"Sad" protestant magazine article

[R_C]

Today google directed me to a website called “Christianity today”, that I later found to be “a media ministry for the evangelical church”, and something in an article caught my attention…excerpt below:

I knew this wasn’t true. I knew I was a Christian. And I knew God saw me as perfect and loveable as he saw his very own Son. I knew all this. Grace. Love. Forgiveness.

But I didn’t feel it. And I grew more and more depressed and frustrated with myself. I’d promise myself over and over that I wouldn’t mess up again, only to repeat my mistakes.

…] I knew I was headed down the same path. So I got help. One day, I was hanging out with a close friend who was a strong believer. Out of nowhere, I told him everything. My voice shaking, I confessed that …] I asked him for help. We prayed together.

…] This man had no great wisdom we lacked, no secret to fighting the drawing power …] But what he did was listen, give us wise advice and pray. He became a caring mentor to all of us.

…] I spend time in silence asking God to speak to me. I pray, worship, serve other people. …] And I pray: "God, help me do what’s right today. …] Make us love you more than ourselves and surround us with people who remind us that you love us even when we mess up. Surround us with friends and a church that feed the holy side of us

Immediately a few things shine brightly to the Catholic eye: before the harsh reality of spiritual warfare, all wishful thinking breaks down.

Notice how this protestant brother experiences a clash between what he believes in good faith and what his spirit experiences: on one side, the “delusion” of “imputed righteousness”: “I am a Christian, so God sees me as perfect as Christ, even though I am a sinner”. On the other hand, the voice of the Spirit saying: “it is not so.” He does not question grace, love, or forgiveness… rather, he doesn’t feel it. He doesn’t feel in a state of grace. He doesn’t feel forgiven.

He obviously has no other choice than to turn on to himself, to trust in himself. He is forced to carry the full burden. His frustration increases.

However, we cannot doubt, not even for a second, that he was truly trying to serve Christ rather than sin: for the Spirit is clearly seen at work in his words. We see the Spirit moving him not to accepting his current state (as his friend whom he mentions in the article gave up on the fight for chastity) but rather, to seek something more than trusting in self, something more than reading the Bible…to seek the company of another Christian with more experience.

He goes to him because he needs help. He feels the help will come from another fellow Christian who is “a strong believer”. And the Spirit moves him to do the most helpful of all things: to confess his sins.

Immediately there is a sense of relief from the very motion of confessing publicly his hidden sins. He benefits from a devout friend who is ready to listen, give wise advice, and pray.

We further see the Spirit at work in him as he describes in a few lines how his life changed: prayer and reading Scripture, yes, but also…serving other people, doing what is right…And his prayer: his soul longs for fellow people who remind one another that God loves us even when we sin…for a church that feeds the holy side…

Why, if he is already saved and his sinfulness is cloaked under the imputed righteousness of Christ, does his soul feel that there is a holy side that needs to be alimented? Why does his soul feel that this holy side can grow solely through a church that offers fruits of holiness and members who remind one another of God’s love in time of temptation and sin?

There is something quite profound that this honest writer reveals…something that strikes at the heart of the very idea of protestantism and that reminds us all of the Church of Christ, the city on the hill that cannot be hidden, and of the Church Fathers and their forgotten teachings…how difficult is the path for someone who believes that in God’s eyes he is already perfect! He will no longer see the Good Shepherd going out looking for him, he will no longer see the merciful father ready to forgive and embrace and celebrate his return, he will no longer feel st. Paul’s motivation to “work out our salvation”, “discipline our body”, “run as to win the race”… and how difficult is the path when the majestic apostolic power of Confession and Reconciliation, that awe-inspiring Sacrament called by our Eastern brethren “Holy Mystery of Reconciliation”, is hidden from their sight…

God, of course, is not tied to His Sacraments…we trust in His Divine Providence that will find ways to help our brother and all those who are not in full communion with the Church and thus do not have access to the life-giving spring of the Seven Sacraments that Our Lord has given us as a caring Bridegroom offers nuptial gifts to a most beloved spouse…however, one cannot help but realize two things:

• in the reality of his words and of his struggle, we can appreciate the worth of that doctrine which has been preserved unadulterated within the Catholic Church
• and we are also moved to a greater appreciation of that which is sometimes taken for granted (I speak here for myself, of course, but given my lack of uniqueness I am certain that others will feel the same way)

Thanks for bearing with me and I hope some of this is a bit edifying for you as it was for me.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Today google directed me to a website called “Christianity today”, that I later found to be “a media ministry for the evangelical church”, and something in an article caught my attention…excerpt below:

Immediately a few things shine brightly to the Catholic eye: before the harsh reality of spiritual warfare, all wishful thinking breaks down.

