Sad for protestants

[SpiritMeadow]

Truth and popularity don’t often travel together.

Which do you choose?

YOu know, I thought I might get an apology after your attack on me and my supposed arrogance. After reading my reply and learning of your error in reading, I thought perhaps you might approach discussion a bit softer.

But I see that nothing has changed. I read your veiled attack in this as well. I’m not sure there is any real evidence that truth and popularity don’t often travel together. That smacks more of the martyr syndrome that true factual knowledge. At least you point to nothing by which to sustain such an argument.

But certainly I place truth above popularity as would any thinking person. No doubt you assume that it resides in your church. I think a good deal of it does, but I have found that in some instances, I do believe it has strayed badly from truth. I reside where I find truth. The fact that my church, once yours, is now something you despise, is not my problem of course, but it does most definitely cloud your opinion.

It is always sad that to love one’s own faith community requires hatred of others. My church teaches no such doctrine, and I suspect Jesus doesn’t condone it either. He was quite clear in his fellowship with those who were not “orthodox” Jews of his day.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

No doubt there are some that are intent on that mission, but at least here, there are far outweighed by those of the RC faith, who can say nothing else in post after post, until one is forced to believe that they simply “protest too much” and indeed cannot abide their faith unless this belief is true.

SM, let me ask you something. Do you agree that Scripture holds the Church at Rome in the highest esteem? And do you agree that say, at least for the first five centuries or so of Christianity, the Roman Church continued to be held in the highest esteem by all of Christendom?

More what I find is that some actually conclude that Jesus started no church but was intent on reforming his own. (anathama to any RC to be sure, since dissent is called heresy ironically within her walls, something Jesus might have been quite shocked about no doubt).

Are there no “heretics” in your church?

To this end, of course, for some years following the crucifixion and resurrection, followers of the Way continued to worship in the synagogue, before they were turned out in the end.

And your point?

You can say it all you wish, but just because a goodly number of non-RC’s continue to believe that the RCC was a later coalescence of disparate churches under their own authority, it is not necessarily so that the RCC was a Church as such from day one. A whole slue of Catholic theologians would dispute this with you.

Even if true, so what? Look, within the Church you’re going to find every conceivable opinion known to man. That’s just the way it is, and the way it always has been. But who cares? Such a cacophony is not the voice of the Church.

It’s all true, exactly as my Church says, or none of it is. Sad, but true. I am always saddened by the willingness to follow and defend because one is ordered to do so.

Now this is just crazy!! What are you talking about? Who’s being “ordered” and to do what???

And I’m just curious: do you believe in the Devil?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Yep, I immediately thought of Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians…and am not sure if anyone else, who also have at least some of the Sacraments and many other commonalities.

I don’t think these are the denominations we Catholics immediately think of when we say “protestants” and yet the Evangelicals don’t feel that term applies to them either…

all these misunderstandings!

##*** If*** “Protestants” in post 1 means Protestants who are:

• From the USA
• “Low Church” in worship; or theology; or in both

• the meaning of that post might be clearer. The misunderstandings are (imho) less of a bother, than the way they have of cropping up all the time.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

All protestants can cling to is their own version of the bible, a single fellowship( for most )
non liturgical services, and a promise of salvation, from their version of the bible, and faith in promises from their version. They don’t have a huge family of believers ( who believe all the same things )saints, Mary, The church fathers(incl. many women ) writings or even the original bible. I am not condemning anyone, that is not my place,. I am just sad for the people who willingly, or out of ignorance, deny themselves all these blessings.

God gives as he will.

Just be glad we have received so much. And for those that have never had so much as we be glad they at least do not know how much they lack. Maybe there is some good in that?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

SM, let me ask you something. Do you agree that Scripture holds the Church at Rome in the highest esteem? And do you agree that say, at least for the first five centuries or so of Christianity, the Roman Church continued to be held in the highest esteem by all of Christendom?

