Sadness over NFP misuse/misunderstanding

[Onegin]

Nice post, Alexander. I agree 100% with your conclusions and I think you have very concisely explained the correct, Catholic teaching about NFP. Unfortunately, one of the problems with NFP is that it can lead to the temptation to use it like a “Catholic birth control” and I believe that the way it is “marketed” in many parishes and pre-cana classes today leads to a lot of confusion as to when NFP can be used. Oftentimes, couples are left with the idea that NFP is the rule and not the exception. Couples are taught that using NFP from the outset of marriage (regardless of circumstances) is both normal, healthy and - in certain cases - virtuous. This is troubling.

There is an interesting thread on this topic in the Traditional Catholicism forum that you may be interested in reading. God bless.

 

[jilly4ski]

Nice post, Alexander. I agree 100% with your conclusions and I think you have very concisely explained the correct, Catholic teaching about NFP. **Unfortunately, one of the problems with NFP is that it can lead to the temptation to use it like a “Catholic birth control”**and I believe that the way it is “marketed” in many parishes and pre-cana classes today leads to a lot of confusion as to when NFP can be used. Oftentimes, couples are left with the idea that NFP is the rule and not the exception. Couples are taught that using NFP from the outset of marriage (regardless of circumstances) is both normal, healthy and - in certain cases - virtuous. This is troubling.

There is an interesting thread on this topic in the Traditional Catholicism forum that you may be interested in reading. God bless.

I am not laughing at you, but rather at myself and my husband, because we must be terrible at “Catholic birth control.” We got pregnant on our honeymoon (even though we probably had ‘serious’ reasons to avoid, we cut some corners on the method and really didn’t use it. Then I gained my fertility back at 8 months postpartum, and kinda avoided for 3 to 4 months, but not really seriously and got pregnant again the month my cycles became regular like they were pre-pregnancy. Indeed you must discuss and pray every month whether your reasons for avoiding are serious, because having to avoid can be a burden one is not willing to take.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

Nice post, Alexander. I agree 100% with your conclusions and I think you have very concisely explained the correct, Catholic teaching about NFP. Unfortunately, one of the problems with NFP is that it can lead to the temptation to use it like a “Catholic birth control” and I believe that the way it is “marketed” in many parishes and pre-cana classes today leads to a lot of confusion as to when NFP can be used. Oftentimes, couples are left with the idea that NFP is the rule and not the exception. Couples are taught that using NFP from the outset of marriage (regardless of circumstances) is both normal, healthy and - in certain cases - virtuous. This is troubling.

There is an interesting thread on this topic in the Traditional Catholicism forum that you may be interested in reading. God bless.

Thank you.

I will check out the thread.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I understand your example, but I should have clarified a bit. My father stopped drinking some time after he married my mother. He supported my family for a long time, but a year or two so after the hurricane, he stopped trying to find jobs, and then he began to drink again. By that time that 6 of us were already older than 9, so his drinking played no part in any decision to have more kids or not.

I have no problem with NFP. I’m sure it’s helped a lot of people. But whenever I hear couples talk about it, with the exception of people on this forum, I hear it referenced as the Catholic alternative to birth control. I’ve even heard priests talk about it like this, to somehow appease people who criticize the Church for not allowing ABC.

I’m not judging anyone in your family in the least - just want to make that clear…

My point is that there are heavy burdens in this world that many families have to carry. The *motivation *and *desire *to have smaller and/or more spread-out families is just due to the nature of this world we live in. Not only has the “birth control mindset” of our current culture increased this, but we’re also living in a much more high-pressure world than ever before. The *pressure *of parenting is enormous. Decades ago parents weren’t inundated with fear over “proper parenting” either… terms like “responsible parenthood” weren’t discussed to the extent they are today. The amount of daily guilt that mothers feel if they don’t properly educate, nutritiously feed, clothe, and care for their children is huge… these things weren’t discussed in the LEAST decades ago.

