of mortal sin. It also has the power to loose from the obligation, and indeed, many Episcopal Conferences use that power to loose some of the Holy Days of Obligation in their territories (example: in the Philippines, the Assumption is not a Holy Day of Obligation).

So actually, the sin is not so much in the act of missing Mass, but in the deliberate disobedience of the Church’s lawful discipline, which it considers grave.
 
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fcfahs:
What I was looking for is something referenced in Sacred Tradition that provides us proundly new, salvation-critical information, thereby demonstrating that the bible is inadequate as a sole source of knowledge of God’s true salvation plan and expectations of us.
fchahs :tiphat:

This is a good question. I think it might help to realize that all Catholic teaching is explicitly and / or implicitly in scripture. When defining salvation-critical information the Church relies on the bible, the Church and sacred tradition. One cannot stand without the other. To answer your question, you must be open to hearing the information as the Church has defined salvation-critical information. We use all three legs, not just one. Sometimes we rely on one leg more than the other, as is the case with defining the biblical truth on implicit teachings.

Can you please answer these questions.

  1. *]Are you rejecting sacred tradition?
    *]Where does the bible say that it is the sole source of knowledge of God’s true salvation plan and expectations of us.
    *]Where are we to go to have the truth explained to us.

    May God :blessyou:
 
[itsjustdave1988]Here’s another. Baptism saves you, that is, it is regenerative *ex opere operato *(by virtue of the valid sacrament). This is actually explicit in Sacred Scripture, yet still denied by Protestants.
Dave,

You’ve posted some great points and I’d concur that the sacraments themselves are apostolic Traditions and the canon is a major Sacred Tradition NOT found explicitly nor implicitly in Scripture. The book of Hebrews is “THE” stumbling point for Protestants because no one really knows for sure who wrote it. And if the test of canonicity is being written by an apostle, then one has to prove that an apostle wrote it or it was attributed to him and this is difficult if one isn’t Catholic nor Eastern Orthodox when it comes to the book of Hebrews. Sacred Tradition certainly makes the link and is why Catholicism is correct on the canon.

As far as no Protestant group accepting baptism and ex opere operato there are actually Reformed Protestants who not only practice pedeo baptism but also accept “ex opere operato.” I have a friend who is a Reformed pastor whom I’ve discussed this with. He also disagrees with evangelicals about regenerative baptism of course 🙂
 
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Bishopite:
The book of Hebrews is “THE” stumbling point for Protestants because no one really knows for sure who wrote it. And if the test of canonicity is being written by an apostle, then one has to prove that an apostle wrote it or it was attributed to him and this is difficult if one isn’t Catholic nor Eastern Orthodox when it comes to the book of Hebrews. Sacred Tradition certainly makes the link and is why Catholicism is correct on the canon.
The test of canonicity is not being written by an apostle – neither Mark nor Luke were apostles.

When we examine the documents making up the New Testament, we wouldn’t go far wrong in saying the test of canonicity is tradition – the documents accepted as canonical were orthodox and had a long history of acceptance among major segments of the Church.
 
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