Sad News from Spain

[SanJudas]

God bless all here.

It appears Spain will have to suffer four more years of one of the most liberal, anti-Catholic governments in Europe:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7285885.stm

In the last four years Spain became the third country in Europe to have gay marriage; divorce laws were liberalized, and mass indoctrination of schoolchildren into acceptance of abortion, homosexuality, and radical feminism was made mandatory in public schools. An atheist ambassador was appointed to the Vatican (I’m not making this up) and a bill was introduced by the Spanish Socialist Party to remove all funding for social services provided by the Church. Terrorists responsible for the bloody May 11, 2004 attacks in Madrid which killed almost 200 people were given light sentences.

Please pray for Spain.

 

[idrum677]

Pray for Spain…and for the United States.

We may be heading in the same direction.

 

[Kaninchen]

mass indoctrination of schoolchildren into acceptance of abortion, homosexuality, and radical feminism . . .

Could you describe the ‘mass indoctrination’ sessions for us - quite how it all works, is it a bit like the Chinese Red Guards during the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution - with schoolchildren marching through the streets waving little rainbow books?

Could you list the precise tenets of radical feminism that are to be espoused by Spanish children?

Could somebody explain why this wasn’t posted to one of the ‘In The News’ boards?

 

[pete_29]

 

[stmaria]

God bless all here.

It appears Spain will have to suffer four more years of one of the most liberal, anti-Catholic governments in Europe:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7285885.stm

In the last four years Spain became the third country in Europe to have gay marriage; divorce laws were liberalized, and mass indoctrination of schoolchildren into acceptance of abortion, homosexuality, and radical feminism was made mandatory in public schools. An atheist ambassador was appointed to the Vatican (I’m not making this up) and a bill was introduced by the Spanish Socialist Party to remove all funding for social services provided by the Church. Terrorists responsible for the bloody May 11, 2004 attacks in Madrid which killed almost 200 people were given light sentences.

Please pray for Spain.

Should we be suprised? Prior to Vatican II Spain was a Catholic State. All of her laws were based on the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Pope Leo taught that when the State is separated from the Church, the State becomes godless.
*LIBERTAS *ON THE NATURE OF HUMAN LIBERTY
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII JUNE 20, 1888

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13liber.htm
… these followers of liberalism deny the existence of any divine authority to which obedience is due, and proclaim that every man is the law to himself; from which arises that ethical system which they style independent morality, and which, under the guise of liberty, exonerates man from any obedience to the commands of God,
18. There are others, somewhat more moderate though not more consistent, who affirm that the morality of individuals is to be guided by the divine law, but not the morality of the State, for that in public affairs the commands of God may be passed over, and may be entirely disregarded in the framing of laws. Hence follows the fatal theory of the need of separation between Church and State. But the absurdity of such a position is manifest
21. This kind of liberty, if considered in relation to the State, clearly implies that there is no reason why the State should offer any homage to God, or should desire any public recognition of Him; that no one form of worship is to be preferred to another, but that all stand on an equal footing, no account being taken of the religion of the people, even if they profess the Catholic faith… Wherefore, civil society must acknowledge God as its Founder and Parent, and must obey and reverence His power and authority… … **justice therefore forbids, and reason itself forbids, the State to be godless; or to adopt a line of action which would end in godlessness **-- namely, to treat the various religions (as they call them) alike, and to bestow upon them promiscuously equal rights and privileges. Since, then, the profession of one religion is necessary in the State, that religion must be professed which alone is true, and which can be recognized without difficulty, especially in Catholic States, because the marks of truth are, as it were, engraven upon it

1. But this teaching is understood in two ways. Many wish the State to be separated from the Church wholly and entirely, so that with regard to every right of human society, in institutions, customs, and laws, the offices of State, and the education of youth, they would pay no more regard to the Church than if she did not exist; and, at most, would allow the citizens individually to attend to their religion in private if so minded. Against such as these, all the arguments by which We disprove the principle of separation of Church and State are conclusive; with this super-added, that it is absurd the citizen should respect the Church, while the State may hold her in contempt"

 

[Kaninchen]

Should we be suprised? Prior to Vatican II Spain was a Catholic State. All of her laws were based on the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Pope Leo taught that when the State is separated from the Church, the State becomes godless.
*LIBERTAS *ON THE NATURE OF HUMAN LIBERTY
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII JUNE 20, 1888

