sad baptism

[rkberlin]

Hi,
I need to ask you for advice: My brother and sister-in-law got married in a Lutheran Church, it was supposed to be an ecumenical wedding. They now have 2 children, my niece was baptized in 2001 and today was my nephew’s baptism. they decided to have them baptized Catholic. They both don’t go to chucrch, my sister-in-law despises Catholisism, and so does the rest of her family. My niece is in a Lutheran day care center, but will go to Catholic school next year, because that school has a better reputation than the other school she’s zoned for. My sister-in-law and her mother don’t let a chance pass by without critizising Catholic traditions. The baptism ceremony was so sad today! The Godparents were 1 Catholic and one Lutheran lady ( Catechism question: huh? I thought the godparents are both supposed to be Catholic? ). Upon the confession of faith, " do you believe ion the holy Catholic and apostolic Church", the Lutheran lady scoffed quite loudly and shook her head, and she didn’t answer. throughout all the questions you couldn’t hear any of them say anything audibly. My mom and I were the only two responding to prayers and such. How horrible! This was my nephew’s big day, the day he was supposed to be initiated into the community of believers, and there was so much indifference there! Then my sister-in-law complained that the priest didn’t do more personal things. I said " why should he? You guys don’t practice anything, he doesn’t know you or your kids, you made it clear it was only a formal thing and he’s kept it formal." She’s now mad at me. I was so sad that these kids will not have any religion in their lives. How can I deal with this? I’m really upset right now. I’m my niece’s godmother, the godfather is Lutheran. She doesn’t even know how to make the sign of the cross and her mom doesn’t want me to confuse her. Confuse her? She’S Catholic, right? I’m the Godmother, isn’t it my duty to share our faith? Help anybody? Thanks
God bless

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Well, here’s some good news!!! Your niece’s so-called “Lutheran godfather” and the Lutheran lady who was there today are not godparents to the Church. They are “Christian witnesses”.

You’re right, this was a sad representation, and I have to wonder at your brother. He is the one who should have taught the little girl the sign of the cross. I wonder what he had to do to get his kids baptized, and what kind of compromises he’s had to make to get the little girl in Catholic school.

So, after prayer on the part of you and your mom (this is prayer that will last quite a long time), you need to start with your brother. Be gentle with him, but get it through his head that showing up for the sacramental ceremonies is just the start. Take him out to lunch, away from his wife. Ask how you can help him, as you ARE the godparent. Listen not just to what he says, but how he says it. Clarify his words with him. Make sure you understand him.

The next part sounds evil in a way: Without bad-mouthing your sister-in-law’s religion in any way, you have to model the Catholic Faith as attractive to your niece.

When she starts school, you are the one who brings her a pretty rosary in a case she can open (in any school that is half-way Catholic, this is an item she will need, and her mom will not want to buy). Mom will not like anything Catholic, but Mom will NOT want her little darling to be the only one without one, counting on her fingers, or having to constantly use the “lend” rosary. And that is how it should be explained to Mom: Her little girl will feel “left out of the loop” without one, and “everybody” will have their own.

Likewise, your niece’s Catholic Bible and missal. Likewise, if there is a family Sunday or Saturday evening Mass at their parish, you volunteer to take her- knowing that “all the other kids go to this Mass” and how you are helping her “fit in”.

You never contradict Mom. You ask your brother’s permission, and let them hash it out if he gives it. If the little girl comes tale-bearing about what Mommy said, if it’s harsh, you say, “I’m sure she didn’t mean anything by it” and smile- even if she called you the worst name in the book. If it comes to blows between your brother and sister-in-law, you excuse yourself and tell them you’ll be happy to try at another time.

And all that time, you pray, and you keep up on your Faith, so that you have all that grace, and so nobody can say Auntie is a hypocrite.

I’m praying for you right now. All this is not easy- not easy to hear, not easy to do.

 

[Tedster]

rkberlin:

The baptism ceremony was so sad today! The Godparents were 1 Catholic and one Lutheran lady ( Catechism question: huh? I thought the godparents are both supposed to be Catholic? ). Upon the confession of faith, " do you believe ion the holy Catholic and apostolic Church", the Lutheran lady scoffed quite loudly and shook her head, and she didn’t answer. throughout all the questions you couldn’t hear any of them say anything audibly.

