Sacrifice of the Mass

[KathleenGee]

Cursilista…

I had a Jewish friend who became a Protestant Christian in the evangelical sense. She was a broken person. One time she wanted to go to Mass with me.

But after Mass ended, she went into great shock because so much of the rituals meant something to her in her identity…she said…‘I am Jewish, and I will never stop being one.’ And all I can think of is her past orientation made her see the significance of Jesus at the altar replacing the sacrificial lamb…but some how…this common obstacle came to her…and her identity was threatened, not fulfilled…this was way back in 1973 or so.

I met her mother, and the family was well known in the metro area because the father was a locally famous commentator. But I picked up on the mother connecting with me…and I have found in my life that devout Jews sense something authentic in my Catholicism that reflects God. I don’t mean to point to myself.

But the sensitivity and relating to God is the same as the Jews. We see God as the center of our life. We revolve our lives around God in the daily rhythm of life. We own our humanity. We avoid scruples…or our priests will direct us out of them.

Likewise, the liturgical year…Christ Bearer…do a search some time on the Catholic Liturgical Year…it repeats it self every year…a circle…Hebrew Catholic has references to the Jewish calendar…I think they use both. Or synthesize both.

(I might add that the Jews who find fulfillment in Christ, one out of 8 become Catholic, the rest are Messianic Jews…but they have the same issues as Protestants not recognizing any central authority. That is strange because the Church tried both episcopal and conciliar models of administrating the early Church, but the Jewish episcopal turned out to be the better model for administrating the universal church.)

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Blue Mary…

All you said was very good and reflects on how so much the Mass is the fulfillment of the Passover.

What I learned from Mr Tom Nash…is that it is both the Great Atonement and the Passover that we must see that properly defines that Christ only died and suffered once.

The Great Atonement was where only the High Priest was allowed once a year into the Holy of Holies to sacrifice a goat and calf in the court yard…representing the Crucifixion…and then walking into the Holy of Holies…representing Christ ascending into heaven and passing through the Holy of Holies as the High Priest of Melchizedek – to then enter the sanctuary and sprinkle sacrifical blood on the Mercy Seat, thus representing Christ now standing wounded and triumphant on the Mercy Seat, on the altar in heaven before the Heavenly Father.

The Transfiguration of Christ was a precursor to His place standing on the altar with wounds but triumphant…this all coming to fruition with His ascension into heaven.

There is also the other analogy going back to the Garden of Eden…how of all the fruits that one could eat, only one was named, the ‘Tree of Life’. But Adam and Eve refused to eat of it, but tasted instead the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They were expelled from the Garden…but the Angel pointed to them the Tree of Life – that now they could NOT eat but follow, the tree in distance but ahead of them.

Jesus is the Manna from heaven. He came to us placed in an animal feeder to become food for us…to bring us Eternal Life.

 

[KathleenGee]

Christ Bearer, I learned alot from ‘Worthy is the Lamb’ written by Tom Nash.

People who study the Mass in depth see it now as the fulfillment of Scripture…from text and book form to this mystical experience of entering into this life saving and physical presence of God…where heaven and earth interconnect!

 

[Curious_Seed]

In my first thread I asked about the veneration of Mary. Very helpful thoughts everyone contributed. I am still chewing on much of it. Thank you!

Here goes number 2 comment/question from a traditional protestant…

*The Mass being a fresh sacrifice of Christ is a blasphemy. The book of Hebrews among other scriptures clearly states that Christ’s sacrifice was “once for all”. I even knew of a former Catholic Priest who left the Catholic Church because he said that when he read the book of Hebrews “things just weren’t lining up”. How can Christ be sacrifice over and over again when he said on the cross “it is finished!” ?

First, I would like to comment on the Catholic Priest leaving the Catholic Church because his reading of Hebrews found “things were not lining up.”

My comment is : HOGWASH !

I know it is an event which came to be known to you, and not one of which you have first-hand knowledge, but to leave the priesthood because of reading Hebrews is utter nonsense and completely untrue.

Now that I got that out of my system, to address issues of the Mass.

Christ commanded that there be Mass to remember Him, in proclamation of His death.

The bread is His body; the wine is the New Covenant.

The Mass is to be practiced, until He returns.

Participants are to do so, only in a correct way of doing so.

So, Mass is a process commanded to be repeated, until Christ returns.

Bread and wine and manner are essentials.

Interpretation of meanings from that, and beyond it, is for each believer to decide; but, one would be wise to listen most closely to the interpretation of any Church, with a history extending back to that, don’t you think ?

