Sad this morning

[The_Catholic]

I’m not sure if this is the proper room to put this in, but my wife and I got in an argument today. Well, sort of. She got on the subject of homosexuality,trans-gender, even beastiality, and as long as those people are not hurting you, those things are ok. She has believed this for a time. She is not homosexual or any of the above, but has many friends who are, AND who have been abused by “christians” and other people who should be brought back into the Old testament days and stoned. The “christian” raped her friend, believing he would cast out demons, lol, how pathetic! And other typical people have beat them badly, just for fun.

I condem that, but still, I can’t say that these three things are right. They’re unGodly, as the Bible tells us, Jewish tradition and the early Church Fathers. But her tone went very high, and angry at me for what I believe. She is just being concerned for her friends, but still, this isn’t the first time she has lashed against me for my beliefs, knowing that I think it’s wrong. In her eyes, only myself, and pehaps a dear friend of mine, are the only Christians who are true to what they say. Not hypicritical. All other christians have been mean, judgmental, even spiteful in her life. She also used to be a Catholic, she’s the reason why I converted from Protestantism. I decided to investigate Catholism and God blew me away with so much Truth dazzled at the thought of God But now she considers herself lost.

She is a very good person, sweet and caring, and just wants no harm to come to another human being. so am I, so are the TRUE Christians and children of God. But that doesn’t mean we have to excuse evil. Sin is rebellion against God, and He’s perfect. What He says is Truth, and is the best way. Though I am never good with words during confrontation so I did not know what else to say.

 

[The_Catholic]

Part of me wanted to get mad at God, “are You testing me?? Why oh WHY my Lord! You know my heart and can’t stand to be in this position. You know how much I love Melissa, why does this have to happen!” But I know I must submit to Him, and I have. Whatever He wants. He knows what’s best whether I understand it or not.

Overall, I’m just sad this morning because of this. Please pray for my wife, if she could just see the true Christians out there and not the hyprocrits, not the self-rightoues pharisees of Jesus’ time. Maybe she’d come back. I don’t know. Please just pray.

 

[AspiringDeacon]

I wrote this about two years ago, it was published in our Diocesan newspaper. It is wrapped around the issue of pro-life, but the principle is the same as yours - when there is a lack of objective truth, chaos results. This was a bit of a logical approach to the argument, maybe it will help you some! And I’ll pray for you both…

As the media broadcasts our society’s struggles with issues like Terry Schaivo’s death, stem-cell research, Roe v. Wade, and genocide in the Sudan, people are realizing that their personal “choices” are not always aligned with everyone else’s. Where people disagree, someone thinks murder is being committed. That is very unsettling.

Our legislators wrote laws legalizing abortion in support of individual “free choice”. In this case, “free choice” confuses “choice” with “right vs. wrong”. I am judged by the decisions I “freely” make. However, I am not absolved from the consequences of those decisions—that is illogical reasoning.

However, there is more to it.

Society’s morality guides the laws our leaders enact. Unfortunately, instead of living in a society whose morality denounces all murder, we live in an age where the definition of “acceptable murder” is based on “personal choice”. Therefore, worldwide, we have many governments supporting “acceptable murder”—from a single murder (abortion, mercy-killing, euthanasia) to thousands at a time (genocide). Individuals are in conflicted agreement with these laws, based on their own personal beliefs. There is no singular truth!

Consider this as well – given the broad definition of “acceptable murder” that our society affirms, it is a safe bet that more “acceptable murder” laws will appear—some of which an individual might agree with, and some that they won’t. Is it a surprise that in the last fifty years, there have been more legalized cases for abortion once the lawmakers approved the first exception? Is our society better now that we have “physician assisted suicide”? Weren’t there many Americans who thought the compete annihilation of Afghanistan and Iran was morally acceptable, “given the situation”? Aren’t there many people in the world that think the annihilation of the United States is also morally acceptable?

Personal free choice regarding human life is not a solid moral foundation. A single truth, that our society equally respects everyone’s life, is morally sound. We should realize that selective murder isn’t just an issue to debate, it’s a serious disease undermining our society.

Basic human dignity starts with a right to life. From conception to death, a person grows to the next day without intervention—“it” continues to live. “Stopping it”, therefore, is a violation of human dignity – murder – whether it is abortion, genocide, or euthanasia.
Maybe the growing confusion we see in society today will lead us to believe a single moral truth about human life – and that will turn our society away from accepting murder as a personal choice. If we can accept the truth that God taught us, we will realize that our own selfish truths get our society in a lot of trouble.