So anyway… I agree with what you’re saying… I really do. I just don’t think the mentality of abusing NFP is incredibly rampant because it’s not an EASY thing to do. If someone were really going to fall into the “birth control mindset” they’re probably going to be like 90% of “Catholics” and just use ABC. NFP, on the other hand, requires the SACRIFICE of ABSTINENCE… which is an entirely different mindset than the ABC “sex on my terms when I want it” mentality… it’s sacrificial. If you encounter Catholics speaking of using NFP in the wrong mentality, be a little sympathetic with their situation. Like me not fully understanding your situation, you may not understand theirs. Pray for them.

Peace!

 

[Alexander_Smith]

It was my fault you didn’t get the full picture, I should have explained it better.

 

[former_Catholic]

That’s true, but I can also see it with my own eyes. I often see a very dramatic drop in children per family as each generation passes. Most of my relatives have 2-3 children, wheres my grandparents or great-grandparents had 4-8 or more. Most couples I know have fewer than 4, usually 2 or so. Every time I tell people there are 6 kids in my family, I get comments about how big it is, so something is definitely changing.

Go out to the cemetary sometime and wander among the graves dating from your grandparents and great-grandparents’ day… and take note of how many of those headstones are for kids under the age of 12… and those were the wealthy ones whose families had enough money for a grave with a stone and a doctor’s care. Most families did not have money for either a doctor or a stone.

Have you never heard of scarlet fever, rhumatic fever, cholera, typhoid, typhus, dyptheria, tetanus, whooping cough, pneumonia, smallpox… child labor? 8 year olds working 10 hours a day? Have you not studied history? If you had 8 kids in your great grandparents day and they all survived to adulthood… all the neighbors would be amazed, because more than likely a family would be left with half or less of their children surviving to adulthood.

People these days have 2 or 3 kids and those 2 or 3 kids are extremely likely to survive to adulthood. That wasn’t true 100 years ago. 100 years ago, if you had 6 kids and the scarlet fever left you 2 of them alive, you were lucky, because the scarlet fever often would take all 6 of them. 100 years ago when they were unlucky enough to be born in cities, children worked long hours around heavy machinery and fell asleep on their feet from exhaustion and lost their lives being caught in and ground up by mill machinery. Most kids died before they ever grew up, the only record of them at all would be a baptismal record, if that.

In the pre-WWII era, when most families were still agrarian in the western world, children helped work the land and hold onto the land, which was the family’s source of survival.
In an industrial world, having children limits your availability and mobility to be able to find and hang onto industrial employment, which is the family’s sole source of survival. When your industrial employer lays you off work or closes its doors or moves out of town… you and your family no longer have an income with which to pay the rent or buy food. If you get sick, seriously sick or injured, you lose your job in the industrial world and your family starves. It isn’t like having a farm that the rest of the family has at least a chance to keep running while you can’t work.

By the time you yourself and your generation find yourselves sufficiently well off financially to house, feed, clothe, educate, and provide medical and dental care for 6 children to the point that they can survive on their own in the world, you might find yourself too old to raise them. The very least of your worries will be other people’s attitudes about NFP that you deem to be lacking. Hopefully you won’t have so many worries and fears that you too end up drinking yourself into alcoholism in a futile effort to escape them, but beware… alcoholism is generally driven by a high hereditary nutritional requirement for potassium…
and all you have to do to deplete your body of potassium is a long hard day of stressy sweaty work.

If you haven’t got an associate’s degree or a certificate, seriously you need to get on the phone to the dept. of labor and industries or the unemployment office or the local construction trades unions or local electrical utility service and see if you can qualify to at least get into a journeyman/apprentice program for training, certification and licensing as an electrician or lineman. Seriously. You desperately need the certification, the licensing to find legitimate employment and make a decent wage with any hopes whatsoever of supporting a marriage and family and aging parents.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

I fail to see what you’re saying.

Are you suggesting people shouldn’t have more than 2 or 3 kids because of things that might happen? Cause you know, a family with 1 kid might lose the father, and the mother might be very sick, which means the family would starve since they’d have no income.

Preparing for the future is important, but don’t make such a big deal over hypothetical situations. Nobody can predict the future, maybe parents shouldn’t have kids at all, after all, these are pretty hard times.

Btw I do have certification for my electrical training, as well as OSHA training, and soon Core and Level 1 NCCER electrical certification. I just need to get my diploma in paper, as well as my transcripts, and than I can attempt to get a job.