 

[Christ_Bearer]

God accepts these offerings and transforms them from bread and wine to the body and blood of his son. The body and blood are then shared with those of the congregation who have ritually cleansed themselves of sin through the sacrement of reconcilliation and become one with christ and one in faith with each other. One must discern whether we are worthy, “cleansed” reconciled with the lord over the sins we have commited before receiving the eucharist, because nothing holy, the eurcharist, can be put into anything that is not holy, an unrepentant or unconfessed condition of one of the flock.

The Eurcharistic celebration is not a “fresh sacrifice” as protestants like to claim, it is a “fresh start” for all believers who do as our lord instructed us to do and that is to eat his flesh and drink his blood to become one with him. A miracle occurs at each mass. bread and wine is transformed into the spiritual body and blood of our savior. Why is it that we doubt the real presence? Our God is attributed with so many miracles, why is it so hard to believe that our God cannot change bread and wine into the flesh and blood of his son our lord. The miracle of the Eurcharist occurs every day in the celebration of the mass. It is a beautiful sharing of gifts between the lord and his people.

I am not trying to be trite or profane in asking this question, so just hear me out. If transsubstantiation is true (I know this might not be the preferred term for Catholics, but for lack of a better term), then why doesn’t the bread taste like human skin and the blood become thicker and taste like human blood? Jesus wasn’t teaching cannibalism "John 6 he said, it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing.

Thoughts?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I am not trying to be trite or profane in asking this question, so just hear me out. If transsubstantiation is true (I know this might not be the preferred term for Catholics, but for lack of a better term), then why doesn’t the bread taste like human skin and the blood become thicker and taste like human blood? Jesus wasn’t teaching cannibalism "John 6 he said, it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing.

Thoughts?

I would be super grossed out if it did. We aren’t cannibals, or vampires…JSYK.

 

[Bballer32]

Yes. He did marry and I think had a few kids. My father in law went to Bible college with him at Liberty College in Pensacola, FL.

That poor priest. He either didn’t follow God’s Call or just left his call for the life of the World.

 

[Cursilista]

The way that you phrased this made me connect the Eucharist to the new and old wine skins parable. You do not put new wine in old wine skins. We must be made new through Christ’s forgiveness then we can receive the Blood of Christ in the form of WINE! It truly is “NEW wine”.

This is probably super obvious to everyone else, but I just connected the dots.

Link,

I’m smiling. I too was able to connect the dots after a lesson on the mass conducted by a priest. I really wish that the priest would take time to explain the mass to the people during his homily or through bilbe studies. Too many Catholics, myself included, are not intuned with the beauty of the mass and all that it means. Each part of the Mass is scriptually based. The words, which we seem to know by heart but never truly hear, are so incredibly beautiful. There are videos out there that explain the mass. I have watched many of them. But one thing all Catholics should do is to read each word said during a Mass and contemplate on them, especially the eucharistic prayers said by the priest. those prayers explain the eucharist better than any explanation ive heard.

Below is a link to the order of the mass and the options priest have to each phase with differing prayers and exaultations. Be sure to click on the highlighted links within the text to find some of the prayer options.

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/Mass.htm

 

[EnglishTeacher]

As others have said, we do not “re-sacrifice” Christ. His sacrifice was once for all, but in the Mass, it is made present to us. Think of 1 Cor. 10:16: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” As a Protestant, I never thought too deeply about what that verse actually means, but as a Catholic, I see that it makes perfect and beautiful sense.

 

[campeador]

I am not trying to be trite or profane in asking this question, so just hear me out. If transsubstantiation is true (I know this might not be the preferred term for Catholics, but for lack of a better term), then why doesn’t the bread taste like human skin and the blood become thicker and taste like human blood? Jesus wasn’t teaching cannibalism "John 6 he said, it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing.

Thoughts?

Some people of strong moral convictions (or weaker dispositions) would reject Our Lord outright if He tasted like flesh and blood. And on the other hand, some people of deranged moral beliefs would profane Our Lord by craving the human flesh and blood of His Sacrifice.

Why would God turn his Son’s sacrifice into some macabre zombie fest?

It’s called the Bread of Life, not the flesh of life.

 

[Link0126]

I am not trying to be trite or profane in asking this question, so just hear me out. If transsubstantiation is true (I know this might not be the preferred term for Catholics, but for lack of a better term), then why doesn’t the bread taste like human skin and the blood become thicker and taste like human blood? Jesus wasn’t teaching cannibalism "John 6 he said, it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing.