Heavens no. Just the opposite. It tends to look to Jerusalem, but in reality certainly doesn’t seem to suggest any center. Paul certainly didn’t see Rome as any head of anything since he wouldn’t have written a letter to “the romans” had there been a hierarchy of leadership there. I see nothing that holds the Roman Church vis a vis the Antioch church etc in greater esteem than any other. Certain persons within any of those churches might have been more respected for their wisdom at times, but nothing more.

Are there no “heretics” in your church?

I have no idea, but I sure don’t think we have been in the business of defining others as heretics. I could well be wrong, but at least I’ve heard of none.

And your point?

My point is that it seems quite clear that the early followers of Jesus remained substantially within Judaism, trying to reform it. They were finally thrown out as dissenters. You know about that of course. Rome seemed to have learned that the way to suppress dissent is to excommunicate.

Even if true, so what? Look, within the Church you’re going to find every conceivable opinion known to man. That’s just the way it is, and the way it always has been. But who cares? Such a cacophony is not the voice of the Church.

In the church universal? of course there are myriads of opinions. But of course that no where means that yours is the ultimate decider. Only Rome itself claims this for itself. It’s convenient, but they have had trouble historically of convincing others over to that point of view.

Now this is just crazy!! What are you talking about? Who’s being “ordered” and to do what???

Are you suggesting that you can remain in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church and NOT obey her teachings fully? Most here would say that you self excommunicate yourself. So you accept the order of the church to accept their teaching on pain of being excluded from the table. Many many hear also claim that even one’s own conscience cannot overcome the Church’s authority of teaching. While the Church demands no such thing, I submit that it will indeed punish anyone who goes seriously against her. That is an order in my book.

And I’m just curious: do you believe in the Devil?

Remain curious. That has nothing to do with this conversation whatsoever.

 

[Salonika]

raumzeitmc2:

Are there no “heretics” in your church.

In the sense of thinking for themsleves and of coming to their own understanding of their faith and continuing to grow in it - I hope that all churches are full of heretics.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

All protestants can cling to is their own version of the bible, a single fellowship( for most )
non liturgical services, and a promise of salvation, from their version of the bible, and faith in promises from their version. They don’t have a huge family of believers ( who believe all the same things )saints, Mary, The church fathers(incl. many women ) writings or even the original bible. I am not condemning anyone, that is not my place,. I am just sad for the people who willingly, or out of ignorance, deny themselves all these blessings.

Gabriel of 12;
True Catholicism has consisted of the Apostolic Biblical teachings of the Liturgy of the Word of God and the Liturgy of the Eucharist to this day in unchanged belief 2000 years and counting. This fundamental Apostolic Biblical and Traditional belief is what makes us one in Jesus Christ through his Word and in his Blood and Body both living and deceased in the Communion of the Saints.

This does not negate that protestants dont have a community. There reformed position since the 16th century is built upon the “Word” only, the Word of God gathers them and makes them community or a congregation making up their church. Whereby each church then as institution making themselves the community having theological significance. They may hold to Matthews Gospel 18:20 of two or more gathered in Jesus name has replaced this with the Word from Mattew 16:16-19 Where Jesus himself founded a Church and defined his Church.

Protestants do not Lack in Christian Moral belief’s. They also belief in Jesus through his Word only and many do not see a need for the Priesthood that Jesus established in his High Priesthood, or recognize all 7 sacraments Jesus instituted for these have the law of God attached to them of which Jesus freed us from. Without recognizing Jesus instituted these so that he can be present always with us not just in Word but living in his body, blood, soul and divinity, that is why Jesus had to go inorder to give us the Comforter (Paraclete). For the Holy Spirit is the one who reveals all these things Jesus said and taught, and continues to reveal his Truth and teach his Church in every age.

Protestants have the “logos” Word of God, there is hope not sadness for them. They just reject the Magesterium Jesus built upon his apostles and refuse to accept all God revealed to be present to them always not just in his Word but in his flesh and blood also through his Holy Spirit. This new Christian theology rejects Apostolic Tradition because it is not clearly written in the Word for them, because not everything Jesus said and did got written down. For they would of had to be there and live out this Catholic Apostolic Sacred Tradtion in order to believe. But “blessed are you who have not seen but believe”.