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13liber.htm
… these followers of liberalism deny the existence of any divine authority to which obedience is due, and proclaim that every man is the law to himself; from which arises that ethical system which they style independent morality, and which, under the guise of liberty, exonerates man from any obedience to the commands of God,

Wasn’t anything to do with Vatican whatevers, was it? Spain was a ‘Catholic State’ because it was ruled by a violent authoritarian dictatorship backed by the Catholic Church! As soon as that fell with Franco’s death, the whole thing started unraveling. If it’s a lesson in anything it’s that you can thuggarize people into behaving the way you want them to, you just can’t thuggarize them into believing how you want them to.

Perhaps you just end up with them hating you rather looking at you with the kind of benign indifference that characterizes so much of the rest of ‘Catholic’ Europe’s attitude to the Church?

 

[stmaria]

Wasn’t anything to do with Vatican whatevers, was it? Spain was a ‘Catholic State’ because it was ruled by a violent authoritarian dictatorship backed by the Catholic Church! As soon as that fell with Franco’s death, the whole thing started unraveling. If it’s a lesson in anything it’s that you can thuggarize people into behaving the way you want them to, you just can’t thuggarize them into believing how you want them to.
Perhaps you just end up with them hating you rather looking at you with the kind of benign indifference that characterizes so much of the rest of ‘Catholic’ Europe’s attitude to the Church?

The teaching of the Catholic Church has never changed on this issue. No one can be forced to believe in the Catholic faith. It was not the Church that “thuggarized” citizens.
Spain has become godless just like every other nation on earth. A true Christian nation could never pass laws legalizing pornograghy, gay marriage, and abortion.
A great chastisement of all nations will soon be upon us for rejecting Christ in the laws that govern us.

 

[Kaninchen]

The teaching of the Catholic Church has never changed on this issue. No one can be forced to believe in the Catholic faith. It was not the Church that “thuggarized” citizens.
Spain has become godless just like every other nation on earth. A true Christian nation could never pass laws legalizing pornograghy, gay marriage, and abortion.
A great chastisement of all nations will soon be upon us for rejecting Christ in the laws that govern us.

All terribly, terribly interesting, I’m sure, but not really an answer to my observation that the ‘Catholic State’ of Spain (you’d raised as a topic) was a feature of authoritarian dictatorship and the fact that it isn’t any longer hasn’t much to do with Vatican whatever but, rather, with the fall of the autocracy.

 

[bookish]

I know. It seems my beloved Spain is getting even worse than America now. I am going there for holy week, I hope the people have more faith than the government. Damn the PSOE and their nonsense.

 

[stmaria]

All terribly, terribly interesting, I’m sure, but not really an answer to my observation that the ‘Catholic State’ of Spain (you’d raised as a topic) was a feature of authoritarian dictatorship and the fact that it isn’t any longer **hasn’t much to do with Vatican whatever **but, rather, with the fall of the autocracy.

The Vatcian II Council’s* Declaration on Religious Liberty *
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651207_dignitatis-humanae_en.html
states the following, “This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.”

Because of this declaration Spain changed the Concordat with the Church to read, “The fundamental law of 17 May 1958, in virtue of which Spanish legislation must take its inspiration from the doctrine of the Catholic Church, forms the basis of the present law. Now, as is known, the Second Vatican Council approved the Declaration on Religious Freedom on 7 December 1965, stating in Article 2: ‘The right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person, as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God, and by reason itself. This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed. Thus, it is to become a civil right.’

After this declaration of the Council Article 6 of the Spaniards’ Charter was modified to read, ‘The profession and practice of the Catholic religion, which is that of the Spanish State, enjoys official protection. The State guarantees the protection of religious liberty, which shall be guaranteed by an effective juridical provision which will safeguard morals and public order.’”

This opened the door for all religions to propagate and led to the new 1978 Constitution.

wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_historical_reason_of_the_Spanish_religion

“The proclamation of the Second Vatican Council in favor of the separation of church and state in 1965 forced the reassessment of this special relationship…. It took the new 1978 Constitution to confirm the right of Spaniards to religious freedom** and to begin the process of disestablishing Catholicism as the state religion**.”

Is it possible that liberalism ,which is rampant in Europe, would have forced the Constituion to be changed? We will never know. But the Vatican II declaration opened the door.