Thoughts?

It HAS changed to actual flesh and blood. Look up the miracles, esp. Lanciano.

 

[Adonia]

I am not trying to be trite or profane in asking this question, so just hear me out. If transsubstantiation is true (I know this might not be the preferred term for Catholics, but for lack of a better term), then why doesn’t the bread taste like human skin and the blood become thicker and taste like human blood? Jesus wasn’t teaching cannibalism "John 6 he said, it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing.

Thoughts?

Transubstantiation is the correct word. We only go by what Jesus has said and we have faith that it is true. “This is my Body” and “This is my Blood”, in these things He left us the physical (the Eucharist). The spiritual is of course found within the Holy Spirit. The taste of the Holy Eucharist is irrelevant, as you said Jesus was not teaching cannibalism. We are talking of the pureness of God here, not that of the human plane.

 

[Cursilista]

I am not trying to be trite or profane in asking this question, so just hear me out. If transsubstantiation is true (I know this might not be the preferred term for Catholics, but for lack of a better term), then why doesn’t the bread taste like human skin and the blood become thicker and taste like human blood? Jesus wasn’t teaching cannibalism "John 6 he said, it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing.

Thoughts?

Christ Bearer,

I beg to differ, this question does seem a bit trite. Transubstantiation is truly a miracle of God and who are we to know the powers or the mind of God. As most Catholics we accept as fact that this change to the substance of the bread and wine do occur. We trust the churches teachings. The church bases these teachings on scripture. If you really care to read such scripture, i will supply you with a link to a site called scripture Catholic.

scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html

this link will supply you with scriptures from the old testament, new testament and the writings of the early church fathers. If you explore this site more you will find the same supporting scriptures and writings on nearly every subject on the catholic faith which you supposedly seek.

I assume, as a protestant, you base your whole faith on scripture. If this is the case, then that would include the whole bible and all of the scriptures, even those scriptures that support Catholic beliefs. I think you will be suprised at just how scriptural the catholic church is. i ask you to read the scriptures that support the Catholic teachings with an open mind and discern for yourself the explanations of those scriptures and what the early church fathers believed.

As for the taste of the bread and wine. I truly believe that the taste is somewhat like chicken. Just kidding, lol. I believe that it is a spiritual taste. I believe that under the auspices of bread and wine, Jesus’s divine spirit is present in those two physical elements. Jesus instituted this practice and made it more real to us humans by having a physical element to it.

 

[JustaServant]

Christ Bearer,
As in your other thread I am going to try to answer this from my own experience in understanding the Eucharist.
First, let me say there are things, like the miracles and the Power of God, that are simply beyond human comprehension.
Second, in order to understand the Eucharist, you must first know what a Sacrament is.
A Sacrament is an “outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. In the Bible it is often translated as “mystery” or “mysteries”. “Sacrament” is merely the Latin translation of that word. In fact, I believe the Orthodox still refer to them as “mysteries”.
There are many examples from the Scriptures of material things used as signs. The Rainbow was a sign and pledge to Noah that the world would never again be destroyed by a flood (Gen. 9:12-17). Circumcision was a sign and pledge to Abraham of the Covenant between himself and God. (Gen. 17:9-14. Rom. 4:11).
There are many examples from the Scriptures of material things used as supernatural means. The serpent of brass used to cure the Israelites (Num. 21:6-9). Christ using clay to heal the blind man at the pool of Siloam (Jn. 9:1-7). The entirety of Temple worship was Sacramental and supernatural in nature.
The outward sign of the Lord’s Supper is the bread and the wine. The inward part of the Lord’s Supper is the Body and the Blood of Christ which are received by the Christian in the Sacrament.
The Paschal Feast of the Passover was celebrated by the Jews as a continual reminder of the story of their deliverance. A deliverance effected not by them, but for them, by the Hand of God to free them from bondage to a state of exaltation in the Promised Land.
So also the Lord’s Supper is a continual Memorial of the deliverance of the whole world from the bondage of sin. A deliverance effected not by us, but for us by God who gave His Son to be our Paschal Lamb. In fact the word “remember” in Greek literally means to “do it again”.
When I finally understood this, the words of Jesus in John 6 finally made sense. Written in the last half of the 1st century, John knew as he recorded Christ’s words that the Church would know to what he is referring. Documents from the 1st and 2nd century show that the Church understood John 6 as referring to Communion.
Receiving His Body and Blood is the ultimate expression of our love for our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
And the early Church agreed with that.