Shame on the Pastor who allowed this to happen. Doesn’t your parish have requirements, and aren’t they enforced? I guess it wouldn’t be the first time, would it?

rkberlin:

She’s now mad at me. I was so sad that these kids will not have any religion in their lives. How can I deal with this?

Prayer. It’s your best chance to change her mind. Let God take over. Pray hard.

rkberlin:

She doesn’t even know how to make the sign of the cross and her mom doesn’t want me to confuse her. Confuse her? She’S Catholic, right? I’m the Godmother, isn’t it my duty to share our faith?

Absolutely it is your duty. But you cannot go against the mother either. I know this because my wife and I baptised my brother’s son (his mother is Mormon but I won’t go into that whole mess).

She had agreed to raise their children Catholic, but has since changed her mind and is raising them Mormon (I think my brother is as much to blame, but the situation is very fragile).

It is very difficult to live up to your comittment as Godparent, but you cannot alienate the mother either. Pray for you Godchildren. It’s about all you can do.

 

[puzzleannie]

rkberlin:

Hi,. She doesn’t even know how to make the sign of the cross and her mom doesn’t want me to confuse her. Confuse her? She’S Catholic, right? I’m the Godmother, isn’t it my duty to share our faith? Help anybody? Thanks
God bless

she will be plenty confused when she starts Catholic school and brings home what she learns at school only to hear ridicule and derision at home.

 

[Catholic_Heart]

I’m so sorry your nephew’s baptism was not all it should have been…However…One thing…Only ONE of the people who stand up with the parents needs to be a Catholic…The other may simply be a Christian Witness.

Here’s your golden opportunity to step up to the plate and help your nephew live a Catholic life…Always ask your brother for permission, and as has been said…Let them hash it all out…You will be there to help see that your nephew gets to Mass and other activities, as he grows older. Good luck…

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

rkberlin:

Hi,
I need to ask you for advice: My brother and sister-in-law got married in a Lutheran Church, it was supposed to be an ecumenical wedding. They now have 2 children, my niece was baptized in 2001 and today was my nephew’s baptism. they decided to have them baptized Catholic. They both don’t go to chucrch, my sister-in-law despises Catholisism, and so does the rest of her family. My niece is in a Lutheran day care center, but will go to Catholic school next year, because that school has a better reputation than the other school she’s zoned for. My sister-in-law and her mother don’t let a chance pass by without critizising Catholic traditions. The baptism ceremony was so sad today! The Godparents were 1 Catholic and one Lutheran lady ( Catechism question: huh? I thought the godparents are both supposed to be Catholic? ). Upon the confession of faith, " do you believe ion the holy Catholic and apostolic Church", the Lutheran lady scoffed quite loudly and shook her head, and she didn’t answer. throughout all the questions you couldn’t hear any of them say anything audibly. My mom and I were the only two responding to prayers and such. How horrible! This was my nephew’s big day, the day he was supposed to be initiated into the community of believers, and there was so much indifference there! Then my sister-in-law complained that the priest didn’t do more personal things. I said " why should he? You guys don’t practice anything, he doesn’t know you or your kids, you made it clear it was only a formal thing and he’s kept it formal." She’s now mad at me. I was so sad that these kids will not have any religion in their lives. How can I deal with this? I’m really upset right now. I’m my niece’s godmother, the godfather is Lutheran. She doesn’t even know how to make the sign of the cross and her mom doesn’t want me to confuse her. Confuse her? She’S Catholic, right? I’m the Godmother, isn’t it my duty to share our faith? Help anybody? Thanks
God bless

The Lutheran lady was not the Godmother. She was a simple “Christian Witness” to the Baptism. If you are the Godmother to the other child you should teach as much as possible whenever you can.

 

[rkberlin]

Oh, this isn’t our parish, this is about an hour away from our parish. They only chose the baptism there, because the "church is so pretty “. The pastor does baptisms there onan appointment schedule. If you belong to the parish, good, but if you don’t he’ll still do it, if you’re zoned for that parish. My brother is, so they went for it. I like the idea that the sacrament isn’t denied, but still…should have been more from from my brother’s side. the pastor did well, considering the circumstances. Our parish is doing things very differently. The pastor would’ve probably said, " excuse me, I can’t hear any of you, do you want the devil in your life or what?” he’s very outspoken. So, I thought the priest did well, he let my girls be altar servers and worked beautifully with them. It’s the recipient’s parents that made this event so sad.
God bless

Tedster:

Shame on the Pastor who allowed this to happen. Doesn’t your parish have requirements, and aren’t they enforced? I guess it wouldn’t be the first time, would it?