 

[valient_Lucy]

That’s true, but I can also see it with my own eyes. I often see a very dramatic drop in children per family as each generation passes. Most of my relatives have 2-3 children, wheres my grandparents or great-grandparents had 4-8 or more. Most couples I know have fewer than 4, usually 2 or so. Every time I tell people there are 6 kids in my family, I get comments about how big it is, so something is definitely changing.

Two things did change.

1 Child labor laws went into effect. Before the banning of child labor, a child as young as six could work to earn money to help the family.

2 Vaccinations and antibiotics were discovered. During the Industrial Revolution England, a child had a 1 in 2 chance of dying by the age of 6. Look at St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, who lost two of her five children, or St. Therese, who lost 4 of her 8 siblings. Once children stopped dying of diseases, the birth rate dropped. This happened in China in the 1970’s. The country worked to bring down child mortality, and as the mortality rate dropped, the birth rate dropped too. (This was before the one child policy came into effect.)

So, in order to raise birthrates again, we need to do two things.

1 We need to repeal child labor laws and get rid of mandatory schooling, so that children can once again be seen as a source of income for their families.

2 We need to ban the use of vaccinations and stop giving antibiotics to children under the age of 12. As more and more children start dying from polio, measles, and scarlet fever, couples will naturally start having more children to replace the ones that died.

 

[Onegin]

Or Catholic families could just … have more children. ducks

Seriously, sometimes you get the feeling that merely suggesting that couples should consider being open to more children on average is some sort of anathema. Yes, kids are expensive but so is everything and to some extent a little less control and a little more faith is going to play into the mix. Whether you want to ridicule me about that is fine, but it’s the stance that the Catholic Church has traditionally taken and I don’t particularly see any need to deviate from it now just because we live in an arguably more modern and expensive society.

Ultimately, there is peer pressure influencing things as well. I’d imagine that there are a number of Catholic couples out there who are reasonably well-off but don’t want to be seen as “weird” by neighbours who only have 1.2 kids. After all the “big, Catholic family” stigma still sticks in pop culture doesn’t it?

 

[Alexander_Smith]

So, in order to raise birthrates again, we need to do two things.

1 We need to repeal child labor laws and get rid of mandatory schooling, so that children can once again be seen as a source of income for their families.

2 We need to ban the use of vaccinations and stop giving antibiotics to children under the age of 12. As more and more children start dying from polio, measles, and scarlet fever, couples will naturally start having more children to replace the ones that died.

You’re seriously going to make that argument? You don’t think it could be, oh I don’t know, rampant use of ABC and surgical procedures to prevent conception + general perception that children are a burden. The fewer the better.

Or Catholic families could just … have more children. ducks

Seriously, sometimes you get the feeling that merely suggesting that couples should consider being open to more children on average is some sort of anathema. Yes, kids are expensive but so is everything and to some extent a little less control and a little more faith is going to play into the mix. Whether you want to ridicule me about that is fine, but it’s the stance that the Catholic Church has traditionally taken and I don’t particularly see any need to deviate from it now just because we live in an arguably more modern and expensive society.

Ultimately, there is peer pressure influencing things as well. I’d imagine that there are a number of Catholic couples out there who are reasonably well-off but don’t want to be seen as “weird” by neighbours who only have 1.2 kids. After all the “big, Catholic family” stigma still sticks in pop culture doesn’t it?

Thank you! I’m glad to see somebody sees this as well.

I shocks me to think that there are now TWO people on this forum who seem to think that families in the past were larger because the children were more likely to die. I guess you people don’t realize that there are lots of big families today as well.

I’m not saying you have to have a million kids, but all this concern over the “right” time and all is kind of flying in the face of history. People from all walks of life, in all kinds of good and bad situations have been able to get married and have kids, maybe not in the best circumstances, but I’d rather grow up in bad circumstances than not exist at all!

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Or Catholic families could just … have more children. ducks

Seriously, sometimes you get the feeling that merely suggesting that couples should consider being open to more children on average is some sort of anathema. Yes, kids are expensive but so is everything and to some extent a little less control and a little more faith is going to play into the mix. Whether you want to ridicule me about that is fine, but it’s the stance that the Catholic Church has traditionally taken and I don’t particularly see any need to deviate from it now just because we live in an arguably more modern and expensive society.