Notice how this protestant brother experiences a clash between what he believes in good faith and what his spirit experiences: on one side, the “delusion” of “imputed righteousness”: “I am a Christian, so God sees me as perfect as Christ, even though I am a sinner”. On the other hand, the voice of the Spirit saying: “it is not so.” He does not question grace, love, or forgiveness… rather, he doesn’t feel it. He doesn’t feel in a state of grace. He doesn’t feel forgiven.

He obviously has no other choice than to turn on to himself, to trust in himself. He is forced to carry the full burden. His frustration increases.

However, we cannot doubt, not even for a second, that he was truly trying to serve Christ rather than sin: for the Spirit is clearly seen at work in his words. We see the Spirit moving him not to accepting his current state (as his friend whom he mentions in the article gave up on the fight for chastity) but rather, to seek something more than trusting in self, something more than reading the Bible…to seek the company of another Christian with more experience.

He goes to him because he needs help. He feels the help will come from another fellow Christian who is “a strong believer”. And the Spirit moves him to do the most helpful of all things: to confess his sins.

Immediately there is a sense of relief from the very motion of confessing publicly his hidden sins. He benefits from a devout friend who is ready to listen, give wise advice, and pray.

We further see the Spirit at work in him as he describes in a few lines how his life changed: prayer and reading Scripture, yes, but also…serving other people, doing what is right…And his prayer: his soul longs for fellow people who remind one another that God loves us even when we sin…for a church that feeds the holy side…

Why, if he is already saved and his sinfulness is cloaked under the imputed righteousness of Christ, does his soul feel that there is a holy side that needs to be alimented? Why does his soul feel that this holy side can grow solely through a church that offers fruits of holiness and members who remind one another of God’s love in time of temptation and sin?

There is something quite profound that this honest writer reveals…something that strikes at the heart of the very idea of protestantism and that reminds us all of the Church of Christ, the city on the hill that cannot be hidden, and of the Church Fathers and their forgotten teachings…how difficult is the path for someone who believes that in God’s eyes he is already perfect! He will no longer see the Good Shepherd going out looking for him, he will no longer see the merciful father ready to forgive and embrace and celebrate his return, he will no longer feel st. Paul’s motivation to “work out our salvation”, “discipline our body”, “run as to win the race”… and how difficult is the path when the majestic apostolic power of Confession and Reconciliation, that awe-inspiring Sacrament called by our Eastern brethren “Holy Mystery of Reconciliation”, is hidden from their sight…

God, of course, is not tied to His Sacraments…we trust in His Divine Providence that will find ways to help our brother and all those who are not in full communion with the Church and thus do not have access to the life-giving spring of the Seven Sacraments that Our Lord has given us as a caring Bridegroom offers nuptial gifts to a most beloved spouse…however, one cannot help but realize two things:

• in the reality of his words and of his struggle, we can appreciate the worth of that doctrine which has been preserved unadulterated within the Catholic Church
• and we are also moved to a greater appreciation of that which is sometimes taken for granted (I speak here for myself, of course, but given my lack of uniqueness I am certain that others will feel the same way)

Thanks for bearing with me and I hope some of this is a bit edifying for you as it was for me.

I can appreciate and agree with everything you have said here, but I cannot feel as sorry for these sincere Protestants as I do for those Catholics who go to Confession, hear the beautiful words of absolution, and yet come out of Confession with more doubts about their forgiveness than when they went into it. There are far too many afflicted with scrupulosity and also legalism, and we see this frequently on CAF when we read such questions as “I think the priest said the absolution the wrong way, am I forgiven? or I forgot to say how many times I committed so and so sin, am I forgiven? or I did not not get to finish my penance, am I forgiven? or The priest did not have his stole on, am I forgiven?” or “I don’t feel forgiven, am I forgiven?” and so forth. I am not making fun of this, I am truly appalled at how common this appears to be, and wonder where we failed in their catechesis and why this is so common? Why this lack of trust?

Why are so many Catholics who go to Confession so plagued by doubts about it? I know CAF is only a small sampling of Catholics, and most here are more practicing than the average Catholic, but the number of times these questions come up seems to indicate to me that there is a real problem here, and it is not being adequately addressed, or it is being wrongly addressed.

Anyway, what you have written is really true and we are so privileged to have access to God’s mercy in this beautiful Sacrament, I just sometimes go off on a tangent. Forgive me, but I really have this concern.

