Saddened by a website

[Hisalone]

Confused. Be blunt. Do you think Mass is worship? Do you see how Mass defers from honor to Mary?

The Mass and Mary worship are different.
Be blunt? I was Catholic doctrine of one true church in which they are the Body of Christ and all its members and those not Catholic are not true members of that body. A body has many members. Christ is the head all believers make up the other parts.Is the and better than the foot?

 

[Hisalone]

Never said anything of the sort. I will however admit I am quite suspicious of this line of argumentation given your opening statement that worship and veneration are the same thing. I believe you are looking to play on my words and thus refuse you full and complete answers as I might in an honest debate, if this is wrong I ask your forgiveness for such presumption.

You said that the veneration you saw was not hyperdulia but you would never give that type of veneration to Mary. So my question is so you believe their is a leel ofveneration above hyperdulia. It is your own words that have created this trap you are now in. And yes it will be interesting to see how you respond.

 

[Hisalone]

how come you felt the need to not complete the statement? i stated the Church has never erred in doctrine. if it was not for the Church you would not have the doctrine of the trinity, you wouldnt even have a bible. please if your gonna ask a question on somthing that is said. please include the whole statement you wish to question.thank you.

You said Jesus said it and you believe it.
What did Jesus say. I am assuming you are refering to Matt 16.
Is that what you were refering to?

 

[Hisalone]

Honestly now, I have been following this thread and you have succeeded in hijacking it. This stuff has nothing to do with the OP. If you want to debate the “worship of Mary” or “veneration of Mary” or whatever it is you are attempting to talk about, why don’t you start another thread? Why don’t you?? It isn’t hard to do and it would be a lot more Christian and just plain nicer to the OP who is a confused new Catholic receiving misleading information, some of which is being provided by you.

I am not proiding any misinformation. I am attempting to dissect what you call misinformation. Is this forum any place for a 15 year old confused about their faith should come?
I do not support a lot of what is said on Jesus is Lord however not everything on tha site is bogus.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

So I miss a last post on a page, and I am accussed of not being able to answer, hogwash. Your discipline becomes tradition.
What is fair is for me to use biblical standards to define your terminology.
Doctrines that wernt finalized for nearly 1,600, 1,700, 1800 years after the apostles you say were traditions of the apostles? As they say I may have been born at night but it was not last night.

To get back to the original website can you explain this to me?
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%

Hogwash. If you don’t use this site, why the explanation? It is not factual, accurate, and entirely false about what it says about the Catholic faith. Have you read Catholic sources from Catholics and listened to your fellow Catholic Christian whom have explained the faith to you?

P.S. I apologize for any harshness. Having trouble with kidney stones and this site helps me distract my mind from the pain. I’m tired of having my faith called “traditions of men”, the whore of babylons, anti-biblical. Just read what Catholic actually believe or better yet experience it yourself. At least you’ll be an informed apologist.

 

[Hisalone]

hi nine two. bingo! these type of services are about self fulfillment. it seems they have replace the Holy Spirit, with a spirit of emotionalism. and their doctrines confirm this. its a feel good message without any conviction for sin, but like other fads… this too shall pass…lol! God bless you and yours.

youtube.com/watch?v=zNp9uH1MBuA

A link that 92 would not post.

 

[Hisalone]

Here’s my experience…I had a pretty radical conversion experience…It turned my life 180…I was just a christian and had an experience just like I read about in the bible…I started into forums and actually was joked about for my “born new” experience…Believe it or not it was more Catholic than Orthodox…I figured I’ll see where these groups are coming from…While I noticed practices I didn’t see in the scriptures it seemed the Orthodox and it conciliar operation was closer to what I read in the early church…I read about some dogmas and traditions and thought “where do they come up with this stuff”. It was about the same time people were going nuts over rust ,water and oil stains…And the verse came to me in Matt 24 where Jesus warned about running after sightings of Him…I was in a thread where they insisted Mary was my mother because the scripture said “behold your mother” I showed her the scripture and He say to John behold your mother for Jesus wanted His beloved John to care for her…And His mother to John, behold your son…And they blew it off…And a few other ideas that don’t say what the scripture actually said…I think to myself "aren’t these people digging into the scriptures themselves…We are to study to show our self’s approved, rightly dividing His word…We are to hide that word in our heart to keep us from sin…I just see so much that built on fragments aor some on no scripture at all…Anyway, these are just my thoughts and observations and are meant for no offense…

Amen

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Amen

If you guys feel like your biblical beliefs are attacked, what about Catholics whom are called Mary worship, ignorant of the Bible, blindly followers of traditions of men, don’t know Jesus, damned, papist necromancers?

