Sad and confused

[Mike30]

I have had the luck to attend a Jesuit Parish for many years. Right now we have 5 priests ranging in age from 36 to 71. Please read Brother JR’s wonderful explanation of Jesuit spirituality, it will help all doubters realize they have no need for concern about our Holy Father’s views!! Thank you again Brother JR for another enlightening post. God Bless You!

I too had the luck of attending a Jesuit run Parish for a number ot years. But it most definitely wasn’t good luck. The Parish was well to be charitable, I will say very progressive. All inclusive and every sort of liturgical innovation and/or experimentation was encouraged and accepted. The Jesuits of today are not quite what they were in years gone by. I am sure that my particular experiences are not everyone’s, but they did affect thousands of people and I somehow doubt mine was the only Parish worldwide so affected.

So you will excuse me if I don’t gush and go all dreamy eyed over the term Jesuit spirituality.

 

[hazcompat]

From a homily on Matthew by Saint John Chrysostom, bishop
Do not adorn the church and ignore your afflicted brother

Do you want to honor Christ’s body? Then do not scorn him in his nakedness, nor honor him here in the church with silken garments while neglecting him outside where he is cold and naked. For he who said: This is my body, and made it so by his words, also said: You saw me hungry and did not feed me, and inasmuch as you did not do it for one of these, the least of my brothers, you did not do it for me. What we do here in the church requires a pure heart, not special garments; what we do outside requires great dedication.

Let us learn, therefore to be men of wisdom and to honor Christ as he desires. For a person being honored finds greatest pleasure in the honor he desires, not in the honor we think best. Peter thought he was honoring Christ when he refused to let him wash his feet; but what Peter wanted was not truly an honor, quite the opposite! Give him the honor prescribed in his law by giving your riches to the poor. For God does not want golden vessels but golden hearts.

Now, in saying this I am not forbidding you to make such gifts; I am only demanding that along with such gifts and before them you give alms. He accepts the former, but he is much more pleased with the latter. In the former, only the giver profits; in the latter, the recipient does too. A gift to the Church may be taken as a form of ostentation, but an alms is pure kindness.

Of what use is it to weigh down Christ’s table with golden cups, when he himself is dying of hunger? First, fill him when he is hungry; then use the means you have left to adorn his table. Will you have a golden cup made but not give a cup of water? What is the use of providing the table with cloths woven of gold thread, and not providing Christ himself with the clothes he needs? What profit is there in that? Tell me: If you were to see him lacking the necessary food but were to leave him in that state and merely surround his table with gold, would he be grateful to you or rather would he not be angry? What if you were to see him clad in worn-out rags and stiff from the cold, and were to forget about clothing him and instead were to set up golden columns for him, saying that you were doing it in his honor? Would he not think he was being mocked and greatly insulted?

Apply this also to Christ when he comes along the roads as a pilgrim, looking for shelter. You do not take him in as your guest, but you decorate floor and walls and the capitals of the pillars. You provide silver chains for the lamps, but you cannot bear even to look at him as he lies chained in prison. Once again, I am not forbidding you to supply these adornments; I am urging you to provide these other things as well, and indeed to provide them first. No one has ever been accused for not providing ornaments, but for those who neglect their neighbor a hell awaits with an inextinguishable fire and torment in the company of the demons. Do not, therefore, adorn the church and ignore your afflicted brother, for he is the most precious temple of all.

Peace

 

[clem456]

From a homily on Matthew by Saint John Chrysostom, bishop
Do not adorn the church and ignore your afflicted brother

Do you want to honor Christ’s body? Then do not scorn him in his nakedness, nor honor him here in the church with silken garments while neglecting him outside where he is cold and naked. For he who said: This is my body, and made it so by his words, also said: You saw me hungry and did not feed me, and inasmuch as you did not do it for one of these, the least of my brothers, you did not do it for me. What we do here in the church requires a pure heart, not special garments; what we do outside requires great dedication.

Let us learn, therefore to be men of wisdom and to honor Christ as he desires. For a person being honored finds greatest pleasure in the honor he desires, not in the honor we think best. Peter thought he was honoring Christ when he refused to let him wash his feet; but what Peter wanted was not truly an honor, quite the opposite! Give him the honor prescribed in his law by giving your riches to the poor. For God does not want golden vessels but golden hearts.

Now, in saying this I am not forbidding you to make such gifts; I am only demanding that along with such gifts and before them you give alms. He accepts the former, but he is much more pleased with the latter. In the former, only the giver profits; in the latter, the recipient does too. A gift to the Church may be taken as a form of ostentation, but an alms is pure kindness.