 

[Luvtosew]

Cursilista…

I had a Jewish friend who became a Protestant Christian in the evangelical sense. She was a broken person. One time she wanted to go to Mass with me.

But after Mass ended, she went into great shock because so much of the rituals meant something to her in her identity…she said…‘I am Jewish, and I will never stop being one.’ And all I can think of is her past orientation made her see the significance of Jesus at the altar replacing the sacrificial lamb…but some how…this common obstacle came to her…and her identity was threatened, not fulfilled…this was way back in 1973 or so.

I met her mother, and the family was well known in the metro area because the father was a locally famous commentator. But I picked up on the mother connecting with me…and I have found in my life that devout Jews sense something authentic in my Catholicism that reflects God. I don’t mean to point to myself.

But the sensitivity and relating to God is the same as the Jews. We see God as the center of our life. We revolve our lives around God in the daily rhythm of life. We own our humanity. We avoid scruples…or our priests will direct us out of them.

Likewise, the liturgical year…Christ Bearer…do a search some time on the Catholic Liturgical Year…it repeats it self every year…a circle…Hebrew Catholic has references to the Jewish calendar…I think they use both. Or synthesize both.

(I might add that the Jews who find fulfillment in Christ, one out of 8 become Catholic, the rest are Messianic Jews…but they have the same issues as Protestants not recognizing any central authority. That is strange because the Church tried both episcopal and conciliar models of administrating the early Church, but the Jewish episcopal turned out to be the better model for administrating the universal church.)

Hi, is there some place I can read about how the Church tried both ways and what happened?? like the year and just the history of of how they tried both ways.

I am getting more confused than ever now, is the Catholic church part Jewish and part Christian? That is the impression I’m getting from reading this thread. Thank you, also trying hard to understand so bear with me please.

 

[JustaServant]

Christ Bearer,
Here is a blog post I made four years ago, I hope it helps.

The Real Presence of Christ.

An actual quote an anti-Catholic:

“You Catholic’s don’t know what you’re missing when you don’t rock with Jesus. Church is supposed to be fun and full of Joy and happiness. But yours seems like going to funeral and so dignified and boring. In my Church, sometimes we even dance in the Spirit, have Holy laughter, and run and dance. When God shows up anything can happen. Why do you want to restrict Him so much? What is all this that I am talking about? The manifest presence of God.”

When the Eucharist is removed from a Christian’s life, they are forever trying to find something to replace it with.
Some (like me) try Bible study. But no amount of knowledge, memorization, or meditation on the Sacred Scriptures can give me what the Eucharist gives me. Some try music. Emotional music can make my toe tap or bring me to tears. But as good as music is, it can never give me what can give me what the Eucharist gives me. Others, like our poor mislead friend above look for ‘miracles and manifestations’. They at least know there is something more, an encounter with the Divine.
But there is no greater miracle or manifestation greater than that which is found in the Eucharist.
Jesus said “lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.” This is made real through the Eucharist as we connect with the Risen Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus instituted the new covenant. He said this is my body with the focus on the bread. He said this is my blood with the focus on the wine. So when I take communion every Sunday I realize that by the power of the Holy Spirit I am in this everlasting covenant with God through the blood of His Son.
And as I take the elements into myself, by the power of the Holy Spirit I am receiving Christ into me, mind, body, and soul, and our lives flow as one. His body strengthens me, His blood renews life in me, He is feeding me His very self.
Christ feeds us spiritual food and we, in eating and drinking, have received His very Life through the sacraments.
As Jesus sat down with two on the road to Emmaus “he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And** their eyes were opened, and they knew him**” Later they told the Apostles: “what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.”
In the Holy Eucharist we have the one sacrament whose principal purpose is to increase sanctifying grace, repeatedly and often, through personal union with the Giver of grace Himself.
That is why the Holy Eucharist is preeminently the sacrament of spiritual growth, of increase in spiritual stature and strength.
That is why the soul already must be in the state of sanctifying grace when we receive Holy Communion—in other words, free from mortal sin.
Physical food cannot benefit a dead body, and the Holy Eucharist cannot benefit a dead soul.
In the arena, before they went out to die, Christians would partake of the Eucharist. And mystically, but also in reality, they went out stronger human beings to face whatever there was to face.
No amount “holy” laughter or “jumping and dancing” in the Spirit can replace that.
Catholics have the “manifest presence of God” in the Eucharist.

