Sacred vs. Historical Scripture

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What is the Catholic argument for the sacredness of scripture, as opposed to its mere historiocity? In other words, where does the idea come from that the authors of the Bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit as opposed to merely recording their experiences with God?
 
Hi Bubba,

Our acceptance of the Bible as inspired rests on the testimonial of the apostles who received their teaching from Christ. We believe in Christ because he said he would resurrect on the third day, and He did. This historical truth has been transmitted to us through 60 generations in an uninterrupted chain.

We do not accept interior criteria of inspiration as do some Protestants. “Interior criteria” means roughly that the bible is inspired because it is “inspiring”.

It is also important to state that the Church did not approve or ratify the Bible. It received it from apostolic times as inspired. The Church is a *witness *to the inspiration of the Bible.

For a full treatment of this matter go to newadvent.org/cathen/08045a.htm

Verbum
 
What is the Catholic argument for the sacredness of scripture, as opposed to its mere historiocity? In other words, where does the idea come from that the authors of the Bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit as opposed to merely recording their experiences with God?

The NT contains passages vouching for the OT. That is a* fragment* of an answer; ther is no one answer that fits all the texts 😦 😦 - the question is not quite right the right one, because though Christians speak of “the Holy Spirit”, the OT does not: the ruach of JHWH is not a Divine Person, in our sense. The Israelites were not Trinitarian 🙂

The two questions asked are different ones as well
 
though Christians speak of “the Holy Spirit”, the OT does not: the ruach of JHWH is not a Divine Person, in our sense. The Israelites were not Trinitarian 🙂
While that is true, the Jews did not correctly anticipate who and what the messiah would be. However to a Christian who reads the Old Testament there are many “Types” that anticipate the truths of the New testament. Things like Isaiah’s Suffering Servant, Solomen’s temple and organization of his Kingdom as a type of the papacy, the twelve apostles , and the church and much more. That is not to say that when Isaiah, for example, was writing that he understood the deeper meaning that some of his word would have. That is the beauty of “inspiration.” On the other hand I have had criticism from some Jews for “reading back” Christian beliefs into the Old Testament.:🙂
 
Thanks everyone for the replies. I did not mean to get into the details of OT vs. NT or, e.g. psalms vs. geneology, but first simply to examine the issue at the most general level.

Also, let me emphasize that I am interested in the contrast between sacredness and historiocity. In other words, why do we treat the NT differently from other historical documents whose reliability is not seriously questioned?

Here is a key phrase from the New Advent citation: “It is enough for us to add that on several occasions the Church has defined the inspiration of the canonical books as an article of faith (see Denzinger, Enchiridion, 10th ed., n. 1787, 1809). Every Christian sect still deserving that name believes in the inspiration of the Scriptures, although several have more or less altered the idea of inspiration.”

Scanning the remainder of the article (I will read it again more carefully later), it seems that there is much in terms of definition and history but little or nothing in terms of argument beyond the above.

This somewhat surprising since even the existence of God is argued (e.g. try googling “proof of God’s existence” to see what I mean).
 
I’m still a little unclear on what you’re looking for. Perhaps read the Church’s Vatican II document on revelation, Dei Verbum, and search keywords.
 
Let’s begin with the fact that the scriptures (OT and NT) are historical documents, documents useful to historians (and the rest of us) in understanding people and events of antiquity.

In particular, the Bible is a collection of ancient books about God and about various people’s encounters with God. For example, the NT contains eye witness acounts of Jesus’ life and letters written by the apostles, all valuable historical documents for anyone wanting to know about Jesus and the earliest Church.

But Christians do not merely believe that the Bible is a really good history book of God. As the title of this forum suggestions, scriptures are regarded as “sacred”.

There are really several interreated concepts here regarding the scriptures: sacredness, holiness, inspiration by God, and word of God. The Bible is the Sacred Word of God. God inspired the writers to record God’s Word. (Similarly for Sacred Tradition including, for example, the Sacred Tradition that the Bible is the Sacred Word of God.)

In other words, there are claims made about scriptures above and beyond their historical nature.