Maybe we will be settled when we respect everyone’s human dignity.

 

[The_Catholic]

I wrote this about two years ago, it was published in our Diocesan newspaper. It is wrapped around the issue of pro-life, but the principle is the same as yours - when there is a lack of objective truth, chaos results. This was a bit of a logical approach to the argument, maybe it will help you some! And I’ll pray for you both…

That was very good and well written, but how does it help the homosexuality/transgender/beastiality issues? I’m not that wise, or smart, so if it did I couldn’t see it.

 

[The_Catholic]

I also wanted to add that my wife is strictly against abortion, because it involves hurting another human being. But if two men or women want to share relations, then they’re not hurting anyone. That’s how she sees it.

 

[TOP]

Part of me wanted to get mad at God, “are You testing me?? Why oh WHY my Lord! You know my heart and can’t stand to be in this position. You know how much I love Melissa, why does this have to happen!” But I know I must submit to Him, and I have. Whatever He wants. He knows what’s best whether I understand it or not.

Overall, I’m just sad this morning because of this. Please pray for my wife, if she could just see the true Christians out there and not the hyprocrits, not the self-rightoues pharisees of Jesus’ time. Maybe she’d come back. I don’t know. Please just pray.

This may be the enemies tactic of divide and conquer. He is always attacking my family with stupid stuff. Yeild to your wife in arguement, but not in theology that is against sound teachings of the Church. It takes time for the Lord to change people through others. Just avoid arguing for now. Hang in there brother, Tim

 

[The_Catholic]

This may be the enemies tactic of divide and conquer. He is always attacking my family with stupid stuff. Yeild to your wife in arguement, but not in theology that is against sound teachings of the Church. It takes time for the Lord to change people through others. Just avoid arguing for now. Hang in there brother, Tim

Thank you man.

God bless you.

 

[Kevin42]

If what I picked up was right, then you have come back to the Catholic Church, but she is still Protestant, or she is ‘wandering’ in her faith journey. One possibility is that she was emotionally hurt when you decided to come back to the Church and she is struggling with that. Of course, this is just a small guess from a couple of paragraphs you have given us about the situation. I really suggest you find a good priest who you can talk to face to face. Either way, you and your wife will be in all of our prayers.

Peace.

 

[blessedstar]

Everyone who does evil causes harm as all are suffering for each others sin and each man is paying his own debt and the debt of his brother and sister in Christ Jesus and this is why we are tested and this is why we do suffer and this is why we are labouring on carrying our crosses, but God has taken the worst of humanity and brought it forth to bring about the greatest of joy and by our enduring in Jesus we too work for our own salvation and the salvation of others.

This being said, we do not let injustice flourish or we too would be doing an evil by ommitting to do what is just, that also being said we are kindly to the sinner because they wouldn’t be as such if they weren’t suffering in their soul and ailing in spirit.

Why repeatedly state to your wife that what they do is a sin? She truly knows this but tries to justify it because her compassion for people and past experience in life is compelling her this way, but her heart knows and you infuriate her because she does not wish to acknowledge it. So the only way to justify it is to say that those who are preaching don’t practise what they preach and are just as sinful if not worse and leave them be because they don’t cause me personal harm. The conversation turns into a row and the row turns into yelling vitriole at each other. Then tell me their actions do not cause suffering in the world. Every sinful action causes suffering in the world.

Try and keep the peace and keep off the subject

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[Belle10]

I also wanted to add that my wife is strictly against abortion, because it involves hurting another human being. But if two men or women want to share relations, then they’re not hurting anyone. That’s how she sees it.

Good morning

While she can be concerned for her friends and want them to be treated kindly and with respect (as they should be) she cannot condone their behavior. In saying that homosexuality is wrong it doesn’t mean that you think you’re better (for we are ALL sinners) – it just means that you recognize God’s truth is not subjective. Homosexuality does hurt the people involved, because according to the Bible and the CCC (referenced below) it is intrinsically disordered and damaging to the soul.

We should all be kind to each other, because none of us are worthy of God’s love. Only through Jesus are we able to know God’s love – and in receiving God’s love, we are called to share it and preach his gospel and his truth.

I hope this helps. I’ll say a prayer for your wife and for you.
God bless.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
(choose index, then search by letter – it makes it easy to find what you’re looking for)
Here’s just a bit of what I found (you should also look up sexuality because there’s a lot more information there):

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

 

[Coreopisis]

Maybe you just want your wife to read St. Pauls first letter to the Corinthians…

" 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? **Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. **11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

 

[Coreopisis]

You know I’ve been thinking about this for an hour now.