What is interesting is the “Spirit” here. For Protestants ascertain that they recieve the “Spirit” through the Word (bible) and this suffices and is possible. But what makes this interesting is how can they decipher what is of the Spirit and what is emotion and tend to lend to the enlightenment of the spirit as symbolically being the Holy Spirit himself? without the Sacraments, without the true Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ? This I believe is the core of Christian understanding and to know that Jesus never built an isolated Church, but a world wide, universal, Catholic church with a mission.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I can’t say that the “I sure feel sorry for you Protestants” thread is a very good one. We need to keep in mind that some of the greatest thinkers and most brilliant modern Catholic theologians are converts from Protestantism. Scott Hahn and company weren’t nurtured in Catholicism. They’ve brought a LOT to the table. Protestantism offers a great appreciation for Scripture and they are not a pathetic, lonely, detached group? Most Protestant churches I know have a far superior sense of fellowship than we Catholics. My former Anglican Church had wonderful fellowship opportunities. Protestants also are very prayerful people and many are quite devout. I remember the old Anglican liturgy that my wife and family attended and it was quite beautiful, worded in a much more lovely form of English than the Norvus Ordo we use in Catholicism today. Protestant churches often are also very pastoral. My former Anglican diocese was quite pastoral. They’d be at your house or the hospital in a New York minute for just about anything. God loves Protestants greatly and some posters are right that God is using Protestants to do great works in our world and bring souls to Jesus. Happy Easter to everyone!

 

[JonNC]

Gabriel of 12;
What is interesting is the “Spirit” here. For Protestants ascertain that they recieve the “Spirit” through the Word (bible) and this suffices and is possible. But what makes this interesting is how can they decipher what is of the Spirit and what is emotion and tend to lend to the enlightenment of the spirit as symbolically being the Holy Spirit himself? without the Sacraments, without the true Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ? This I believe is the core of Christian understanding and to know that Jesus never built an isolated Church, but a world wide, universal, Catholic church with a mission.

I liked you post, Gabriel. I might add that Lutherans, and I’m sure others, would say that the sacraments are just as important as the word. The importance we put on Baptism and the Eucharist should not be underestimated. (I say this with full knowledge of what the Catholic Church [currently] teaches about our Eucharist, which of course we respectfully disagree with.)

Jon

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I liked you post, Gabriel. I might add that Lutherans, and I’m sure others, would say that the sacraments are just as important as the word. The importance we put on Baptism and the Eucharist should not be underestimated. (I say this with full knowledge of what the Catholic Church [currently] teaches about our Eucharist, which of course we respectfully disagree with.)

Happy Pascua to you JonNC

Catholics are very enlightened from the Word of God (bible) also. Did you know the bible is read in its entirety in the Catholic liturgy of the Word in a 3 year cycle in the Mass? The point I was making is that Catholics not only are enllightened by the Word of God and we are fulfilled in the body of Jesus Christ through his sacraments escpecially the Eucharist. This is one reason Catholics cant hold to a “bible only” theology.

For Catholics dont limit God to ink on a page, to Catholics the Word of God made flesh still lives in his body the Catholic church and Jesus makes himself present to us in every Mass. If you find Jesus truly present in his sacraments, I find the “Sola” theology a contradiction, but as today it depends on the definition of the “Sola Scriptura” theology one takes?

For to me; I am not content with just the Word of God which enlightens my mind and spirit, I desire the quench of my thirst to consume Jesus body and blood in all of my body and soul, fulfilling all of my humanity with his true presence in the Eucharist, the Logos made flesh.