Prayer. It’s your best chance to change her mind. Let God take over. Pray hard.

Absolutely it is your duty. But you cannot go against the mother either. I know this because my wife and I baptised my brother’s son (his mother is Mormon but I won’t go into that whole mess).

She had agreed to raise their children Catholic, but has since changed her mind and is raising them Mormon (I think my brother is as much to blame, but the situation is very fragile).

It is very difficult to live up to your comittment as Godparent, but you cannot alienate the mother either. Pray for you Godchildren. It’s about all you can do.

 

[rkberlin]

ok, here comes my excuse, please don’t yell ! They live about an hour away from us, I would love to take my niece to Mass with us every Sunday, she’d love it. We have a great children’s Mass, the priest always includes the children, with the prayers of the faithful, to bringing the gifts forward, to gathering by the altar for the Our Father etc. My mom is quite saddened by the fact, that we can’t really just get her and take her. They always have things planned for Sunday morning, too, such as breakfasts with friends, sleepovers, whatever. So, only when they come to visit we’ll say grace before eating, with helping make the sign of the cross. She watches her older cousins closely and wants to be like them anyway, so she usually follows. We then join her in saying the cute little prayer she learned in Lutheran daycare ( it could pass for a Catholic one ). She seems to be curious about her, but I’m so limited. My sister-in-law told me last night she’s going to “withdraw the honor to be Godmother if I keep acting up”. I consider it a binding contract. I usually give her a little Godparent gift for holidays sp she gets the message. Thank you for your prayers! I know I should start with my brother, but he’s making comments like " I need to shave my head, walk over glowing coals because I have the pre baptism talk with the priest". Can you really talk to somebody like that? My kids are big helpers already, they talk about their faith openly, so maybe one day something will stick to either of them. Please pray for my courageous girls also, and they’re only 8 asnd 11, so filled with the Holy Spirit! Have a blessed 1st of Advent, thanks
God bless

OutinChgoburbs:

Well, here’s some good news!!! Your niece’s so-called “Lutheran godfather” and the Lutheran lady who was there today are not godparents to the Church. They are “Christian witnesses”.

You’re right, this was a sad representation, and I have to wonder at your brother. He is the one who should have taught the little girl the sign of the cross. I wonder what he had to do to get his kids baptized, and what kind of compromises he’s had to make to get the little girl in Catholic school.

So, after prayer on the part of you and your mom (this is prayer that will last quite a long time), you need to start with your brother. Be gentle with him, but get it through his head that showing up for the sacramental ceremonies is just the start. Take him out to lunch, away from his wife. Ask how you can help him, as you ARE the godparent. Listen not just to what he says, but how he says it. Clarify his words with him. Make sure you understand him.

The next part sounds evil in a way: Without bad-mouthing your sister-in-law’s religion in any way, you have to model the Catholic Faith as attractive to your niece.

When she starts school, you are the one who brings her a pretty rosary in a case she can open (in any school that is half-way Catholic, this is an item she will need, and her mom will not want to buy). Mom will not like anything Catholic, but Mom will NOT want her little darling to be the only one without one, counting on her fingers, or having to constantly use the “lend” rosary. And that is how it should be explained to Mom: Her little girl will feel “left out of the loop” without one, and “everybody” will have their own.

Likewise, your niece’s Catholic Bible and missal. Likewise, if there is a family Sunday or Saturday evening Mass at their parish, you volunteer to take her- knowing that “all the other kids go to this Mass” and how you are helping her “fit in”.

You never contradict Mom. You ask your brother’s permission, and let them hash it out if he gives it. If the little girl comes tale-bearing about what Mommy said, if it’s harsh, you say, “I’m sure she didn’t mean anything by it” and smile- even if she called you the worst name in the book. If it comes to blows between your brother and sister-in-law, you excuse yourself and tell them you’ll be happy to try at another time.

And all that time, you pray, and you keep up on your Faith, so that you have all that grace, and so nobody can say Auntie is a hypocrite.

I’m praying for you right now. All this is not easy- not easy to hear, not easy to do.

