Sad & Frustrated after Mass...again

[YoungTradCath]

Technically the bishops’ conferences change it and the Vatican approves. The Vatican wanted stricter adherence to the Latin and English was regarded as the most out of step. Other vernaculars are expected to follow with modifications.

Well, with the English, technically, the USCCB was [read: “strongly recommended”] to allow Vox Clara to dictate to ICEL, which happened. The new English translation was magnificently full of politics. It’s very interesting to go digging around the dirt of the interwebz to read about it.

 

[ProVobis]

Well, with the English, technically, the USCCB was [read: “strongly recommended”] to allow Vox Clara to dictate to ICEL, which happened. The new English translation was magnificently full of politics. It’s very interesting to go digging around the dirt of the interwebz to read about it.

Ah, yes. Now we’ll have to wait for its repeal.

Maybe by Vox Clarior?

 

[GoldenLight]

Here is the new translation of the Creed:

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, **consubstantial with the Father; **through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Thanks Zekariya for finding it for me

OK ~ I did a Thesaurus search of the meaning of …consubstantial which means *‘At one with the Father’ *… So why not stick with the every day language that we simple folk understand rather than change it… It means the same… Really!!! this is a unnecessary change…a ridiculous change … A change for change sake!!

 

[ProVobis]

So why not stick with the every day language that we simple folk understand rather than change it…

Then there is a philosophy that worship to God shouldn’t be in every day language, whether or not we understand what the priest says. Many don’t agree with that philosophy obviously, but I’m not one of them.

 

[Marie5890]

Thanks Zekariya for finding it for me

Really!!! this is a unnecessary change…a ridiculous change … A change for change sake!!

How can you be so sure that the intent was “a change for change sake”?

Merriam-Webster

con·sub·stan·tial adj \ˌkän(t)-səb-ˈstan(t)-shəl\

Definition of CONSUBSTANTIAL

: of the same substance:

(and from dictionary.com)

con·sub·stan·tial   [kon-suhb-stan-shuhl] Show IPA
adjective
of one and the same substance, essence, or nature.

Those both have a very different meaning than “one in being with the Father”

Be fair —“consubstantial” is far more closer to the theology of the Trinity that “one in being with the Father” given the above definitions.

Constubstantial is far more theology accurate.

 

[TheMc]

Thanks Zekariya for finding it for me

OK ~ I did a Thesaurus search of the meaning of …consubstantial which means *‘At one with the Father’ *… So why not stick with the every day language that we simple folk understand rather than change it… It means the same… Really!!! this is a unnecessary change…a ridiculous change … A change for change sake!!

It seems to me it’s more of a change for worship sake.

 

[Marie5890]

It seems to me it’s more of a change for worship sake.

Well said…

 

[Zekariya]

How can you be so sure that the intent was “a change for change sake”?

Merriam-Webster

con·sub·stan·tial adj \ˌkän(t)-səb-ˈstan(t)-shəl\

Definition of CONSUBSTANTIAL

: of the same substance:

(and from dictionary.com)

con·sub·stan·tial   [kon-suhb-stan-shuhl] Show IPA
adjective
of one and the same substance, essence, or nature.

Those both have a very different meaning than “one in being with the Father”

Be fair —“consubstantial” is far more closer to the theology of the Trinity that “one in being with the Father” given the above definitions.

Constubstantial is far more theology accurate.

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, you’ll find in their Creed: of one essence with the Father.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Ah, yes. Now we’ll have to wait for its repeal.

Maybe by Vox Clarior?

That would be a horror beyond all telling.

 

[YoungTradCath]

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, you’ll find in their Creed: of one essence with the Father.

Eastern Catholicism does its own thing. Latin Catholics aren’t Eastern Catholics, we’re Latin Catholics.

 

[Zekariya]

Eastern Catholicism does its own thing. Latin Catholics aren’t Eastern Catholics, we’re Latin Catholics.

Marie5890 said,
"of one and the same substance, essence, or nature.

Those both have a very different meaning than “one in being with the Father” "

I was just pointing out that essence was used in some translations of the Creed.

 

[ProVobis]

…Those both have a very different meaning than “one in being with the Father”

Be fair —“consubstantial” is far more closer to the theology of the Trinity that “one in being with the Father” given the above definitions.

Constubstantial is far more theology accurate.

As long as we’re going that route, you left out an important component, in my opinion, and probably an oversight on the part of the committee.

In consubstantialem Patri, Patri is in the dative case and probably better literally translated as “TO the Father” and not “WITH the Father.”

The “with” preposition is already imbedded in the “con” part of the English cognate “consubstantial.”

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Well, with the English, technically, the USCCB was [read: “strongly recommended”] to allow Vox Clara to dictate to ICEL, which happened. The new English translation was magnificently full of politics. It’s very interesting to go digging around the dirt of the interwebz to read about it.

While everything in the Church is subject to “Church politics” I wouldn’t place too much credence into internet rumors. While the likes of John Allen and Rocco Palmo are fairly credible sources, there aren’t many out there.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

these are the same questions people who had the mass that you knew shoved down their throats in 1969.

I don’t post here much but I do read some. I didn’t know where else to turn and I hope someone here can help me to understand WHY the Mass has changed?