I live in a part of the USA that has a LOT of homosexuals. In fact I, myself am single and I know many single women. There seem to be very few straight unmarried men in our area and the lack there-of causes a few problems:

• The homosexual population continues to increase as they attract to eachother.
• There seem to be far more single straight women than men.
• Single straight men know they have a lot to pick from and so they tend to date multiple women or cheat on their wives. I’ve had married men ask me to go home with them or date them on a few occasions now. They can get away with this because there aren’t enough straight men to go around. They don’t even bother to try to hide it.
• Single women are very competitive and paranoid if they do date anyone. It is hard not to be. For me personally I’ve now dated 2 different men that have turned out to decide they are gay. I don’t even bother dating anymore.
• I’ve also noticed that gay men tend to show sexuality and sexual acts more than straight people do. They flaunt it. (not all of course) But this does make it uncomfortable to raise a child around this. Please note that it is uncomfortable even when straight people make out in public, but I’ve noticed they don’t do this as much.

These experiances have led me on occasions to feel like there is something inherently wrong with being a woman.

National Geographic did a census of single men and women ratios and put it in one of their issues a couple years ago. Our area had tons of single men and women so it looks ripe for dating. What they neglected is that most of those single men are gay.

Please understand that I am aware that I am generalizing here but from my experiance, and those of my friends, this is what I see happening around me.

Also, please understand that I have gay friends. I love them as I would any friend. They too see what I am talking about.

My point is that I don’t think people realize that homosexuality actually does cause some problems for some people. I know homosexuals don’t go out and directly “hurt” anyone. But it does cause problems, in these extreme cases, with the building of the traditional family and the birth of children.

I am treading on scary ground posting this and mean no harm. Just thought I would post some observations.

I do believe we shoudl respect all people homosexual or not. I guess I am just providing an arguement describing how it is possible to hurt people with it. I hope this makes sense and I seriously apologize if this hurts anyone. No harm intended.

 

[blessedstar]

My point is that I don’t think people realize that homosexuality actually does cause some problems for some people. I know homosexuals don’t go out and directly “hurt” anyone. But it does cause problems, in these extreme cases, with the building of the traditional family and the birth of children.

I am treading on scary ground posting this and mean no harm. Just thought I would post some observations.

I do believe we shoudl respect all people homosexual or not. I guess I am just providing an arguement describing how it is possible to hurt people with it. I hope this makes sense and I seriously apologize if this hurts anyone. No harm intended.

Good post.

I too have gay friends. I love them very much and think they are good people and kind people. I accept them as people, but I cannot accept some of the ways they have taken.

One couple invited me to a gay civil partnership ceremony.This couple are beautiful people, very kind and sensitive and are like family to me. I knew I couldn’t go. I knew if I didn’t go it would cause damage to the friendship and it took me along time in prayer to gain the strength to follow God. I told them I wasn’t going and I did not want to deter them from following Jesus I told them I couldn’t make it. They were very upset, they had asked me to be a primary witness. I tried many times to talk with them. They broke off the friendship, but I told them I would always be their friend. I suffered so much as a result of all this, I suffered because I missed my friends. I suffered because I had hurt them by this decision.

Time passed and I prayed to Jesus that the friendship be restored. Out of the blue they called me, I was so over the moon because I do love anyone who is my friend very much, but these friends I love very dearly. I invited them around to discuss it all. I spent the next hour in prayer to the Holy Spirit to help me to talk to them, listen to them and respond to them as He would like me to.

They came to the door and as I opened it we just looked at each other and embraced. We shed tears, tears of joy, tears of relief, tears of sorrow. I explained that I did in no way judge them as I am no-one’s judge, I explained in no way did I want to lose their friendship. I explained that I simply had to do what I believed to be right. They understood this.

I thank God greatly that I have those friends and I cannot condemn them, I love them.

My friends were only doing what they believed to be right for them and I can’t condemn them or judge that.However I will always believe what I believe and do what my conscience dictates.

Peace is made where there is a will for peace and peace comes when we accept others and others accept us.

Being a homosexual is not wrong, but I do hold it is wrong to practise homosexulaity and enter into civil partnerships. I don’t think anyone should treat anyone badly and I don’t think anyone should be deterring people who are homosexual from seeking Jesus.