 

[SteveVH]

I am not trying to be trite or profane in asking this question, so just hear me out. If transsubstantiation is true (I know this might not be the preferred term for Catholics, but for lack of a better term), then why doesn’t the bread taste like human skin and the blood become thicker and taste like human blood? Jesus wasn’t teaching cannibalism "John 6 he said, it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing.

Thoughts?

This is actually a good question. The term “Transubstantiation” is the key to the answer to your question. If you will notice, we do not use the term “transformation”. If the bread and wine were “transformed” into the the body and blood of Christ we would indeed be eating bloody flesh and drinking fresh blood. The elements of bread and wine are rather “transubstantiated”, in other words the form" remains the same (bread and wine) but the actual “substance” is changed into the body, blood, soul and divinity our our Lord. Just as Christ’s divinity was hidden in his humanity, so his humanity and divinity are hidden in the substance of bread and wine while retaining the form of the elements.

Hope this helps.

God bless.

 

[Cursilista]

Hi, is there some place I can read about how the Church tried both ways and what happened?? like the year and just the history of of how they tried both ways.

I am getting more confused than ever now, is the Catholic church part Jewish and part Christian? That is the impression I’m getting from reading this thread. Thank you, also trying hard to understand so bear with me please.

luvtosew,

Does your bible have the old testament in it?

Was Jesus a Jew?

Were the Apostles Jews?

Did Jesus teach in the synagouges or Jewish Temples?

Did the early Christians not meet in the Jewish Temples?

Did not Jesus honor the traditions and celebrations of the Jews?

Did not the jewish prophets foretell Jesus’s coming, the mesiah?

The point here is that Christ came to fullfill the jewish faith. Many Jews did believe Jesus was the true messiah and became followers. Some Jews didnt believe. Most of them had an interest in keeping the old order of things, namely the pharasies and religious leaders.

Jesus never said to completely abandon the laws of God’s chosen people. Therefore yes, the early christian church, which was made up of mostly jews did keep some of the jewish ways of honoring God.

Im not sure what you mean about trying it both ways. It was always one way. Its not like Jesus came to earth and totally said hey, God made a mistake and the Jews got it all wrong. What he did was let the Jewish leaders know that they were corrupting Gods teachings and was correcting them. Christianity is the fullfilment of the Jewish faith. Have you ever heard of Messeanic Jews who believe Jesus was the messiah but they are still jews.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi, is there some place I can read about how the Church tried both ways and what happened?? like the year and just the history of of how they tried both ways.

I am getting more confused than ever now, is the Catholic church part Jewish and part Christian? That is the impression I’m getting from reading this thread. Thank you, also trying hard to understand so bear with me please.

Try thinking of it this way. All of the Bible, both Old Testaemtn and New Testament is the story of salvation history. The Jews were God’s chosen people. God made covenant after covenant with them. The Jews would break one covenant and God would give them another, always remaining faithful. Upon the coming of Jesus, the Messiah for whom they had been waiting since Adam and Eve, God made the “new and everlasting covenant”. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant; He is the “New and Everlasting Covenant”. As has been stated before, some the Jews recognized HIm and some did not. But the New Covenant was for the entire world, including us “gentiles” who were then grafted into the “chosen people”. So, Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. The Jews are our elder brothers and sisters in the faith. Those that have not yet recognized Jesus as the Messiah are missing the boat and have remained subject to the laws that preceded the New Covenant. So it is not strange that Catholicism has incorprated Jewish rituals in its rites. It is the extension and fulfillment of Judaism.

 

[jmcrae]

I am not trying to be trite or profane in asking this question, so just hear me out. If transsubstantiation is true (I know this might not be the preferred term for Catholics, but for lack of a better term), then why doesn’t the bread taste like human skin and the blood become thicker and taste like human blood? Jesus wasn’t teaching cannibalism "John 6 he said, it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing.

Thoughts?

The substance (the “what-ness”) of the bread and wine is displaced with the substance (the “what-ness”) of Christ. The substances of the bread and wine go to Heaven. This is what it means, to “sacrifice” the bread and the wine on the Altar - it goes to Heaven. The priest’s sacrifice of bread and wine is replaced with Christ’s Sacrifice of Himself, which we then eat in obedience to His command, that we must eat and drink His flesh and blood.

Christ never gave us any commandment without also giving us the means to obey it - this is why He gave us the Catholic Mass. Obviously, to participate in a Catholic Mass, though, one must become a Catholic.