I would like to give you one of my personal scriptural meditations for today;

Philppians1:12
6 I want you to know, brothers, that my situation has turned out rather to advance the gospel,
13
so that my imprisonment has become well known in Christ throughout the whole praetorium 7 and to all the rest,
14
8 and so that the majority of the brothers, having taken encouragement in the Lord from my imprisonment, dare more than ever to proclaim the word fearlessly.
15
Of course, some preach Christ from envy and rivalry, others from good will.
16
The latter act out of love, aware that I am here for the defense of the gospel;
17
the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not from pure motives, thinking that they will cause me trouble in my imprisonment.
**18
What difference does it make, as long as in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being proclaimed? And in that I rejoice. 9 Indeed I shall continue to rejoice, **
19
10 for I know that this will result in deliverance for me 11 through your prayers and support from the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
20
My eager expectation and hope is that I shall not be put to shame in any way, but that with all boldness, now as always, Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death.

 

[maninahat]

I was surprised to see this sad for protestants post. I am an Anglican, here to find out more about Catholic Faith. On my book shelf i have the church father, and I believe i am part of a rich tradition. I am not sure how innocent the ‘sad for protestants’ comment was - as a new commer i found it a little off putting. I have grown up with some prejudices against Catholicism which i hoped this site would get rid of.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Thank you for your opinion.

But was this necessary? You can continue to argue why you do not believe on your other threads. Why hijack a perfectly innocent thread?

babbrrick if you look at post 9 you will see that Iamnotafraid has been banned,

 

[motstraumen]

I also came here to learn a bit more about Roman Catholicism. The points brought up by many of Protestants is well stated. The Reformation came about because of abuses in the Roman Church, multiple Bishop Sees bought by a single person, the preying on the fears of the faithful so that they would fund grandiose building projects and wars, and a few priests seeing the damage and speaking out and then being excommunicated because of faithful questions. How is this maintaining Apostolicity? The churches with direct lines back to this time (despite the misunderstanding of our theological stances of Sola Scriptura et al) still study the Church Fathers and Mothers, we look deeply at tradition, we hold to the sacraments (and sacramentals or rites) and the Word as essential for the faithful, we honor the Blessed Virgin Mary, we honor the saints and their vibrancy now. I went to the defense of the RCC in our town when a pentecostal wrote in the paper that they worshiped idols and Mary. He misunderstood mariology and the use of statues completely. The priest just laughed. I felt a neighborly need to speak out against such generalizations and divisive language fro a fellow “Protestant”. I have many productive learning conversations with our local sisters and priests. If we follow what our churches are recommending and enter into grass roots dialogue a lot of these threads will just go away. I have especially appreciated JonNC and Spiritmeadow for their thoughts. My the spirit of unity bring down the walls that divide us through Christ Jesus our Lord. God Bless.

 

[OnlyJesus]

No, you’re wrong. The Catholic Church IS the Mystical Body of Christ–if you have no part of the Church, you have no fellowship with Christ. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church; so Protestants and all non-Catholics are missing the one GREATEST thing–eternal life with God in heaven!

Here’s the thing:

You say:

There is no salvation outside the **Catholic Church **

Non catholics believe:
**
There is no salvation outside Jesus Christ.**

 

[BernadetteM]

traillius,
I don’t believe it was your intent to be condescending, but…

Lutherans, for example, believe in the communion of Saints, we honor the saints and the BVM, some traditionlist Catholics complain how Novus Ordo is quite similar to the Lutheran divine service. The Lutheran Confession is filled with references to the ECF’s.
We don’t feel denied, and at the same time, pray you are blessed by your communion.

Jon

Do you feel that all Lutherans honor the BVM and the saints? I am confused because my friend is Missouri Synod and my daughter’s father-in-law is a LCMS minister. Neither believe the Catholic understanding of the Communion of Saints. In fact my friend gets very upset if you mention the BVM. She also believes in closed commuion, but my daughter’s FIL believes in open communion. He and his wife tried to pressure my daughter into receiving the Eucharist and wanted her to become Lutheran, although my son-in-law has nothing to do with any church.

From what I gather they understand the creed with a small “c” for Catholic.