 

[jmcrae]

I can appreciate and agree with everything you have said here, but I cannot feel as sorry for these sincere Protestants as I do for those Catholics who go to Confession, hear the beautiful words of absolution, and yet come out of Confession with more doubts about their forgiveness than when they went into it. There are far too many afflicted with scrupulosity and also legalism, and we see this frequently on CAF when we read such questions as “I think the priest said the absolution the wrong way, am I forgiven? or I forgot to say how many times I committed so and so sin, am I forgiven? or I did not not get to finish my penance, am I forgiven? or The priest did not have his stole on, am I forgiven?” or “I don’t feel forgiven, am I forgiven?” and so forth. I am not making fun of this, I am truly appalled at how common this appears to be, and wonder where we failed in their catechesis and why this is so common? Why this lack of trust?

Why are so many Catholics who go to Confession so plagued by doubts about it? I know CAF is only a small sampling of Catholics, and most here are more practicing than the average Catholic, but the number of times these questions come up seems to indicate to me that there is a real problem here, and it is not being adequately addressed, or it is being wrongly addressed.

Anyway, what you have written is really true and we are so privileged to have access to God’s mercy in this beautiful Sacrament, I just sometimes go off on a tangent. Forgive me, but I really have this concern.

It is because society at large teaches us to be connoisseurs of priests, and to critique them on their style, their manners, and their adherence to the minutiae of the law, to the point where every priest’s intentions are in doubt.

People need to be re-taught to trust their priests, and that if the priest says so, then it is so - that we are not a Religion of the Book (not even the Book of Canon Law) but a religion of relationships and of the mercy of God.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Today google directed me to a website called “Christianity today”, that I later found to be “a media ministry for the evangelical church”, and something in an article caught my attention…excerpt below:

Immediately a few things shine brightly to the Catholic eye: before the harsh reality of spiritual warfare, all wishful thinking breaks down.

Notice how this protestant brother experiences a clash between what he believes in good faith and what his spirit experiences: on one side, the “delusion” of “imputed righteousness”: “I am a Christian, so God sees me as perfect as Christ, even though I am a sinner”. On the other hand, the voice of the Spirit saying: “it is not so.” He does not question grace, love, or forgiveness… rather, he doesn’t feel it. He doesn’t feel in a state of grace. He doesn’t feel forgiven.

He obviously has no other choice than to turn on to himself, to trust in himself. He is forced to carry the full burden. His frustration increases.

However, we cannot doubt, not even for a second, that he was truly trying to serve Christ rather than sin: for the Spirit is clearly seen at work in his words. We see the Spirit moving him not to accepting his current state (as his friend whom he mentions in the article gave up on the fight for chastity) but rather, to seek something more than trusting in self, something more than reading the Bible…to seek the company of another Christian with more experience.

He goes to him because he needs help. He feels the help will come from another fellow Christian who is “a strong believer”. And the Spirit moves him to do the most helpful of all things: to confess his sins.

Immediately there is a sense of relief from the very motion of confessing publicly his hidden sins. He benefits from a devout friend who is ready to listen, give wise advice, and pray.

We further see the Spirit at work in him as he describes in a few lines how his life changed: prayer and reading Scripture, yes, but also…serving other people, doing what is right…And his prayer: his soul longs for fellow people who remind one another that God loves us even when we sin…for a church that feeds the holy side…

Why, if he is already saved and his sinfulness is cloaked under the imputed righteousness of Christ, does his soul feel that there is a holy side that needs to be alimented? Why does his soul feel that this holy side can grow solely through a church that offers fruits of holiness and members who remind one another of God’s love in time of temptation and sin?

There is something quite profound that this honest writer reveals…something that strikes at the heart of the very idea of protestantism and that reminds us all of the Church of Christ, the city on the hill that cannot be hidden, and of the Church Fathers and their forgotten teachings…how difficult is the path for someone who believes that in God’s eyes he is already perfect! He will no longer see the Good Shepherd going out looking for him, he will no longer see the merciful father ready to forgive and embrace and celebrate his return, he will no longer feel st. Paul’s motivation to “work out our salvation”, “discipline our body”, “run as to win the race”… and how difficult is the path when the majestic apostolic power of Confession and Reconciliation, that awe-inspiring Sacrament called by our Eastern brethren “Holy Mystery of Reconciliation”, is hidden from their sight…

God, of course, is not tied to His Sacraments…we trust in His Divine Providence that will find ways to help our brother and all those who are not in full communion with the Church and thus do not have access to the life-giving spring of the Seven Sacraments that Our Lord has given us as a caring Bridegroom offers nuptial gifts to a most beloved spouse…however, one cannot help but realize two things:

• in the reality of his words and of his struggle, we can appreciate the worth of that doctrine which has been preserved unadulterated within the Catholic Church
• and we are also moved to a greater appreciation of that which is sometimes taken for granted (I speak here for myself, of course, but given my lack of uniqueness I am certain that others will feel the same way)

Thanks for bearing with me and I hope some of this is a bit edifying for you as it was for me.