The question is: what is the evidence that supports these additional claims? Certainly they are mutually reinforcing claims, but to rely on one in support of another would be a circular argument.
 
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But Christians do not merely believe that the Bible is a really good history book of God. As the title of this forum suggestions, scriptures are regarded as “sacred”.

There are really several interreated concepts here regarding the scriptures:** sacredness, holiness, inspiration **by God, and word of God. The Bible is the Sacred Word of God. God inspired the writers to record God’s Word. (Similarly for Sacred Tradition including, for example, the Sacred Tradition that the Bible is the Sacred Word of God.)

In other words, there are claims made about scriptures above and beyond their historical nature.

The question is: what is the evidence that supports these additional claims?
They are regarded as “sacred” because they contain not just a history of events, but **words **actually **spoken by God **. [The Scriptures note when the words are **God’s words (eg. The LORD God said, “…”; Jesus said, “…”)]
Through His words, God reveals Himself and His will for us. They reveal His thoughts - the thoughts of God! What could be more **sacred, holy, inspired **.

Nita
 
They are regarded as “sacred” because they contain not just a history of events, but **words **actually **spoken by God **. [The Scriptures note when the words are **God’s words
(eg. The LORD God said, “…”; Jesus said, “…”)] Through His words, God reveals Himself and His will for us. They reveal His thoughts - the thoughts of God! What could be more **sacred, holy, inspired **.
This is true of only some parts. It is not true, for example, of the epistles, for example. Nor is it true of most of the OT. What you are describing is what I am calling the historical view.

The claim of sacredness and inspiration goes much further to be about the text as a whole.
 
Let’s begin with the fact that the scriptures (OT and NT) are historical documents, documents useful to historians (and the rest of us) in understanding people and events of antiquity.
they are “old” documents but, especially for the Nt, we do not have the originals.
In particular, the Bible is a collection of ancient books about God and about various people’s encounters with God. For example, the NT contains eye witness acounts of Jesus’ life
That is not true at all - all the gospels are written in the third person by unknown authors. The church specifically states in The Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels that the gospels are not even close to eyewitness accounts.
and letters written by the apostles, all valuable historical documents for anyone wanting to know about Jesus and the earliest Church.
Paul was not an apostle.
The question is: what is the evidence that supports these additional claims? Certainly they are mutually reinforcing claims, but to rely on one in support of another would be a circular argument.
There is really only faith.
 
This is true of only some parts. It is not true, for example, of the epistles, for example. Nor is it true of most of the OT. What you are describing is what I am calling the historical view.

The claim of sacredness and inspiration goes much further to be about the text as a whole.
I’m not disputing the historical aspect. But that doesn’t exclude the “sacredness”.

For the Torah and the Gospels the information was sacred and inspired before it was ever written down - before it was ever a written historical “document”. Eg. Moses and the people KNEW it was God communicating with them. That made those words sacred. The apostles knew Jesus was God and that made His words sacred. Writing the words down came later.

Regarding the other books, it was the decisions of the appointed religious authorities (Jewish for the Jews, Catholic for the Christians) that determined which books their respective faiths would consider “Sacred Scripture”. Basis for that authority is of course the “historical” 🙂 record in Scripture, so we’re back to circular reasoning.
The question is: what is the evidence that supports these additional claims? Certainly they are mutually reinforcing claims, but to rely on one in support of another would be a circular argument.
I guess, like some of the others, I don’t quite know what you’re after - the purpose for the information you’re seeking. Do you have in mind some possible “evidence” - or could you give us an example? Might help us understand.

It’s faith that leads individuals to accept the Scriptures as inspired.
 
That is not true at all - all the gospels are written in the third person by unknown authors.
Where does the Church teach that the authors of the gospels are unknown? Among other things, it is Church teaching/tradition that is responsible for including in Sacred Scripture the titles of the four gospels - titles which name the authors. (Gospel according to Matthew, etc.)
The church specifically states in The Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels that the gospels are not even close to eyewitness accounts
I read “The Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels” - the one on this website:
bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/resources/documents/catholic/pbcgospels.htm
Nowhere does it “specifically state” that “the gospels are not even close to eyewitness accounts.”