Do Lutherans widely disagree on doctrine. I was an Episcopalian and I know they do not agree on doctrine. Low church is very protestant in theology and Anglo Catholics (not so much high churchmen) at least the church I attended even prayed for the Pope and accepted all things Catholic.

It is interesting the different beliefs within some denominations. Although some Catholics do not follow the full teachings of the Church, the Church holds to one truth for all Catholics, there are no different doctrine in the Church. Individuals are not the Church

The father-in-law is open to dialog and is not judgemental, but my friend is. Of course this is true about Catholics also.

Whether I believe that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ I accept the fact that each person finds God in his/her own way and it is better that they accept Christ than not. I am so glad that I don’t have to judge whether someone is saved or not, only God has that right. He is a merciful God because He sent his only begotten Son to die for all men and His mercy is great. I love the Divine Mercy devotion, have you ever heard of it?

God Bless

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[guanophore]

Here’s the thing:

You say:

There is no salvation outside the **Catholic Church **

Non catholics believe:
**
There is no salvation outside Jesus Christ.**

Actually, the two statements are identical to us. Jesus founded His Church, and He consecrated her to Himself. There is no separation between Him and His Holy Bride. He identifies Himself completely with her,as His Own Body.

 

[JonNC]

=BernadetteM;5241577]Do you feel that all Lutherans honor the BVM and the saints? I am confused because my friend is Missouri Synod and my daughter’s father-in-law is a LCMS minister. Neither believe the Catholic understanding of the Communion of Saints. In fact my friend gets very upset if you mention the BVM

Hi Bernadette.
Lutherans ought to honor the Blessed Virgin and the saints as great examples and guides to Christian faith and living a godly life. Lutheran don’t practice intercessory prayer, however. Why does she become upset at the mention of the Mother of God?
I can’t imagine a Lutheran not understanding the communion of saints as the Church Militant and Church Triumphant, past, present and future, or rejecting the belief in said.

She also believes in closed commuion, but my daughter’s FIL believes in open communion. He and his wife tried to pressure my daughter into receiving the Eucharist and wanted her to become Lutheran, although my son-in-law has nothing to do with any church.

LCMS practices close communion, for the same reasons that the Catholic Church does. Other Lutheran bodies, however, practice a more open approach. I would object to anyone ever pressuring someone into receiving the Eucharist! That is a personal decision, and the Lutheran Confessions are quite clear on the matter. To pressure a Catholic to receive in a Lutheran parish is disrespectful to both communions, as well as to a loyal, faithful Catholic Christian. You can tell your daughter’s FIL I said so! Invite him on here and we can dialogue the issue. Much as I would love to see Lutherans and Catholics at the same altar, there’s a right and a wrong way to bring that about.

From what I gather they understand the creed with a small “c” for Catholic.

Correct.

Do Lutherans widely disagree on doctrine. I was an Episcopalian and I know they do not agree on doctrine. Low church is very protestant in theology and Anglo Catholics (not so much high churchmen) at least the church I attended even prayed for the Pope and accepted all things Catholic.

Perhaps not as broadly as Anglicans. Most of our disagreements within the Lutheran family are over polity, and adiaphora, things indifferent. But there are some important disagreements, women in the clergy for one.

Whether I believe that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ I accept the fact that each person finds God in his/her own way and it is better that they accept Christ than not. I am so glad that I don’t have to judge whether someone is saved or not, only God has that right. He is a merciful God because He sent his only begotten Son to die for all men and His mercy is great. I love the Divine Mercy devotion, have you ever heard of it?

I have enjoyed listening to the Divine Mercy Chaplet on EWTN radio. I enjoy the Rosary, as well. Of course, a Lutheran ordinarily will use only the first half of the Hail Mary, and some other minor modifications that reflect our belief regarding intercession.
We Lutherans could learn some valuable lessons from Catholics about meditative prayer.
I appreciate your kind post, and questions.