I

 

[Hisalone]

Hogwash. If you don’t use this site, why the explanation? It is not factual, accurate, and entirely false about what it says about the Catholic faith. Have you read Catholic sources from Catholics and listened to your fellow Catholic Christian whom have explained the faith to you?

P.S. I apologize for any harshness. Having trouble with kidney stones and this site helps me distract my mind from the pain. I’m tired of having my faith called “traditions of men”, the whore of babylons, anti-biblical. Just read what Catholic actually believe or better yet experience it yourself. At least you’ll be an informed apologist.

Be blunt it is easier to talk straight foward than to have to address a dodge. I posted a picture from that site I guessing any link to that site has been turned off by this site becuase of antiCatholicism. I posted a picture without any commentary. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words. The picture depicts a group huddled around a statue of Mary on a hilltop. I am always curious how staunch Catholics address this. I guess it is like the Mexican Catholic thread where no matter how over the top there are those that will defend it.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Be blunt it is easier to talk straight foward than to have to address a dodge. I posted a picture from that site I guessing any link to that site has been turned off by this site becuase of antiCatholicism. I posted a picture without any commentary. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words. The picture depicts a group huddled around a statue of Mary on a hilltop. I am always curious how staunch Catholics address this. I guess it is like the Mexican Catholic thread where no matter how over the top there are those that will defend it.

What’s your beef with the photo?

1. Bowing
2. What is worship?
3. Prayers said to Mary i.e. she really is God, look at x and y said…
4. Mary shouldn’t be honoured
5. Statues in general…
6. All the above.

I believe we already talked about it another thread about how it looks (see “if it quacks like a duck” offense) vs. what the true nature of it is.

I cannot really comment on it if I don’t know what you think is happening…That being said, I’m tired and passing out now. See ya tomorrow world…

 

[greggy53]

I’m only 15 and just a beginner Catholic, and I wasn’t aware of ALL the misinterpretation of Catholocism by other branches of Christianity. But now I have some idea. I found a website called jesus-is-savior.com, which devoted a lot of time to terrible misinterpretation through words, pictures, etc. Of Roman Catholocism. It shocked me. Naively, I hadn’t thought of what wrong things others might be reading about the faith. The website claimed that Catholics worship Mary, Catholics are heretics, the rosary is from the devil, etc. The whole thing has made me extremely sad. Have you seen this website personally, or had a similar experience of shock that I’ve had? How can anyone believe those things against the church?

I visited this website, and believe me the people behind it are nut jobs. The Catholic Church has long been the main target for lunatics. Why? because we are not only the biggest kid on the block we’ve also been there the longest. We are open and visible, and that always makes for a large target. Most importantly, because we are the one true Church any other outfit that wants to make a similar claim has to discredit us first. Their existence as a denomination can only be justified if the Catholic faith is wrong.

 

[Nine_Two]

You said that the veneration you saw was not hyperdulia but you would never give that type of veneration to Mary. So my question is so you believe their is a leel ofveneration above hyperdulia. It is your own words that have created this trap you are now in. And yes it will be interesting to see how you respond.

Your words were a trap from the beginning, and my rhetorical skills are not up to those of my Lord and Savior when he was faced with Pharisees. But I shall try.

First you are inserting words that were never in the argument. Hyperdulia is a western term, I have never heard of a distinction between the veneration given to the Theotokos, and the veneration given to other saints within my tradition. Secondly, it is clear you wanted me to say it is “equivalent” so you could then somehow believe in your own heart that since I hold it to be the same as veneration it must mean that veneration is worship. You also took the leap of faith that somehow I held your worship service in higher regard than veneration.

It is on the same level as veneration, I simply refuse to call it equivalent because I do not want someone to mistakingly believe we would say those same words during veneration.

 

[Nine_Two]

I just saw that one. I love how it talks about illuminati symbols on the cross. The site is good for a laugh maybe, but it is sad that some people actually believe what it says.