As a former Evangelical, I appreciate very much, you sharing this article. It speaks volumes to me, as everything was internalized as an Evangelical, and there was always a longing in my heart for confession. It is in fact something that comes up a lot at the Evangelical church, but we just were always advised to pray to God. Unfortunatly our souls knew better, but we did not have the understanding to practice confession.

Thanks for sharing, and lets keep our Protestant brothers and sisters in our prayers. They long so much for the truth, but are somewhat blinded by their traditions.

 

[CB_Catholic]

It is because society at large teaches us to be connoisseurs of priests, and to critique them on their style, their manners, and their adherence to the minutiae of the law, to the point where every priest’s intentions are in doubt.

People need to be re-taught to trust their priests, and that if the priest says so, then it is so - that we are not a Religion of the Book (not even the Book of Canon Law) but a religion of relationships and of the mercy of God.

Yes, I think you have p(name removed by moderator)ointed at least part of the problem–we often forget the fact that we are a religion of relationship and of God’s mercy and are not merely a set of rules to be followed.

I think sometimes it is easier to just follow the rules than to go a bit further and develop a relationship with God, but I don’t want to pass judgment on anyone. It is just something that I observe in the way people talk and write about the faith that disturbs me greatly. Like God is out to get you if every “i” is not dotted or “t” crossed. That seems contrary to the purpose of the Sacrament, which is to bring us back into relationship with God, if it is broken.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Why, if he is already saved and his sinfulness is cloaked under the imputed righteousness of Christ, does his soul feel that there is a holy side that needs to be alimented? Why does his soul feel that this holy side can grow solely through a church that offers fruits of holiness and members who remind one another of God’s love in time of temptation and sin?

Hi R_C—I’m kind of puzzled. Do you think Protestant churches do not teach that “there is a holy side that needs to be alimented, etc…”?

I’m wondering if you can post the whole article?

 

[R_C]

Hi R_C—I’m kind of puzzled. Do you think Protestant churches do not teach that “there is a holy side that needs to be alimented, etc…”?

I’m wondering if you can post the whole article?

I think you missed the point of my post, but it’s fine. No, I may be very ignorant on the matter but I know enough of the few major significant doctrines that we term “protestant” in order to know to what degree they teach this. The point, though, is not what I think or know about non-Catholic Christian doctrines, but what our Christian brother experienced within one such community (though he does not state to which ecclesial community, if any, he belongs to).

I am not looking forward to a discussion on the topic, for we are walking two separate paths: there is one thing that unites all “protestant” doctrines, and it is their firm belief that the Church is mistaken. If the Catholic Church stands right in her claim to preserve the deposit of faith and the apostolic tradition and succession, in short of being the Church of Christ of which Scripture speaks, then each and every protestant denomination is at least on some basic (yet fundamental) point not fully correct, and the only sensible thing to do would be to shift towards a fuller communion with the Church. Someone who follows a protestant community has as his one main dogma of faith the following proposition: “the Roman Catholic Church is in error.” Let us then, please, avoid any discussion on the topic…if in five centuries there are still millions who prefer to follow protestant doctrines although the vast majority of Christedom is Catholic, then neither I will succeed in refute protestantism, nor will you succeed in convincing a Catholic who has an average knowledge of his Church.

Please, just take my original post for what it is: a remark of a Catholic who noticed with sincere humility and displeasure that a brother in the faith had a longing in his heart which whatever non-Catholic doctrine he had so far followed could not satisfy.

I will send you a link to the article if I find it. I did not keep the link because it was on a specific topic that I had no desire to further expand on in this thread.

Wishing you a blessed rest of the week!

 

[manualman]

R_C;10793904...:

Notice how this protestant brother experiences a clash between what he believes in good faith and what his spirit experiences: on one side, the “delusion” of “imputed righteousness”: “I am a Christian, so God sees me as perfect as Christ, even though I am a sinner”. On the other hand, the voice of the Spirit saying: “it is not so.” He does not question grace, love, or forgiveness… rather, he doesn’t feel it. He doesn’t feel in a state of grace. He doesn’t feel forgiven.
…

This part resonated with me as this was a major area in a time in my life when I had ZERO faithful catholics around me and many sincere evangelicals as close friends. They could never quite grasp that their theology amounted to asserting that God deludes Himself when He looks at us believers here on earth. It always struck me as grotesque.

Another way it often manifested was when they used the phrase “Christ COVERS our sins with his righteousness.” How sadly short of the catholic understanding that not just our actual sins, but our very inclinations towards sin will be removed from us by the time we enter heaven via a lifetime of accepting Grace. How much greater a revelation than merely sinners covered by righteousness! (Besides, it fails their OWN test in that the bible never speaks of Christ “covering” our sins)