Ultimately, there is peer pressure influencing things as well. I’d imagine that there are a number of Catholic couples out there who are reasonably well-off but don’t want to be seen as “weird” by neighbours who only have 1.2 kids. After all the “big, Catholic family” stigma still sticks in pop culture doesn’t it?

You really believe Catholic people, who use NFP are influenced by peer pressure in limiting their famlies?

People that shallow obey the Church?

 

[former_Catholic]

I fail to see what you’re saying.

You said that you observed that people are having fewer children, that things had changed a very great deal in society, that you have observed this change in your lifetime of 18 years.
I agree that people are having fewer children, that in the past they generally had more children, but as far fewer children ever survived to adulthood back then, not so much has changed at all in terms of how many children the average couple ends up with in the end. A Queen Victoria or a large family farm might have ended up with 10 surviving children back then, but that didn’t happen in the cities, factory and company towns of wage labor and high rent. Prostitution, syphillis and abortion ran rampant in your grandfather and great-grandfather’s day in the cities and company towns because wage labor men didn’t earn enough to be able to marry, and prostitution was one of the few paying jobs offered widows with children. War, and the lack of labor laws and safety standards created a lot of widows with children. Most of the “orphans” in Catholic orphanages after WWI were not orphans… but their widowed mothers could not earn enough to feed them on their meager wages and long hours.

What has changed is the economic basis of society from agrarian to industrial. In an agrarian society, children are an economic asset. In an industrial society, children are an economic liability. The shift of society from agrarian to industrial is a huge factor that has changed society dramatically. An industrial society requires years of education and training in order to secure employment capable of supporting marriage and family. Women are increasingly marrying later in life because it is obvious to them that they need the years of education and training necessary to secure employment that can support the family in the event of the unemployment, underemployment, illness, or death of the spouse… or simply in the event that unless they are both fully employed they may not earn enough to keep an adequate roof over their heads and support their children (increasingly common these days). When women marry at older ages, their fertility drops and they naturally have fewer children, and when parents have more than one or two children, they’ll not find an apartment to rent… nor a house they can afford to rent or buy within an hour’s commute of the city in which they work.
Perhaps things are different where you live?

Certification is good, a degree is better, but around here there they want experienced journeymen electricians and linemen only or they’ll not even look at you. A whole lot of experienced people are out of work right now as new construction has completely fallen through the floor, but perhaps where you are there is a lot of rebuilding work to be had, hopefully! I sincerely wish you the best of luck finding suitable employment!

 

[Charbeau]

I haven’t posted here in a long time, but the original post really annoyed me.

An unmarried 18 year old man who has no children really doesn’t have a horse in the race when it comes to this conversation. Frankly, the pure ignorance (by circumstance only) of the OP is the only reason that the post would have ever been made in the first place.

I have 3 children under 5. I have a husband who works out of town M-F. Our last child was conceived while trying to avoid while using NFP. At some point the mental health and stability of the parental unit has to be considered. It doesn’t matter if you have buckets of money if the parents are exhausted and teetering on the edge. This is case by case basis - obviously some parents have greater capabilities to handle larger families than other couples - we are not all gifted with identical talents from God after all. It isn’t good for children to grow up sitting in front of a TV because their parents have no time to do much more than keep the household chores juggling along. This is more than economics, it is practicality. Do you have any idea how much laundry 5 people create, especially when cloth diapering is being utilized for cost savings? How much work goes into budgeting, meal planning, cooking and cleaning, teaching and instructing, individual attention given to each child, not to mention just simply trying to keep them alive and out of trouble during their curious toddlerhoods? Childless adults really don’t understand that you have to time when you consume beverages before going into public because trying to juggle three small children (and a stroller) in a public bathroom is really challenging. There is no just running in for one missing ingredient into the grocery store. What takes a single person 10 minutes can take me 45 minutes.