Of what use is it to weigh down Christ’s table with golden cups, when he himself is dying of hunger? First, fill him when he is hungry; then use the means you have left to adorn his table. Will you have a golden cup made but not give a cup of water? What is the use of providing the table with cloths woven of gold thread, and not providing Christ himself with the clothes he needs? What profit is there in that? Tell me: If you were to see him lacking the necessary food but were to leave him in that state and merely surround his table with gold, would he be grateful to you or rather would he not be angry? What if you were to see him clad in worn-out rags and stiff from the cold, and were to forget about clothing him and instead were to set up golden columns for him, saying that you were doing it in his honor? Would he not think he was being mocked and greatly insulted?

Apply this also to Christ when he comes along the roads as a pilgrim, looking for shelter. You do not take him in as your guest, but you decorate floor and walls and the capitals of the pillars. You provide silver chains for the lamps, but you cannot bear even to look at him as he lies chained in prison. Once again, I am not forbidding you to supply these adornments; I am urging you to provide these other things as well, and indeed to provide them first. No one has ever been accused for not providing ornaments, but for those who neglect their neighbor a hell awaits with an inextinguishable fire and torment in the company of the demons. Do not, therefore, adorn the church and ignore your afflicted brother, for he is the most precious temple of all.

Peace

They didn’t call him Chrysostom for nothing!

 

[bilop]

And he has shown no signs of being such.

I wouldn’t say “no signs”, but I still have substantial hope he will be a good Pope. It’s not guaranteed though. Paul VI was an wonderful, holy man, but a pretty poor Pope.

I’m just saying that worst case, the Church will abide.

God Bless

 

[JReducation]

The Holy Father was an Archbishop for around 15 years if memory serves me. One would think that by now he would know how to speak to those outside of his order.

That’s one of many differences between belonging to an order or to a congregation. Religious who belong to a congregation change according to the needs of their ministry. Hence the term “congregation”, to gather around something. They come as a community around a ministry or a specific group of people.

Religious who belong to an order change only with their order, hence the term “order” from the concept of pattern. A religious who belongs to an order is taught from the novitiate days how to speak, work, pray, walk, play, dress and even brush his teeth. We do all do it the same way whether one is a bishop or the porter of one of our houses. The religious who enters an order exists to bring the order to the order’s worldview, mission and vision into the main body of the Church.

Both the religious congregation and the religious order are approved by the Church as holy and as leading its members to heaven. There is nothing false about them. There are definitely differences, but the Church considers these to be accidens not essence.

In this case, what one is seeing with a Jesuit pope, one asks is there much a difference between him and his order. There should not be or if there is, the differences should be in things that are not essential to Jesuit life and spirituality.

The truth is that what we hear the pope say is not contrary to the Jesuit spirit. If it’s not contrary to the Jesuit spirit, then it’s not contrary to the faith either. It may strike us as odd or even hard to wrap our heads around certain things; but one has to take the whole. If we look at everything that Pope Francis has said and done, not one sentence in isolation, we see only good. There is nothing there that would make one wonder if he’s a heretic or nuts. He’s obviously neither.

Whether his plan for the Church works or not, that’s a whole other story. Only time will tell. Those are very human things. God does not micromanage the Church or its popes. He inspires, but the pope, like everyone else has to discern and live everyone else, he can misunderstand. He will never misunderstand in matters of faith and morals, but he certainly can misunderstand where God is leading him in temporal matters.

 

[JReducation]

PS Mike ;

Thanks for your concern for my health. Keep me in prayer. I was in the hospital again and am on my way to the Dr for a post discharge follow up.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

“Pope Traumatic Stress Disorder” - that about sums it up.

 

[clem456]

Have faith in God, not man.

Even if Pope Francis turns out to be a horrible Pope, the Church has survived worse.

God Bless

Rather than “surviving worse” I’d like to think of the Church as full of vitality.
From the CCC

…the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. “Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church.” In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him “the fullness of the means of salvation” which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

 

[Ceil-1]

I am the one who is Sad and Confused.

I am far less scandalized by what this pope has said than I am scandalized by the insidiously destructive attitudes of the traditionalists and their cleverly disguised divisive tactics.

Perhaps they will not realize, until their individual judgment days, what moral suffering they cause people to undergo through cleverly cloaked remarks and their buddies chiming in consent (the oldest tactic in the book).