 

[dianaiad]

Who are you to talk of belittling? You who barrelled into this thread claiming we worship the saints!

I spent years engaging in that sort of “worship” I know exactly what it is. It is more concerned with self-fullfillment than it does with the worship of the divine. As I said, I thought the music was beautiful, it just isn’t worship.

I don’t get the problem here.

“Worship” is very personal, and extremely subjective. You are correct; I’m quite certain that many of those folks were simply ‘concert goers,’ but others were indeed worshipping, and Nine two? YOU DON’T GET TO DECIDE WHICH IS WHICH.

I have sung in really good choirs…and I mean…REALLY good ones; Mormon Tabernacle Choir quality. Sometimes the ‘spirit’ is there so strongly that simply singing a simple children’s song is indeed worship—and sometimes singing an incredibly complicated piece of music is----

And the next day neither is.

What makes worship ‘worship’ is not what is DONE. It is the attitude of the doer. I know when I am worshiping, and when I am not—and frankly, sir, you don’t.

by the same token, you know when YOU are worshiping, and I do not. The point is, you don’t get to tell anybody else what ‘worship’ is; it is far too subjective a thing for that.

 

[dianaiad]

Wow, Diana.

You have to give me points for consistency, Xavier. I REALLY dislike anti sites, and I don’t give a hoot who the target is.

 

[TheosisM]

What makes worship ‘worship’ is not what is DONE. It is the attitude of the doer. I know when I am worshiping, and when I am not—and frankly, sir, you don’t.

by the same token, you know when YOU are worshiping, and I do not. The point is, you don’t get to tell anybody else what ‘worship’ is; it is far too subjective a thing for that.

Before I run out the door, I just had to say that I completely agree!

 

[dianaiad]

Before I run out the door, I just had to say that I completely agree!

Well, don’t let it scare you too much.

 

[Kay_Cee]

So I miss a last post on a page, and I am accussed of not being able to answer, hogwash. Your discipline becomes tradition.

What is fair is for me to use biblical standards to define your terminology.
Doctrines that wernt finalized for nearly 1,600, 1,700, 1800 years after the apostles you say were traditions of the apostles? As they say I may have been born at night but it was not last night.

To get back to the original website can you explain this to me?
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%

Well, I wasn’t the one who said you weren’t able to answer. However, I did ask for you to have the courtesy to open a new thread if you wanted to respond, since this is off topic.

Do you have the courtesy or not?

 

[Hiskid1973]

I know that some of this is out there, but sadly some of this actually happened…Neither catholics or protestants have a rosy path…Flesh got in and did a lot of damage to the kingdom but the church grew and the gospel spread in spite of it all. People harp on prots and division, but where did it start…It started when believers said "I’m of Paul, I’m of Peter and kept that attitude all through history…

 

[Nine_Two]

I don’t get the problem here.

“Worship” is very personal, and extremely subjective. You are correct; I’m quite certain that many of those folks were simply ‘concert goers,’ but others were indeed worshipping, and Nine two? YOU DON’T GET TO DECIDE WHICH IS WHICH.

I have sung in really good choirs…and I mean…REALLY good ones; Mormon Tabernacle Choir quality. Sometimes the ‘spirit’ is there so strongly that simply singing a simple children’s song is indeed worship—and sometimes singing an incredibly complicated piece of music is----

And the next day neither is.

What makes worship ‘worship’ is not what is DONE. It is the attitude of the doer. I know when I am worshiping, and when I am not—and frankly, sir, you don’t.

by the same token, you know when YOU are worshiping, and I do not. The point is, you don’t get to tell anybody else what ‘worship’ is; it is far too subjective a thing for that.

There is a major difference between venerating - honouring, and worship - complete and total supplication. Maybe some of the people there were worshiping, however the mindset of non-traditional protestantism tends not to allow for that supplication. It always moves back to the self, even the arguments against me by Hisalone showed that. He claimed Catholics don’t engage in true worship because people sometimes become bored during services.
As you said it is the attitude of the doer, and he never expressed evidence to show any different attitude then what I first stated - which is based off my own experience.

I know you’ve got a chip on your shoulder because you believe everyone is attacking your religion all the time, but that doesn’t mean you get to go around yelling at others, or take them to task in such a manner. In the future, don’t presume to scold me in such a way. Thank you.