 

[genealogist]

Goo dfor you for trying to do the right thing. You need to let your SIL know that this is not an “honor” that she can change whether she likes you or not. It is fine if she does not like the Catholic Church but then why baptize the children there? Why use our school? How dare she!! She and your brother also should be ashamed of themselves for allowing their Christian witness to behave in such a way. If you are a guest you act respectfully even if you can’t participate or agree.

My wife is not Catholic and while we have our problems she would NEVER act or allow her guests to act this way at our kids’ baptisms. In fact the last time we had a friend as a Christian witness(CW) along with a Catholic sponsor. CW responded appropriately and remained reverently silent during the Litany of the Saints.

Unfortunately you will have to bite your tongue but SIL needs to realize that Catholic school is to make children Catholic. They have started on that road and have no right to send a confused potentially bitter child to mess up the class’ faith. You got great advice above and need to follow it for your niece’s sake.

This is the NUMBER ONE REASON the Church needs to be more assertive in SAYING no to mixed couples who are not following the rules. It would be one thing if she were a great Lutheran and they baptized the kids there and were raising them Lutheran. The Church would frown on that but your brother would not be excommunicated or censured as long as he were doing all in his power. Here though neither practice and your niece and nephew would be better off non-baptized then the situation they are in now. Is there an ecumenical Lutheran pastor in your area who could speak to her and make her realize that she is dead wrong to act this way?

 

[rkberlin]

Thank you for your kind words, I absolutely agree. We were wondering why they had them baptized Catholic. My husband used to be mormon and on our wedding, the Deacon just had us promise to raise the children Christian. I had them baptized Catholic, he never objected, in fact, he started coming to church with us and converted a couple of years ago. Lutheran and Catholic here in germany are pretty similar, and I would have rather she 'd have them baptized Lutheran, as then she’d teach them about her religion, considering my brother’s detest for church. I will try and find out about a Lutheran ecumenical pastor, problem is though, since neither is practicing ANYTHING, it’ll be hard for a pastor to want to work hard for a potentially useless case. Have a blessed week, thanks again

genealogist:

Goo dfor you for trying to do the right thing. You need to let your SIL know that this is not an “honor” that she can change whether she likes you or not. It is fine if she does not like the Catholic Church but then why baptize the children there? Why use our school? How dare she!! She and your brother also should be ashamed of themselves for allowing their Christian witness to behave in such a way. If you are a guest you act respectfully even if you can’t participate or agree.

My wife is not Catholic and while we have our problems she would NEVER act or allow her guests to act this way at our kids’ baptisms. In fact the last time we had a friend as a Christian witness(CW) along with a Catholic sponsor. CW responded appropriately and remained reverently silent during the Litany of the Saints.

Unfortunately you will have to bite your tongue but SIL needs to realize that Catholic school is to make children Catholic. They have started on that road and have no right to send a confused potentially bitter child to mess up the class’ faith. You got great advice above and need to follow it for your niece’s sake.

This is the NUMBER ONE REASON the Church needs to be more assertive in SAYING no to mixed couples who are not following the rules. It would be one thing if she were a great Lutheran and they baptized the kids there and were raising them Lutheran. The Church would frown on that but your brother would not be excommunicated or censured as long as he were doing all in his power. Here though neither practice and your niece and nephew would be better off non-baptized then the situation they are in now. Is there an ecumenical Lutheran pastor in your area who could speak to her and make her realize that she is dead wrong to act this way?

 

[Brendan]

I know many others have shown that the Lutheran party involved in the Baptism was there as a “Christian Witness”

I though I’d offer the relevant Canon.

Can. 874 §1 To be admitted to undertake the office of sponsor, a person must:

1° be appointed by the candidate for baptism, or by the parents or whoever stands in their place, or failing these, by the parish priest or the minister; to be appointed the person must be suitable for this role and have the intention of fulfilling it;

2° be not less than sixteen years of age, unless a different age has been stipulated by the diocesan Bishop, or unless the parish priest or the minister considers that there is a just reason for an exception to be made;

3° be a catholic who has been confirmed and has received the blessed Eucharist, and who lives a life of faith which befits the role to be undertaken;

4° not labor under a canonical penalty, whether imposed or declared;

5° not be either the father or the mother of the person to be baptized.

§2 A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community may be admitted only in company with a catholic sponsor, and then simply as a witness to the baptism.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

rkberlin:

My sister-in-law told me last night she’s going to “withdraw the honor to be Godmother if I keep acting up”.

