"sacrifice" of mass question - supper or crucifixion?

[tau_gamma_pi]

Is the Sacrifice of the Mass a re-presentation of Calvary or of the last supper? Or both?

Since it’s the same event happening, when I am at mass am I actually standing at the foot of the cross? am I actually sitting in the room with the apostles? is every person (including, say, St. Catherine of Siena, Martin Luther, and my deceased great-great-great-grandmother) who has ever been to mass therefore actually standing next to me?

I’m not sure if that’s true, but if it is that’d be really, really cool.

 

[benedictgal]

At every Mass, the veil between heaven and earth is lifted and we are in the presence of the Divine Majesty of God. Furthermore, you cannot have the Last Supper without the Crucifixion and you cannot have either of these without the Resurrection. That is why the Paschal Triduum is one huge liturgy that begins on Thursday and ends at the conclusion of the Easter Vigil.

Pope Benedict XVI rightly notes that the Last Supper anticipated the Crucifixion of Jesus. During the Last Supper, Jesus did, in an unbloody manner, what was going to happen to him on Calvary. He made this point in the homily he preached during the 2007 Evening Mass of the Lord’s Supper:

Jesus celebrated the Passover without a lamb and without a temple; yet, not without a lamb and not without a temple. He himself was the awaited Lamb, the true Lamb, just as John the Baptist had foretold at the beginning of Jesus’ public ministry: “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (Jn 1: 29).

And he himself was the true Temple, the living Temple where God dwells and where we can encounter God and worship him. His Blood, the love of the One who is both Son of God and true man, one of us, is the Blood that can save. His love, that love in which he gave himself freely for us, is what saves us. The nostalgic, in a certain sense, ineffectual gesture which was the sacrifice of an innocent and perfect lamb, found a response in the One who for our sake became at the same time Lamb and Temple.

Thus, the Cross was at the centre of the new Passover of Jesus. From it came the new gift brought by him, and so it lives on for ever in the Blessed Eucharist in which, down the ages, we can celebrate the new Passover with the Apostles.

From Christ’s Cross comes the gift. “No one takes [my life] from me, but I lay it down of my own accord”. He now offers it to us.

The paschal haggada, the commemoration of God’s saving action, has become a memorial of the Cross and Resurrection of Christ - a memorial that does not simply recall the past but attracts us within the presence of Christ’s love.

Thus, the berakah, Israel’s prayer of blessing and thanksgiving, has become our Eucharistic celebration in which the Lord blesses our gifts - the bread and wine - to give himself in them.
Let us pray to the Lord that he will help us to understand this marvellous mystery ever more profoundly, to love it more and more, and in it, to love the Lord himself ever more.

Now, I can’t say for sure that Martin Luther is at the Mass, as he died excommunicated from the Church; however, I do believe that the angels and saints are present at every Mass. Remember, at the Mass, we, too, are just as present at Calvary as the Blessed Mother and Sts. John and Mary Magdalene were. Time and space are suspended and we stand in the presence of the Divine Majesty of God.

I hope this helps.

 

[kleary]

Is the Sacrifice of the Mass a re-presentation of Calvary or of the last supper? Or both?

Since it’s the same event happening, when I am at mass am I actually standing at the foot of the cross? am I actually sitting in the room with the apostles? is every person (including, say, St. Catherine of Siena, Martin Luther, and my deceased great-great-great-grandmother) who has ever been to mass therefore actually standing next to me?

I’m not sure if that’s true, but if it is that’d be really, really cool.

The Last Supper was the first Mass…it was the same as Mass is today, the re-presentation of Calvary.

Mass today is the re-presentation of Calvary…the priest offers the Divine Person, Jesus Christ in Sacrifice to the Most Holy Triune Godhead for the sins of the living and the dead.

Yes…all who are in heaven are present there even though you cannot see them…millions and millions of angels all bowing down to the Divine Victim slain for us.

It is Calvary “TODAY”- everywhere Holy Mass is offered.

How did Martin Luther get in there? He abhored the Sacrifice of the Mass, and needed to change the doctrine of it to fit with his new theology.

As far as I can see, Luther was an enemy of the Church…I only hope he repented of his heresies before he died. His errors have greatly wounded the Church and continue to this very day. May God have mercy on his soul.

Ken

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Is the Sacrifice of the Mass a re-presentation of Calvary or of the last supper? Or both?

Since it’s the same event happening, when I am at mass am I actually standing at the foot of the cross? am I actually sitting in the room with the apostles? is every person (including, say, St. Catherine of Siena, Martin Luther, and my deceased great-great-great-grandmother) who has ever been to mass therefore actually standing next to me?

I’m not sure if that’s true, but if it is that’d be really, really cool.

It is a re-presentation of the ONE event outside of time and a re-enactment of the Last Supper in time. Yes, you are mystically standing at the foot of the Cross, and participating in the uniting of the Mass with the perpetual heavenly liturgy with all the Angels and Saints.

 

[tau_gamma_pi]

What I mean by Martin Luther being there is this…

1. attending mass = being at the foot of the cross
2. I attended mass at 11 a.m. last Sunday.

(1, 2) 3. Therefore, I am standing at the foot of the cross at 9 a.m. next Sunday.