The trouble is is that Catholics are caught between a rock and hard place in making it clear they love their friends who are gay whilst also remaining faithful to the Church and the faith.

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[AspiringDeacon]

That was very good and well written, but how does it help the homosexuality/transgender/beastiality issues? I’m not that wise, or smart, so if it did I couldn’t see it.

I thought it applied because the root issue is a failure to believe that there is objective truth, that I can do whatever I want to do if it doesn’t hurt anyone else (in my opinion).

This is the cause that promotes immoral sexual behavior, murder, and anything else people feel they have the “freedom” to do these days. My point is that when everyone takes the same position on “freedom”, things get chaotic and a little scary very quickly.

 

[Coreopisis]

Good post.

I too have gay friends. I love them very much and think they are good people and kind people. I accept them as people, but I cannot accept some of the ways they have taken.

One couple invited me to a gay civil partnership ceremony.This couple are beautiful people, very kind and sensitive and are like family to me. I knew I couldn’t go. I knew if I didn’t go it would cause damage to the friendship and it took me along time in prayer to gain the strength to follow God. I told them I wasn’t going and I did not want to deter them from following Jesus I told them I couldn’t make it. They were very upset, they had asked me to be a primary witness. I tried many times to talk with them. They broke off the friendship, but I told them I would always be their friend. I suffered so much as a result of all this, I suffered because I missed my friends. I suffered because I had hurt them by this decision.

Time passed and I prayed to Jesus that the friendship be restored. Out of the blue they called me, I was so over the moon because I do love anyone who is my friend very much, but these friends I love very dearly. I invited them around to discuss it all. I spent the next hour in prayer to the Holy Spirit to help me to talk to them, listen to them and respond to them as He would like me to.

They came to the door and as I opened it we just looked at each other and embraced. We shed tears, tears of joy, tears of relief, tears of sorrow. I explained that I did in no way judge them as I am no-one’s judge, I explained in no way did I want to lose their friendship. I explained that I simply had to do what I believed to be right. They understood this.

I thank God greatly that I have those friends and I cannot condemn them, I love them.

My friends were only doing what they believed to be right for them and I can’t condemn them or judge that.However I will always believe what I believe and do what my conscience dictates.

Peace is made where there is a will for peace and peace comes when we accept others and others accept us.

Being a homosexual is not wrong, but I do hold it is wrong to practise homosexulaity and enter into civil partnerships. I don’t think anyone should treat anyone badly and I don’t think anyone should be deterring people who are homosexual from seeking Jesus.

The trouble is is that Catholics are caught between a rock and hard place in making it clear they love their friends who are gay whilst also remaining faithful to the Church and the faith.

In the Living Prayer of my life

Thank you for not taking offense to my post. Sounds like we are, or have been in similar situations.

One minor detail though , I am not sure that homosexuality is ok, at least not the sexual part, simply because Paul says it isn’t in the bible via the first letter to the corinthians.

We all sin. We all have our weaknesses so I can’t judge them and I thank God every day that I don’t have to face any homosexual tendencies of my own as I think it would be really hard. So in that respect I actually pity them.

I am thinking that the reason it becomes such an issue is that it is sort of publicized and people get upset when you don’t agree with that behavior. If I think about those behaviors with another sin, for example, lying and compare it, it does sound ridiculus. “I deserve freedom to lie and if it doesn’t bother you why do you care?” But overall it hurts society in the long run.

I don’t know. I guess I haven’t thought this out well enough.

Two of my friends who are gay and have been in a 17 year monogomous relationship and are good upstanding members of society. I’ve sort of backed away from them for a few reasons I wont get into on this forum, but there is one small piece linked to being gay. I am fearful of hurting them if the subject were to come up and I ws to voice my opinions about Gay marriage. I don’t want to be hurtful but everything about their life is built around being gay, if I were to voice any opinions I would be hurting the core of their beings and I don’t want to do that.

It is tough.

 

[blessedstar]

Two of my friends who are gay and have been in a 17 year monogomous relationship and are good upstanding members of society. I’ve sort of backed away from them for a few reasons I wont get into on this forum, but there is one small piece linked to being gay. I am fearful of hurting them if the subject were to come up and I ws to voice my opinions about Gay marriage. I don’t want to be hurtful but everything about their life is built around being gay, if I were to voice any opinions I would be hurting the core of their beings and I don’t want to do that.

It is tough.

Yes it is tough, I am a straight single woman so I cannot even imagine their agony.