Such commentary reveals scrupulosity, and is a flaw to say the least. The commentary is neither solicited, nor is it important to the situation, but, tell these people that. Anyhow…

The fruits of the Holy Spirit are as follows according to the Scripture (surely the Traditionalists will not find fault with the Douay-Rheims 1899 edition, but, then again, who can account for scrupulosity? So, just in case:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience,** benignity**, goodness, longanimity,

23 Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law.

We will see where this pope fits in with all of this, but, so far he seems to be going pretty strong on some of these. The Traditionalists, I am sorry to say…not so much in the charity, benignity, and modesty department. I have resolved, for my part, to use these as my daily examination of conscience.

 

[bilop]

I am the one who is Sad and Confused.

I am far less scandalized by what this pope has said than I am scandalized by the insidiously destructive attitudes of the traditionalists and their cleverly disguised divisive tactics.

Perhaps they will not realize, until their individual judgment days, what moral suffering they cause people to undergo through cleverly cloaked remarks and their buddies chiming in consent (the oldest tactic in the book).

Such commentary reveals scrupulosity, and is a flaw to say the least. The commentary is neither solicited, nor is it important to the situation, but, tell these people that. Anyhow…

The fruits of the Holy Spirit are as follows according to the Scripture (surely the Traditionalists will not find fault with the Douay-Rheims 1899 edition, but, then again, who can account for scrupulosity? So, just in case:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience,** benignity**, goodness, longanimity,

23 Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law.

We will see where this pope fits in with all of this, but, so far he seems to be going pretty strong on some of these. The Traditionalists, I am sorry to say…not so much in the charity, benignity, and modesty department. I have resolved, for my part, to use these as my daily examination of conscience.

How is being worried about some confusing statements the Pope has made “destructive” or “divisive”? I think it is right to worry if poorly worded, mis-reported or mis-translated statements from the Holy Father are leading people into error, or confirming them in their error.

I’m hardly a “Traditionalist”; I go to an OF Mass about 48 of 52 weeks of the year. But, I worry about people being mislead as to the Truths the Church teaches. I care about their souls.

Everything a Pope says isn’t automatically correct; the Pope is not impeccable. Let’s not fall into Papal-idolatry.

God Bless

 

[Ceil-1]

Every word this man is recorded to say is put through the ringer. The evidence of this is rife on this forum. Intention is everything. I can not judge the intention of all these people, but, there is a mild subterfuge that I find most distasteful. I am just giving my opinion as is everyone else. Why is it these people can question the pope himself, and his intentions, but am not permitted to question theirs, much less get a straight answer?

 

[bilop]

Every word this man is recorded to say is put through the ringer. The evidence of this is rife on this forum. Intention is everything. I can not judge the intention of all these people, but, there is a mild subterfuge that I find most distasteful. I am just giving my opinion as is everyone else. Why is it these people can question the pope himself, and his intentions, but am not permitted to question theirs, much less get a straight answer?

You certainly have a right to question anyone you want to.

But, it makes more sense to question specific things specific people have said. The questions about the Pope’s statements have been about very specific statements.

Part of the problem people are having is this Pope is making statements that are NOT recorded, but are being interpreted by interviewers of doubtful orthodoxy or intention.

God Bless

 

[JReducation]

How is being worried about some confusing statements the Pope has made “destructive” or “divisive”? I think it is right to worry if poorly worded, mis-reported or mis-translated statements from the Holy Father are leading people into error, or confirming them in their error.

I’m hardly a “Traditionalist”; I go to an OF Mass about 48 of 52 weeks of the year. But, I worry about people being mislead as to the Truths the Church teaches. I care about their souls.

Everything a Pope says isn’t automatically correct; the Pope is not impeccable. Let’s not fall into Papal-idolatry.

God Bless

I would not say that this “worry” belongs to one group or another. However, I do believe that there is such a thing as over indulging in matters of faith…

If you eat too much ice cream, you’re going to get sick, even though ice cream is delicious. If you take too much of a certain medicine, you’re going to intoxicate yourself, even though this medicine is generally very good.

The same way, I believe that some people overindulge in religion. Not a day goes by when they don’t check out CAF, other internet sites, the news, or other people for “information” on religion, even though they know that they’re going to find something that’s going to upset them.