So Spain has become godless. The path to hell is paved with liberalism.

QUAS PRIMAS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI
ON THE FEAST OF CHRIST THE KING
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_11121925_quas-primas_en.html

"as long as individuals and states refused to submit to the rule of our Savior, there would be no really hopeful prospect of a lasting peace among nations. Men must look for the peace of Christ in the Kingdom of Christ;… Here it is foretold that his kingdom will have no limits, and will be enriched with justice and peace: “in his days shall justice spring up, and abundance of peace…And he shall rule from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.”

1. It would be a grave error, on the other hand, to say that Christ has no authority whatever in civil affairs, since, by virtue of the absolute empire over all creatures committed to him by the Father, all things are in his power
2. Thus the empire of our Redeemer embraces all men. To use the words of Our immortal predecessor, Pope Leo XIII: "His empire includes not only Catholic nations, not only baptized persons who, though of right belonging to the Church, have been led astray by error, or have been cut off from her by schism, but also all those who are outside the Christian faith; so that truly the whole of mankind is subject to the power of Jesus Christ."Nor is there any difference in this matter between the individual and the family or the State; for all men, whether collectively or individually, are under the dominion of Christ. In him is the salvation of the individual, in him is the salvation of society. “Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given to men whereby we must be saved.” He is the author of happiness and true prosperity for every man and for every nation. “For a nation is happy when its citizens are happy. What else is a nation but a number of men living in concord?” If, therefore, the rulers of nations wish to preserve their authority, to promote and increase the prosperity of their countries, they will not neglect the public duty of reverence and obedience to the rule of Christ. What We said at the beginning of Our Pontificate concerning the decline of public authority, and the lack of respect for the same, is equally true at the present day. “With God and Jesus Christ,” we said, "excluded from political life, with authority derived not from God but from man, the very basis of that authority has been taken away, because the chief reason of the distinction between ruler and subject has been eliminated. The result is that human society is tottering to its fall, because it has no longer a secure and solid foundation
3. When once men recognize, both in private and in public life, that Christ is King, society will at last receive the great blessings of real liberty, well-ordered discipline, peace and harmony…The result will be a stable peace and tranquillity, for there will be no longer any cause of discontent.
   20.0…Men will sheathe their swords and lay down their arms when all freely acknowledge and obey the authority of Christ, and every tongue confesses that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father"

 

[Kaninchen]

This opened the door for all religions to propagate and led to the new 1978 Constitution.

Err, no, the fall of the authoritarian regime after the death of Franco led to the new Constitution. Unless you’re saying that the Vatican Council brought about the death of Franco (rather than old age)?

Is it possible that liberalism ,which is rampant in Europe, would have forced the Constituion to be changed?

For heaven’s sake, it was the fall of the authoritarian regime after the death of the dictator that meant a new constitution!

Speaking as a liberal, European Jewess, by the way, I can’t say that I’m dismayed by the rampant liberalism of Europe.

We will never know.

We know very, very well!

 

[ora_pro_nobis]

I know there are people who revere Franco as some sort of saint, but I am old enough to remember Spain under his rule. I remember the huge sigh of relief after his death - Spanish friends of ours felt they could finally go back to their country.
If Franco had been a protestant, believe me, he would have forced the whole country to be protestant with him!

 

[Freshman88]

Speaking as a liberal, European Jewess, by the way, I can’t say that I’m dismayed by the rampant liberalism of Europe.

well then, I know not to waste my time in this thread.

Pray for Spain and Europe and especially all societies plagued by false notions of secularism and liberalism.

Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum, benedicta tu in muleribus et benedictus fructus ventris tua Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus nunc, et in hora mortis nostra. Amen.

 

[SanJudas]

Ms. Kaninchen,
I apologize for not responding sooner to your queries.

I did not post this news on a news site because I wanted to see the reaction of traditional catholics. I was already well aware of the reaction of the pro-gay, pro-abortion crowd.

I do not feel the need to list all the details of Zapatero’s “Education for Citizenship” program because this is a forum fior presenting personal opinions, not policy papers or doctoral theses. If you read Spanish, I would be happy to provide you with links to some sites that could explain the “mass indoctrination” to which I referred.