You will also be happy to know that your sister-in-law can’t “withdraw” the “honor”. The only one who can request such a thing is your brother, the Catholic (however nominally) and for his request to be honored, you would have to do something horrible, like join another religion, or go totally against the Faith. Of course, your sister-in-law is under the misimpression that those Lutherans she stuck in as Christian Witnesses are actually recognized godparents, so whatever…

You seem to have a start on things. Keep asking, keep being polite and “offering to help” and of course, keep praying.

 

[stbruno]

My spouse and I do baptismal prep…I wonder, did your family members attend such a class? We strongly encourage those who have been asked to be sponsors to attend as well, so they know their responsibilities on accepting this role. And definitely, the Lutheran sponsor acted as a Christian witness and not a godparent.

In my opinion, more catechesis needs to be done for the parents who hopefully will fulfill what they promised…to raise their child up into the faith of which she was baptized. And if that takes your intervention, you are only fulfilling the role of which they asked you to do. Pray and pray always for your family members.

 

[aria13]

What a sad Baptismal day for the family! What an immature response from the lady! I don’t know what Lutheran church she attends, but to scoff at the words “holy catholic church” is a bit bizarre to say the least. I don’t know what Nicene creed they use at her church, but many…possibly most…Lutheran churches use the same Nicene Creed as the Catholic church. It is explained that the term “catholic” in lower case letters, means “all, whole…the church of Christian believers as a whole, unified church.” The word “Catholic”…capitalized, means the Catholic Church. She could very well have been from a very conservative, old school Lutheran church…i.e…Wisconsin Synod, some Missouri Lutheran. But, as a Lutheran myself, I find this horribly immature, and very improper. She wanted to make some kind of a statement…and the statement she made about herself was quite clear.

I do feel it is very sad though that the Church cannot yet recognize all believers to be good candidates for sponsors in a Baptism. For my girls, who are baptized Lutheran, the church would have preferred Lutheran sponsors, but they gladly accepted any believer in Christ who will help take on the responsiblilty of to raising the child in a Christian life. We never made a vow to raise them Lutheran, but to raise them Christian, to live a life in Christ. It’s up to the parents to make a WISE and appropriate decision for their child’s sponsors. I don’t think this woman was a wise choice, no matter what faith she represents! She could very well be seen as a
“Lutheran stuck in as a Christian Witness,” but I wouldn’t have “stuck her in” anywhere. (Chicago burbs…not the best choice of words.)

I take my job as sponsor for my God children very seriously, and yes, there is a Catholic child. I was told I was a sponsor for this child, and will uphold the parent’s raising this child Catholic. I’m very proud of this role, and honored that the parents chose me. They were new to town, and knew no one very well in the church. I wasn’t “stuck in” this role…I was chosen by the parents, and I am this child’s sponsor. I am blessed.

Have a wonderful day everyone!

 

[LSK]

And shame on these two “Christian” people for allowing their own bigotry to show so plainly - how can they kneel before the Lord and expect to be recognized when they behave so badly and represent His Teachings in that manner? Whether they put “Lutheren” or “Catholic” in front of “Christian” doesn’t matter; bigotry is bigotry.

Keep them in your prayers and stay close. Those children are going to need your love, your kindness and your example.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

aria13:

She could very well be seen as a
“Lutheran stuck in as a Christian Witness,” but I wouldn’t have “stuck her in” anywhere. (Chicago burbs…not the best choice of words.)

Excuse me if I offended you. I mean no harm to Lutherans. My own sister is a Lutheran. (Missouri Synod, BTW. The Lutheran sister-in-law in question belongs to whatever they have over Germany, as that “berlin” in the OP’s name represents where she lives- Berlin, Berlin, Bundersrepublik Deutschland.)

My remark was meant more to reassure rkberlin, and to bring home the tit-for-tat aspect of the choosing of godparents in this instance.

As for why the Catholic Church does not allow non-Catholics to be godparents: The Church teaches that we are passing on the One, True Church to our children; not just any form of Christianity will do in this instance. The person or persons who would be qualified for this task are parents who are practicing Catholics, and godparents who are practicing Catholics. You should know that if a priest thinks a child is not going to be raised Catholic, he is obliged not to baptize that child. As only one godparent is necessary if godparents are being used, the Church allows one other Christian Witness. But that person does not have any obligation to assist in raising the child as Catholic. That person is merely there to witness the baptism.