Now, take a religious, such as me or one who lives in any other situation. We run into the information here and there. Then we look at today’s schedule and we see:

5:00 Matins
5:30 Meditation
6:00 Lauds
6:30 Lectio
7:00 Mass
8:00 Breakfast
9:00 Work
12:00 Lunch
1:00 Midday Prayer
2:00 Rest, dentist, doctor, auto mechanic, groceries or visit Mr. Smith in hospital
4:00 Vespers
4:30 Rosary
5:00 Dinner
6:00 Clean or outside activity
7:00 Meeting # 1 (if there is a mtg)
8:00 Meeting #2 (if there is a mtg)
9:00 Community Recreation
10:00 Compline
10:30 “I’m exhausted”

When I run into this stuff, my reaction is to say, “I don’t have time for this. Unless the pope is coming across the Atlantic to cover my duties and I doubt that very highly”. I move right along.

Unless the pope speaks heresy or says that he’s putting the Vatican up for sale, one has to learn not to overindulge or overload oneself with so much information that one becomes intoxicated. That’s not healthy spirituality.

In a healthy Christian spirituality one maintains one’s focus in one’s present moment and in those things that are directly before us and things where we can make a difference. I can make a difference in world hunger. I can’t make a difference because the pope said something and the media reports it. As far as I’m concerned that’s like any other world leader. They’re going to say things, some things are more formal than others, the media may get it right or may not. The relationship between the pope and the media is no exception.

If we look at the whole picture, the pope has not done or said what has never been said or what is contrary to what has been said in the past.

 

[McCall1981]

Every word this man is recorded to say is put through the ringer. The evidence of this is rife on this forum. Intention is everything. I can not judge the intention of all these people, but, there is a mild subterfuge that I find most distasteful. I am just giving my opinion as is everyone else. Why is it these people can question the pope himself, and his intentions, but am not permitted to question theirs, much less get a straight answer?

The man is the spiritual leader for over a BILLION people, of course his every word is put through ringer, when he speaks publically about the faith.

 

[bilop]

I would not say that this “worry” belongs to one group or another. However, I do believe that there is such a thing as over indulging in matters of faith…

If you eat too much ice cream, you’re going to get sick, even though ice cream is delicious. If you take too much of a certain medicine, you’re going to intoxicate yourself, even though this medicine is generally very good.

The same way, I believe that some people overindulge in religion. Not a day goes by when they don’t check out CAF, other internet sites, the news, or other people for “information” on religion, even though they know that they’re going to find something that’s going to upset them.

Now, take a religious, such as me or one who lives in any other situation. We run into the information here and there. Then we look at today’s schedule and we see:

5:00 Matins
5:30 Meditation
6:00 Lauds
6:30 Lectio
7:00 Mass
8:00 Breakfast
9:00 Work
12:00 Lunch
1:00 Midday Prayer
2:00 Rest, dentist, doctor, auto mechanic, groceries or visit Mr. Smith in hospital
4:00 Vespers
4:30 Rosary
5:00 Dinner
6:00 Clean or outside activity
7:00 Meeting # 1 (if there is a mtg)
8:00 Meeting #2 (if there is a mtg)
9:00 Community Recreation
10:00 Compline
10:30 “I’m exhausted”

When I run into this stuff, my reaction is to say, “I don’t have time for this. Unless the pope is coming across the Atlantic to cover my duties and I doubt that very highly”. I move right along.

Unless the pope speaks heresy or says that he’s putting the Vatican up for sale, one has to learn not to overindulge or overload oneself with so much information that one becomes intoxicated. That’s not healthy spirituality.

In a healthy Christian spirituality one maintains one’s focus in one’s present moment and in those things that are directly before us and things where we can make a difference. I can make a difference in world hunger. I can’t make a difference because the pope said something and the media reports it. As far as I’m concerned that’s like any other world leader. They’re going to say things, some things are more formal than others, the media may get it right or may not. The relationship between the pope and the media is no exception.

If we look at the whole picture, the pope has not done or said what has never been said or what is contrary to what has been said in the past.

I don’t disagree with anything you say here.

I think part of the issue is that a lot of us were greatly enriched by the speaking and writings of John Paul II and Benedict XVI; edified and strengthened in our faith.

We were looking for the same thing from Francis, and so far, we’ve gotten a lot of confusion.

He has said some great things (I think he was spot on on the modern idolatry of money), and some real head-scratchers. To top it off, in most of these interviews, we’re not even sure he actually said what it’s reported he said.

I asked a very orthodox parish priest I know what his congregation’s response to Francis has been. His answer “They’re confused”.

Me too. We’re confused, and that’s unsettling, so we go looking for answers and clarification.

God Bless

 

[Ceil-1]

What need has anyone to micro-analyze every word this man says? Who makes these people the pope-police? Hanging on every word he says in hopes he will say something that will justiy all the criticism? Maybe, it would even fulfill all those sedevacantist prophecies, even. All the wasted time "pontificating back and forth. Time that could be spent doing good works. It gets so tiresome. There is no justification, from a Catholic, spiritual standpoint. We are supposed to be imitating Christ.