Please notice that nowhere in my post did I refer to General Franco or his policies, or to those of Felipe Gonzales, socialist president during the '80’s. The negative policies I referred to are solely those of Mr. Zapatero’s government and have all been implemented, “shock therapy” style, within the last four years.

Anyway, as a Jew, I’m sure you realize that Sr. Franco did not cave in to Hitler’s demands to turn over Spain’s Jewish citizens, and in fact Spain became a refuge for Jews escaping Nazi-controlled territory. Franco’s policy in this regard was not only a reflection of his own personal friendship towards the Jewish community, and was possibly related to the fact that he himself was rumored to have some Jewish ancestry, but also to his adherence to Bl. Pope Pius XII’s policy of protecting Rome’s Jews, even during the Nazi occupation of that city. In other words, his Catholic beliefs were instrumental in his protection of his country’s Jews.

Would Zapatero’s populist government do the same to protect a religious group if he came under the same pressure?

 

[Kaninchen]

I apologize for not responding sooner to your queries.

Estimado Sr. SanJudas

There is absolutely no need to apologize for delays, people have lives to live.

I do not feel the need to list all the details of Zapatero’s “Education for Citizenship” program because this is a forum fior presenting personal opinions, not policy papers or doctoral theses.

And what’s a little rhetorical flourish/exaggeration for effect between friends, after all. You weren’t to expect a contrary Jewess, who enjoys poking fun at the language people use, turning up.

If you read Spanish, I would be happy to provide you with links to some sites that could explain the “mass indoctrination” to which I referred.

You’d be amazed what can be achieved in reading/listening to Spanish with good Italian and a dictionary. I’d probably struggle with the nuances of political propaganda, I’ll admit.

Please notice that nowhere in my post did I refer to General Franco or his policies, or to those of Felipe Gonzales, socialist president during the '80’s. The negative policies I referred to are solely those of Mr. Zapatero’s government and have all been implemented, “shock therapy” style, within the last four years.

The thing is, you see, that Spain isn’t a closed society, it’s a member of the EU and so, given the language you use, I’d be expecting to see floods of Spanish refugees streaming out to somewhere more religiously conservative, like Poland. Oddly, they’re not, it’s rather the other way around.

Anyway, as a Jew, I’m sure you realize that Sr. Franco did not cave in to Hitler’s demands to turn over Spain’s Jewish citizens . . .

What a wonderful gift to the small world of political monsters came with the arrival on the scene of people like Stalin and Hitler. From then on, however bad the particular political monster (eg Mussolini, Franco, a long list of South American generals), their supporters could point out that “X wasn’t as bad as Stalin/Hitler,” whenever people complained about them.

I was careful in talking about Franco so that anybody reading what I’d said could derive no more than that I regarded him as an authoritarian thug – which he was. The fact that he wasn’t a complete sociopath doesn’t mean that he wasn’t an authoritarian thug.

 

[Kaninchen]

well then, I know not to waste my time in this thread.

The presence of one liberal amongst a host of conservatives is enough to drive you away from a thread?

I wonder if that’s what they mean here when they talk about ‘scrupulousity’?

 

[Freshman88]

The presence of one liberal amongst a host of conservatives is enough to drive you away from a thread?

I wonder if that’s what they mean here when they talk about ‘scrupulousity’?

Scrupulosity suggests a fear of doing wrong, I don’t fear doing wrong, I fear a waste of my time.

 

[mschrank]

I hope the Holy Father calls us to action soon enough.

 

[SanJudas]

Just in today–yet more evidence of the assault on basic decency underway in a nation whose soldiers have spilled blood on innumerable occasions in defense of our Holy Church:

catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=12027

Really, how can anyone defend such an obviously Nazi-like approach to social engineering? This has nothing to do with right or left. This is an issue of basic morality.

Here is a link (in Spanish, however), outlining the differences between the views of the current government’s educational program and traditional Catholic teaching:

profesionalesetica.com/descargas/downloads/downl_206_1.pdf

I do not have time or space for a full translation, but the upshot is that the Zapatero government is promoting abortion, euthanasia, moral relativity, cloning, and embryonic cell research. It claims that the family is an “institution in a state of constant transformation” and that all forms other than the mother/father/children should be given equal recognition. Homosexuality is a matter of personal choice and should be give “public recognition.”

According to the article I linked to above, support for euthanasia now includes support for its close cousin, eugenics. Dr. Mengele would be proud.