Could you clarify what you mean by eyewitness accounts? Matthew and John were certainly eyewitnesses of much that they recorded in their gospels.
 
they are “old” documents but, especially for the Nt, we do not have the originals.
I don’t think there are any originals but the copies are considered very reliable and, in the case of the NT, there is relative certainty that they were written very soon after the events.
That is not true at all - all the gospels are written in the third person by unknown authors. The church specifically states in The Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels that the gospels are not even close to eyewitness accounts.
Could you be more precise, perhaps with a quotation or a reference to a paragraph?
There is really only faith.
That strikes me as rather odd. As I noted before, people have no inhibitions about attempting proofs, argument, and evidence for the exisitence of God.
 
I’m not disputing the historical aspect. But that doesn’t exclude the “sacredness”.
Exactly. I am interested here in the difference, that extra added something above and beyond their historical nature.
For the Torah and the Gospels the information was sacred and inspired before it was ever written down - before it was ever a written historical “document”. Eg. Moses and the people KNEW it was God communicating with them.
There are several points here. First, it’s not so important a matter whether they are written or oral. Written is obvioulsy more reliable than oral but historians have long recognized that oral records can be very reliable methods of transmission, particularly where prehistoric socieities were concerned.

Even so, there is considerable evidence that the Pentatuch was a composition of several authors, probably representing seperate oral traditions.

For the sake of this thread, let’s assume that where the Bible says “God said” or “Jesus said” that it is an accurate report of God/Jesus’ words, irrespective of how long it was orally transmitted before being written down.

The issue is more with the narratives and various interpolations. (There are some gray areas, but let’s stick to black and white for the moment.)
Regarding the other books, it was the decisions of the appointed religious authorities (Jewish for the Jews, Catholic for the Christians) that determined which books their respective faiths would consider “Sacred Scripture”. Basis for that authority is of course the “historical” 🙂 record in Scripture, so we’re back to circular reasoning…
This gets more to the heart of the matter. It might be circular or not, depending. For Catholics, the linch pin would be, I guess, Mt 28:18-20 etc. which is sort of the Catholic blank check. (It obviously presents a problem for non-Catholics, howoever. I would be curious to hear how a non-Catholic argues for the sacredness of scripture.)
I guess, like some of the others, I don’t quite know what you’re after - the purpose for the information you’re seeking. Do you have in mind some possible “evidence” - or could you give us an example? Might help us understand.
“Evidence” is perhaps too restrictive a word, I originally said “arguement” of which evidence would be part. If an atheist questions the exietence of God, I don’t reach into my briefcase and pull out faith as a tool to argue with him. There are many lines of argument that may be relied upon in such situations to convince people even if, at the end of the day, some faith is still required.
It’s faith that leads individuals to accept the Scriptures as inspired.
Sure, but is it faith alone?
 
…the Bible is a really good history book of God…
The Bible is not a book of history as we moderns understand it. I think that may be part of the problem here.

Job, for instance, is probably fiction. It contains a lot of teaching about faith in God, but does not record a historical event.

Even the New Testament is not history by modern standards. We understand history as a chronological record of events. While we can study the events in the Gospels and arrive at a pretty fair idea of the chronology of Jesus’ ministry, that is not necessarily the prime reason for their existence.

Yes, His history is important; we need His miracles and resurrection to prove that He was a supernatural being as well as a human one. But the primary message of the Gospels is what Jesus taught. Since He is God, His teachings are definitely inspired!

And then we trail off into what “inspired” means. There are those who claim that every word in the Bible was “dictated” by God; that the human writers were just instruments (like typewriters) and had no (name removed by moderator)ut. That makes every single word inspired. That is not the Catholic belief. From the Catechism:
110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76
Thus, it’s the intention of the teaching that is inspired. The ideas, the instructions to us, the morals…

Hope that helps. And I hope it’s clear; I’m a bit scatterbrained today.