If the pope starts saying something against the Faith as put forth from the Magisterium, then, it will be known in short order. If it has to be put through a magnifying glass, then, I say, do unto others and give the man the “benefit of the doubt” and give him a break. HIs style is a bit, mmm, informal. I think it is a refreshing change. He doesn’t have to be a “good” pope, in the eyes of these Traditional types. To be “good” in the eyes of these types, the pope would have to be elected from among themselves, so it is a moot point.

Justify it all you want. Bottom line, it is as mean-spirited as its tone conveys and that is all there is to it. I’M JUST SAYING. St. Francis, who even the traditionalists can’t find fault with would order silence under holy obedience, for such a lack of charity, I am sure

 

[bilop]

What need has anyone to micro-analyze every word this man says? Who makes these people the pope-police? Hanging on every word he says in hopes he will say something that will justiy all the criticism? Maybe, it would even fulfill all those sedevacantist prophecies, even. All the wasted time "pontificating back and forth. Time that could be spent doing good works. It gets so tiresome. There is no justification, from a Catholic, spiritual standpoint. We are supposed to be imitating Christ.

If the pope starts saying something against the Faith as put forth from the Magisterium, then, it will be known in short order. If it has to be put through a magnifying glass, then, I say, do unto others and give the man the “benefit of the doubt” and give him a break. HIs style is a bit, mmm, informal. I think it is a refreshing change. He doesn’t have to be a “good” pope, in the eyes of these Traditional types. To be “good” in the eyes of these types, the pope would have to be elected from among themselves, so it is a moot point.

Justify it all you want. Bottom line, it is as mean-spirited as its tone conveys and that is all there is to it. I’M JUST SAYING. St. Francis, who even the traditionalists can’t find fault with would order silence under holy obedience, for such a lack of charity, I am sure

I don’t think that is what’s happening. 99% of people are legitimately trying to understand what the Pope is saying. He’s the Pope; they assume he’s speaking publicly for some important reason, and want to understand him.

Since when is trying to understand the Pope’s teaching a bad thing?

Also, St. Francis would not be so presumptuous as to order silence of people over whom he has no jurisdiction.

God Bless

 

[JReducation]

I don’t disagree with anything you say here.

I think part of the issue is that a lot of us were greatly enriched by the speaking and writings of John Paul II and Benedict XVI; edified and strengthened in our faith.

We were looking for the same thing from Francis, and so far, we’ve gotten a lot of confusion.

He has said some great things (I think he was spot on on the modern idolatry of money), and some real head-scratchers. To top it off, in most of these interviews, we’re not even sure he actually said what it’s reported he said.

I asked a very orthodox parish priest I know what his congregation’s response to Francis has been. His answer “They’re confused”.

Me too. We’re confused, and that’s unsettling, so we go looking for answers and clarification.

God Bless

I think this is the point I’m trying to make. When Rome says something that confuses me, my first question is, “Is this really important?”

If it’s not, I lay it aside and move along. I refuse to intoxicate myself with things that have nothing to do with my daily life. I value my inner silence and I’m not about to let things that have nothing to do with me take it away.

We need to cultivate interior silence. It’s in the silence that God speaks to the soul, not on the Internet.

 

[bilop]

I think this is the point I’m trying to make. When Rome says something that confuses me, my first question is, “Is this really important?”

If it’s not, I lay it aside and move along. I refuse to intoxicate myself with things that have nothing to do with my daily life. I value my inner silence and I’m not about to let things that have nothing to do with me take it away.

We need to cultivate interior silence. It’s in the silence that God speaks to the soul, not on the Internet.

I get this, but it’s a big change. The last two Popes (the only one’s I remember) only spoke publicly when saying something important. So, I’m in the habit of paying attention when the Pope speaks.

This Pope seems intent on making off-the-cuff remarks. So, I guess I have to learn to “tune-out” the Pope somewhat. But that feels odd to me.

God Bless

 

[clem456]

I get this, but it’s a big change. The last two Popes (the only one’s I remember) only spoke publicly when saying something important. So, I’m in the habit of paying attention when the Pope speaks.

This Pope seems intent on making off-the-cuff remarks. So, I guess I have to learn to “tune-out” the Pope somewhat. But that feels odd to me.

God Bless

Problem for me is to tune myself out. If I can do that everyone else makes more sense.