You are right it strikes at the very centre of who they believe themselves to be. That is certainly dangerous territory as no-one likes to be called that deeply into question. I can understand why gay people react as they do, it is most difficult for them. Identity is an important part of a persons life; everything hinges around a persons identity.

I hope and pray you never find yourself in the same situation I was in. It was a very painful situation all round, painful for my friends and painful for me. I effectively was placed in a situation of choosing between God and my friends.

I am blessed to have two friends who are very understanding and compassionate otherwise the friendship would have been destroyed. I think this speaks a great deal about the kind of people they are. They didn’t judge me, they didn’t shout at me, they didn’t hate me. Initially they did cut me off, but this is understandable, they were very hurt. I see God working in those friends in so many ways. I think it is clear that as much as I love them, they love me also. To forgive is Divine. They bore patiently with me and I with them because we love each other. My friends love me a great deal and I hope for all good things for them, keep them in my heart and hope to share heaven with them God willing.

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[happyseppy]

This may be the enemies tactic of divide and conquer. He is always attacking my family with stupid stuff. Yeild to your wife in arguement, but not in theology that is against sound teachings of the Church. It takes time for the Lord to change people through others. Just avoid arguing for now. Hang in there brother, Tim

Good Advice Tim!
I would only add saying a daily Rosary for her, Catholic. Powerful worker of change!

Peace,

Kelly

 

[Coreopisis]

Yes it is tough, I am a straight single woman so I cannot even imagine their agony.

You are right it strikes at the very centre of who they believe themselves to be. That is certainly dangerous territory as no-one likes to be called that deeply into question. I can understand why gay people react as they do, it is most difficult for them. Identity is an important part of a persons life; everything hinges around a persons identity.

I hope and pray you never find yourself in the same situation I was in. It was a very painful situation all round, painful for my friends and painful for me. I effectively was placed in a situation of choosing between God and my friends.

I am blessed to have two friends who are very understanding and compassionate otherwise the friendship would have been destroyed. I think this speaks a great deal about the kind of people they are. They didn’t judge me, they didn’t shout at me, they didn’t hate me. Initially they did cut me off, but this is understandable, they were very hurt. I see God working in those friends in so many ways. I think it is clear that as much as I love them, they love me also. To forgive is Divine. They bore patiently with me and I with them because we love each other. My friends love me a great deal and I hope for all good things for them, keep them in my heart and hope to share heaven with them God willing.

In the Living Prayer of my life

thank you for the kind words. It IS hard and I am glad yours turned out as wells as it did. But you do have to sometimes walk through hell to get to heaven don’t you? I think I heard that in a song once and I kinda like it.

The truth is that I sin too even though I try not to. Unfortunately their sin (if you believe it is) is written accross their foreheads so to speak so it is easy for others to judge them quickly. My sins are hidden from others as they mostly happen in my own mind.

Knowing that I have sins like this helps me to be kinder to others like this.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The Catholic

Well, I know your dilema. I have an aunt and cousin who are lesbians.

I follow Pope John Paul II on this issue. We are to love them, and pray for them. Who knows what sort of cross they carry?

From my own perspective, I see this as their poverty as we all are poor in various aspects of our lives.

It would be easy for me as a happily married heterosexual to condemn homosexuality, but I don’t have to live it. I’m don’t even capable of understanding it.

So, treat them as Jesus would. This doesn’t mean you have to embrace their life-style or confirm it. But treat them with with love and compassion.

Jim

 

[ChinaDad]

The Catholic-

I feel sure that you do not condone the mistreatment of others, or relish in their pain or agony. You didn’t say, but I hope Melissa perhaps believes that the way her friends are living is sinful, and simply believes (and I think rightfully so) that her friends and others should not be mistreated no matter how they are living wrongly.

Is there anyway for you to work to find the common ground with Melissa on this subject. I don’t think not discussing it is good for either of you, it sounds as though this subject is only widening a divide between the two fo you.

I suggest that perhaps you have 2 points of common ground as I said in my first paragraph.

I’m not suggesting not to be true to your beliefs (I have the same beliefs), but you can hate the sin without hating the sinner. Stating it another way, you can love the sinner while hating the sins.

Perhaps you could use this as common ground, and with your wife pray for her friends. Pray that they are not hurt by others, and also pray that they turn away from their sins and come closer to God.

I don’t believe that one human being has the right to hurt another for their lifestyle choices. What this amounts to is a hate crime, and the judgement of others. Their is one judge, so we should leave the judging to HIM.

Peace be with you and your wife my friend.