All the beautiful phrases I loved are gone: “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you…” Why is “come under my roof” better?

Even the music has changed. What good does it do to change the music to “Lord, God, Lamb of God” so that now it sounds so discordant.

I spend all my time reading along to try and get the words right instead of enjoying the beauty of the Mass and what it means to me. I feel sad and frustrated at the end of every Mass even though its been two months that I have been trying to adjust. This must have been how it felt after Vatican II.

Even when I come here, everybody says they “just love” the new translation. The few people I have talked to in real life do NOT love it but don’t seem to feel as sad about it as I do. I have tried confessing my dislike but the Priest just kind of glossed over that part of the confession.

What can I do??? I want to do what the Church wants me to but I am having so much trouble adjusting. I just want the beautiful feeling of being with God that the Mass used to inspire in me before this change.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Miaow, the funny thing is that in your post you said, “this must be what it was like after Vatican II”. . .

there are some similarities but many differences as well between the two . . .but most people managed to ‘come to terms’ with the changes. (in fact there was a vernacular Mass very similar to this ‘new’ translation which was the FIRST vernacular translation in place between 1967-1970, and then the ‘old’ translation of the last 40 years ‘replaced’ that first translation even.)

As you note, some people found great beauty in the translation. Some didn’t, and find as great or greater beauty in the current one.

Now it appears that you ‘only’ know the ‘old’ translation and never experienced either the first vernacular translation or the original Latin of the Mass. . .but, again, there are millions of us who have experienced ‘more than one’ change and have, in time, learned to appreciate or at least ‘live with’ changes.

And you have the advantage of having relatively ‘little’ change (not going from one language to a completely different one).

Perhaps it would help to shift your focus less on mourning what you perceive as a ‘loss’ and instead trying to look for things which are ‘gained’. We are still in a process of change and your ‘musical settings’ are not written in stone. Few churches that I know only use one ‘Mass setting’ all year long without exception. Devotional prayers like the rosary haven’t changed; maybe try going to Adoration and praying those so that you get back a ‘comfortable feeling’ being in Church and once you start to have those feelings, plus more ‘time’ to get used to the new translation, you may find yourself settling into a new rhythm which with time you will come to love and cherish as well, and may God bless you.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I attended a Maronite liturgy last Friday night. It was mostly in Syriac and Arabic with beautiful chant. Interesting, though, the only English remaining was the “And also with you” response and the “one in being with the Father” Creed.

I also hear that many of the Protestant liturgies still use the old ICEL translations, which is ironic in some respects.

Hi ProVobis.

I don’t want to derail things here, but I thought I should respond. That’s amazing about the Maronite liturgy you attended. I’ve wanted to attend one lately, but at Malphono’s “warning” I’ve refrained, primarily because it pretty much sounds like I might as well attend a Roman Mass, unless like you I can find one celebrate in Syriac and Arabic.

It wouldn’t surprise me of certain Protestant communities still use the ICEL translation. I wonder how long they will continue using it though. I’m willing to bet it’s just a matter of time before they too make the switch.

 

[Phemie]

I’m not sad or frustrated by the new translation, although it seems that most people in my parish are not paying too much attention to it, but having heard it yesterday for the first time I’m less than impressed by the setting our choir has chosen to use. The Canadian settings are less than edifying and they seem to have picked the worst of the three. Of course they never even looked at the chant setting and I know that because the choir director told me.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Eastern Catholicism does its own thing. Latin Catholics aren’t Eastern Catholics, we’re Latin Catholics.

Very true. But in order to gain a deeper understanding of the theology of the Universal Church, the West must look East as well as to its own traditions, and the East must look West.

As far as the Creed is concerned, I prefer the Eastern Catholic/Orthodox translation, “one in essence,” for a couple of reasons. First, their version of the Creed was translated from the original GREEK (yep, not Latin). The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Cree was written in Greek, after all. So the current English translation of the Creed as used in the Roman Church is actually a translation of a translation. Secondly, “consubstantial” can be translated in an overly materialist way. “Substance,” after all, can refer to a wide variety of things, whereas “essence” really seems to penetrate to the heart of the matter. Incidentally, the word used in the original Greek is also a somewhat ambiguous word like “consubstantial,” but the Council Fathers and Church Tradition have always intended the meaning “one in essence” to be given to the word “homoousious.”

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I actually had very high hopes for this new translations. My hopes partially centered around the hope that a new translation would force a rewriting of the music, and that the new music would be of a higher quality (like the new translation). But the past two Sundays those hopes have been dashed. I guess better music wasn’t on the agenda. Would that someone who was knowledgeable in Gregorian Chant would translate that books produced by the monks of Solesmes in such a way that the translation would not only be accurate, but easily “chantable” in the Gregorian style. This has been/is being done for the Churches of the Greek Byzantine tradition, why not for the Latin tradition as well?

 

[Tighty_Whitey]

I share many of the sentiments that were expressed by the OP. I’d have lost my mind if I was around at the time of the Vatican II changes. That must have been a huge change.

Still trying to figure out, “consubstantial” and the whole, “through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault”. Time I know will make the difference.