All this is to say, I love and adore my kids but I am tired. And so is my husband. And we are probably going to feel tired for a very long time. And that means that we will use NFP to avoid for the foreseeable future. I’m in awe of really large families but for us I believe it would be irresponsible to have another child right now. Sure it could happen, and we would figure it out but the very idea makes me queasy.

And then there is the marital bond that has to be considered. Yes, sex is a great unifier for married couples and yes, NFP can help a couple space children according to the needs of the family. The Church never promoted a race to have as many children as possible as quickly as possible. Women need to have time to allow their bodies to rebuild and repair after pregnancies and breastfeeding and years of lack of sleep. I have been pregnant or breastfeeding or both since 2005 and I am in no hurry to add another little person to our household. Mentally and physically I need a break.

I know you mean well, but you clearly do not really understand the complexity of the issues surrounding NFP use in marriage at this point. Perhaps in a few years once you’ve gained a wife and a couple kids you’ll have a better capacity for empathy.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

I’m sorry you feel that way about my post, but even more so, I’m sorry that you seem to think of NFP as a matter of experience. The use of NFP is no more complex than the issues of abstinence or pre-martial sex. There is no experience required to learn the Church’s teaching and basic morality on such matters.

The fact is, on subjects of sex in general, people often have the idea that if something seems unfair, there must be a way around it.

For instance, if a couple was physically unable to engage in the marital act, than according to the Church, that couple should not engage in sexual activity until such physical limitations were resolved (I am not speaking of ED or anything). This may seem unfair, but if that couple were to engage in only in sexual activity separate from the act, they would be doing wrong, as their actions would be separated from the purpose, which is procreation.

If you want some good arguments about NFP, go check out the thread about NFP in the Traditional Catholicism sub-forum. The people there make great arguments on both sides, and can explain the possible issues better than I can.

There is no empathy in truth. Truth is absolute. Our perception of what is fair, or unfair has nothing to do with what is actually true.

Oh and considering my own family consists of 6 kids, yeah, I know exactly how much laundry and work in general goes into caring for that many. I understand all the ins and outs of caring for and homeschooling 6 kids. It’s something that takes a lot of love and commitment, and I’m grateful to my parents for doing all that and more.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

The use of NFP is somewhat personal, and really depends on the couple. You couldn’t know what goes on in the heart of a married couple.

Father Corapi has a CD on NFP. It’s really worth listening to…and he explains reasons for NFP.

You know what makes me sad, Alexander? That many Catholics that I know in real life use ABC, have tubal ligation, have had in vitro, have decided that their left over babies could be discarded, are divorced and remarried etc.

I’m also saddened, that my husband and I use NFP because we want to be obedient and faithful to the Church…I’m sad that I drive 20 miles to see my NFP only doctor, and 20 miles to take my NFP classes. Sad that we sacrifice intimacy for the good of our family.

Sad we could still face criticism, because we only have 3 kids.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

The use of NFP is somewhat personal, and really depends on the couple. You couldn’t know what goes on in the heart of a married couple.

Father Corapi has a CD on NFP. It’s really worth listening to…and he explains reasons for NFP.

You know what makes me sad, Alexander? That many Catholics that I know in real life use ABC, have tubal ligation, have had in vitro, have decided that their left over babies could be discarded, are divorced and remarried etc.

I’m also saddened, that my husband and I use NFP because we want to be obedient and faithful to the Church…I’m sad that I drive 20 miles to see my NFP only doctor, and 20 miles to take my NFP classes. Sad that we sacrifice intimacy for the good of our family.

Sad we could still face criticism, because we only have 3 kids.

Only a jerk would criticize you for having 3 kids, but you do realize that you can be obedient to the Church without NFP right? It’s not like you either use ABC or NFP.

 

[invocation]

Originally Posted by invocation
One simply is not allowed to do any of this using “articificial” or “unnatural” means which undermines the freedom of the individuals and thus the relationship of the couple as well.

Since the “this” in my quote referred back to the paragraphs previous, your response here is not much of a response. Obviously if the couple or a member of the couple enters the marriage with the intention of having NO children, despite being physically able, then the Catholic Church considers this grounds for an annulment. But other than this desire to have a child if physically possible, the Church does not set a quota on how many children you have to have in order to be Catholic.