1. Martin Luther went to mass at least once. Pick a random Sunday in 1516.

(1, 4) 5. Therefore, Martin Luther was standing at the foot of the cross.

(3, 5) 6. If Martin Luther was at the foot of the cross, and I was at 11 a.m. last Sunday, then we are both at the foot of the cross.

1. Therefore we must be standing next to each other.

I don’t understand how his excommunication is relevant. If you go to mass, you can be an atheist or a pagan or even (gasp!) a reformer, but you’re still there.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

tau gamma pi,

That is an interesting point you brought up, and I’ve never considered it before. I’ll be curious what my fellow posters here think about your Martin Luther point.

My understanding is that there are a few theories of the Sacrifice of the Mass. The one that seems to be mentioned above is what I believe is known as the “mystical theory”. From what I can gather it is one of the more popular theories, at least currently.

If that is true – that it is a theory and not a settled question – and if there are competing theories that are just as valid and consistent with the mind of the Church – then I suppose it would be important for us to qualify it as our own personal belief. From what I understand, though, it seems often spoken of as if there are no other possibilities.I’m not sure of its true status, and I, like you, would love to have some (name removed by moderator)ut from those knowledgeable in this area.

VC

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

What I mean by Martin Luther being there is this…

1. attending mass = being at the foot of the cross
2. I attended mass at 11 a.m. last Sunday.

(1, 2) 3. Therefore, I am standing at the foot of the cross at 9 a.m. next Sunday.

1. Martin Luther went to mass at least once. Pick a random Sunday in 1516.

(1, 4) 5. Therefore, Martin Luther was standing at the foot of the cross.

(3, 5) 6. If Martin Luther was at the foot of the cross, and I was at 11 a.m. last Sunday, then we are both at the foot of the cross.

1. Therefore we must be standing next to each other.

I don’t understand how his excommunication is relevant. If you go to mass, you can be an atheist or a pagan or even (gasp!) a reformer, but you’re still there.

I don’t know if I’m going to say this adequately. We are not Mystically at the foot of the Cross outside of time the whole Mass, only at the Consecration, which is the re-presenting of the Sacrifice to God the Father. The Liturgy of the Eucharist is the re-enactment of the Last Supper. Martin Luther would have been experiencing the same whenever he attended Mass, and if he is in heaven, perpetually now where there is no time.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

tau gamma pi,

That is an interesting point you brought up, and I’ve never considered it before. I’ll be curious what my fellow posters here think about your Martin Luther point.

My understanding is that there are a few theories of the Sacrifice of the Mass. The one that seems to be mentioned above is what I believe is known as the “mystical theory”. From what I can gather it is one of the more popular theories, at least currently.

If that is true – that it is a theory and not a settled question – and if there are competing theories that are just as valid and consistent with the mind of the Church – then I suppose it would be important for us to qualify it as our own personal belief. From what I understand, though, it seems often spoken of as if there are no other possibilities.I’m not sure of its true status, and I, like you, would love to have some (name removed by moderator)ut from those knowledgeable in this area.

VC

Try reading the section of the Catechism that speaks about the Mass and also the section of the Council of Trent that speaks about the Mass. The Document *Mediator Dei *is also important, *Mystici Corporis Christi *will also shed some light on our relationship within this. Otherwise what you read here is our opinion or our persentation of what we have read or been taught.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Try reading the section of the Catechism that speaks about the Mass and also the section of the Council of Trent that speaks about the Mass. The Document *Mediator Dei *is also important, *Mystici Corporis Christi *will also shed some light on our relationship within this. Otherwise what you read here is our opinion or our persentation of what we have read or been taught.

Thank you Br. Rich.

I have read the above (excellent list by the way ). As far as I can see Trent’s treatment doesn’t touch upon the “mystery theory”, which is not surprising if Trent predated the theory.

One of the things that I am scratching my head over is whether or not the encyclical Mediator Dei argues against “The Mystery Theory” of the Mass put forth by Dom Odo Casel. Pope Paul VI’s apostolic letter Solemni Hac Liturgia (The Credo of the People of God) also seems to lean away from the “mystery theory”.

Have you, or has anyone else here, done (or know of) a historical survey of the theories of the Sacrifice of the Mass, and specifically where the “mystery theory” stands?

Thank you,
VC

 

[tau_gamma_pi]

If I attend mass 5 times, I haven’t watched the sacrifice 5 times; I’ve watched it once. Yes?

If I’ve attended mass at least once, I have stood at the foot of the cross. Yes?

If I attend mass once (and therefore have stood at the foot of the cross), then die and go to hell, I have still stood at the foot of the cross. Yes?

So I don’t get why Martin Luther’s eternal destination is relevant. He was still there at least once. Right?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

If I attend mass 5 times, I haven’t watched the sacrifice 5 times; I’ve watched it once. Yes?

You have been mystically present at the one Sacrifice, 5 times.

If I’ve attended mass at least once, I have stood at the foot of the cross. Yes?

In a mystical sense yes.

If I attend mass once (and therefore have stood at the foot of the cross), then die and go to hell, I have still stood at the foot of the cross. Yes?

Yes.

So I don’t get why Martin Luther’s eternal destination is relevant. He was still there at least once. Right?

He was mystically present at the Crucifixion every time he attended a valid Mass.