God bless,

Ruthie
 
The Bible is not a book of history as we moderns understand it. I think that may be part of the problem here.
For this part, it is important that we compare apples to apples. So the questions that we would want to ask here is first, how does it compare with other texts of the same period, and second, what is it a history of?
Job, for instance, is probably fiction. It contains a lot of teaching about faith in God, but does not record a historical event.
Yes, and Psalms are poems/songs, and Numbers is geneology. Many also believe that Genesis is a fictionalized account of some abstracted occurance (minimally, of God’s creation of everything and Man’s inherent sinful nature).

Nevertheless, most of the Bible can be read as pretty straighforward history as least relative to other sources. (Is there a better account of the development of the Jewish tribe and kingdom? Where else would a historian go to learn about Jesus?)
Even the New Testament is not history by modern standards.
But this is apples and oranges.
Yes, His history is important; we need His miracles and resurrection to prove that He was a supernatural being as well as a human one. But the primary message of the Gospels is what Jesus taught. Since He is God, His teachings are definitely inspired!
To be more precise, it is the best record of what Jesus taught, not to mention what he did (death and ressurection, in particular).
And then we trail off into what “inspired” means. There are those who claim that every word in the Bible was “dictated” by God; that the human writers were just instruments (like typewriters) and had no (name removed by moderator)ut. That makes every single word inspired. That is not the Catholic belief. From the Catechism…Thus, it’s the intention of the teaching that is inspired. The ideas, the instructions to us, the morals…
This is, I think, more to the point of my question. Essentially, the Church draws inferences about God through the Bible. One might describe it as a wholistic process.

The question I want to pose is how is this process different from a historian drawing inferences about, say, Julius Caesar, through the records left behind.

What does it mean to say that the Bible is the Word of God and an inspired text. Is it merely the difference of subject, as a minimalist might infer? Or is there a claim that God was more involved in the writing of the Bible than, say, Julius Caesar? The maximalist model would be the typwriter version that you described, the BIble being composed of those books that God dictated. (That is how the Jews view the Torah, for example.)

Insofar as God was a passive subject of the Bible authors, I would call that the historical model, irrespective of the quality of the writing (even Job was an effort to describe God by someone we presume was closer than we are today, otherwise every fictional story about God would be added to the Bible).
Hope that helps. And I hope it’s clear; I’m a bit scatterbrained today.
Yes, I think it goes a long way toward getting the discussion on track to answering my questions.
 
Thanks everyone for the replies. I did not mean to get into the details of OT vs. NT or, e.g. psalms vs. geneology, but first simply to examine the issue at the most general level.

Also, let me emphasize that I am interested in the contrast between sacredness and historiocity. In other words, why do we treat the NT differently from other historical documents whose reliability is not seriously questioned?

It’s bad to do that - we shouldn’t. Humanly speaking, the NT is to be studied just like any other body of texts of that time & place. Inspiration & so on have no bearing on this, so are not reasons against it. Otherwise, Jesus & the Apostles, Pilate etc., become stained-glass figures striking self-conscious attitudes, & not living men like us.​

Here is a key phrase from the New Advent citation: “It is enough for us to add that on several occasions the Church has defined the inspiration of the canonical books as an article of faith (see Denzinger, Enchiridion, 10th ed., n. 1787, 1809). Every Christian sect still deserving that name believes in the inspiration of the Scriptures, although several have more or less altered the idea of inspiration.”

It’s not a new article though - it’s 90 years old. As a guide to the Church’s teaching today, & to Biblical scholarship today, it won’t do. At least, I don’t think Pius X is Pope still…​

Scanning the remainder of the article (I will read it again more carefully later), it seems that there is much in terms of definition and history but little or nothing in terms of argument beyond the above.

This somewhat surprising since even the existence of God is argued (e.g. try googling “proof of God’s existence” to see what I mean).
 
Humanly speaking, the NT is to be studied just like any other body of texts of that time & place. Inspiration & so on have no bearing on this, so are not reasons against it. Otherwise, Jesus & the Apostles, Pilate etc., become stained-glass figures striking self-conscious attitudes, & not living men like us.
You are basically arguing for what I am calling here the historical model.

This has a bearing on another nagging question which I explored here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=291700
 
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