BLessings,
Jon

 

[BernadetteM]

Hi Bernadette.
Lutherans ought to honor the Blessed Virgin and the saints as great examples and guides to Christian faith and living a godly life. Lutheran don’t practice intercessory prayer, however. Why does she become upset at the mention of the Mother of God?
I can’t imagine a Lutheran not understanding the communion of saints as the Church Militant and Church Triumphant, past, present and future, or rejecting the belief in said.

To be honest I have no idea. Her brother converted to the Catholic Church and she blames his conversion on him being an alcoholic. I think there is a little anti-catholic feelings in her. She really has no clue what the Lutheran church really teaches. She was brought up Lutheran and went to Lutheran schools. I think she is very misinformed about what the Catholic Church believes.

LCMS practices close communion, for the same reasons that the Catholic Church does. Other Lutheran bodies, however, practice a more open approach. I would object to anyone ever pressuring someone into receiving the Eucharist! That is a personal decision, and the Lutheran Confessions are quite clear on the matter. To pressure a Catholic to receive in a Lutheran parish is disrespectful to both communions, as well as to a loyal, faithful Catholic Christian. You can tell your daughter’s FIL I said so! Invite him on here and we can dialogue the issue. Much as I would love to see Lutherans and Catholics at the same altar, there’s a right and a wrong way to bring that about.

Her FIL is getting up there in age and doesn’t really bother with that anymore. His wife on the other hand who is pretty ignorant about beliefs of any faith has been very unkind to my daughter, the husband is a pretty good guy. They also realize how strong my daughter’s faith is. All her children attend Catholic schools. In fact he was allowed to take part in their baptism.

Correct.

Perhaps not as broadly as Anglicans. Most of our disagreements within the Lutheran family are over polity, and adiaphora, things indifferent. But there are some important disagreements, women in the clergy for one.

I have enjoyed listening to the Divine Mercy Chaplet on EWTN radio. I enjoy the Rosary, as well. Of course, a Lutheran ordinarily will use only the first half of the Hail Mary, and some other minor modifications that reflect our belief regarding intercession.
We Lutherans could learn some valuable lessons from Catholics about meditative prayer.
I appreciate your kind post, and questions.

You are type of person that has an open mind and heart and can discuss our differences in a Christian manner. I try to do that, but sometimes I call a spade a spade when I feel someone is being dishonest on the forums.

Thank you also for your kindness.

Bernadette

BLessings,
Jon

 

[TAB39]

All protestants can cling to is their own version of the bible, a single fellowship( for most )
non liturgical services, and a promise of salvation, from their version of the bible, and faith in promises from their version. They don’t have a huge family of believers ( who believe all the same things )saints, Mary, The church fathers(incl. many women ) writings or even the original bible. I am not condemning anyone, that is not my place,. I am just sad for the people who willingly, or out of ignorance, deny themselves all these blessings.

All Protestants are missing liturgical worship, the original Bible and the Communion of Saints? You are mistaken my friend. I’m afraid when you say Protestant, you are really speaking of a body of Christians way larger than you could ever stereotype like this. Anglicans are Protestants who do have the 7 books that SOME other Protestants do not have. They have churches that are some of the most beautiful liturgical places of worship that I have ever seen equipped with all of the Catholic stuff such as beautiful chalices, crucifixes, incensers, vestments and much much more. They also have a very well versed belief in the communion of saints. Don’t make those judgments on all Protestants especially when you aren’t well aware of some of their practices and doctrines.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Anglicans are Protestants who do have the 7 books that SOME other Protestants do not have. They have churches that are some of the most beautiful liturgical places of worship that I have ever seen equipped with all of the Catholic stuff such as beautiful chalices, crucifixes, incensers, vestments and much much more. They also have a very well versed belief in the communion of saints. Don’t make those judgments on all Protestants especially when you aren’t well aware of some of their practices and doctrines.

Is it any coincidence then that some (most?) Anglicans consider themselves Catholic and not Protestant?

God bless