Back to Humanae Vitae, since that is where you should be focusing. The problem, according to Humanae Vitae is that human beings, when it comes to sex, tend to act on impulse, like animals, and without freedom. In other words they are driven by lust. Artificial birth control only reinforces this tendency, the documents argues, because it makes people feel like they can act on impulse and there will be no consequences to their actions. Thus instead of bringing couples closer together, it allows them to avoid any conversation about the significance what they are doing; and instead of being an expression of freedom one acts on instinct and fails to either act like a person or approach the other person as a person.

Notice that this is true even if the couple is NOT using birth control of any sort. If they are not communicating and planning they are falling into the same error. Birth Control simply makes the error easier for some people because the error is not accompanied by one or more children a year.

Instead, says the Church, we want human beings to take rational control of their sexuality and reproduction within marriage. We want free human beings. This requires that the couple communicate with one another about sex, their desires for sex, whether it is appropriate to have sex in certain instances, whether they wish to have a child or another child at this time, and finally how many children they might like to have and when, and ultimately, of course, have some self-discipline. The document makes clear that when the couple has this kind of relationship with one another their own humanity is strengthened because their actions are more in accordance with rational freedom and the union between the couple is strengthened because of the heightened intimacy (in this case, not immediately sexual). The document is also explicitly clear that couples can have sex with one another with the intention to not get pregnant.

So yes, you are right. It is much more complicated than natural or unnatural. I don’t think I suggested otherwise. The focus of Humanae Vitae is on whether the couple, within the intimacy of their sexual relationship, are acting in a manner that furthers or hinders their freedom, both as individuals and as a couple in relation to each other.

 

[former_Catholic]

…Men and women preparing for marriage should be preparing for children as well by anticipating the financial needs and emotional needs of bringing up children, and preparing themselves mentally for that responsibility…

…My father is an alcoholic who has not contributed to the support of my family in years…

…There is no empathy in truth. Truth is absolute. Our perception of what is fair, or unfair has nothing to do with what is actually true…

It looks rather like the truth is that perhaps your own father wasn’t prepared mentally and emotionally to deal with the financial and emotional needs of his own 6 children so very well. I’m sorry.
I’m sure he didn’t start out that way.
I’m sure he didn’t start out with any less ambition, zeal, commitment, youth, strength, and good intentions than you are starting out with in life.

Sometimes marriages fall apart from stress and strain.
Sometimes marriages survive, but spouses fall apart from stress and strain and the neighbors or relatives scold them and tell them that they never had any business having kids in the first place and destroy altogether what little is left of their sense of pride and accomplishment in life.
Sometimes individuals fall apart from stress and strain and curse their own kids for ever having been born. It is a terrible thing to see.
Sometimes they recover and get themselves back together. Sometimes they never do.

You might care to try to sit down with your father sometime and try to find out where things all went wrong for him such that he ended up an alcoholic. Maybe if you can understand how he got to where he is in life, you can learn what to watch out for in order to avoid the same pitfalls. Maybe you’ll be able to learn how to do better.

 

[Irish_Girl_68]

I’m sorry you feel that way about my post, but even more so, I’m sorry that you seem to think of NFP as a matter of experience. The use of NFP is no more complex than the issues of abstinence or pre-martial sex. There is no experience required to learn the Church’s teaching and basic morality on such matters…

…Oh and considering my own family consists of 6 kids, yeah, I know exactly how much laundry and work in general goes into caring for that many. I understand all the ins and outs of caring for and homeschooling 6 kids. It’s something that takes a lot of love and commitment, and I’m grateful to my parents for doing all that and more.

I agree with Church teaching on NFP and thought you had a decent argument until your petty display of “so there” in the last paragraph. It’s great you can cite NFP chapter and verse, but your lack of charity is appalling.

The woman who took exception with your original post has hard-earned experience. What do you have? An opinion. It’s hardly the same thing. At the risk of sounding unkind myself, any attempt at comparing your experience as a child within a large family to those of parents who actually raise children is ridiculous. Such a comparison is an insult to parents and it makes you appear foolish and arrogant.

That said, I wish you all the best, Alexander. Meet a wonderful girl, marry young and have a whole household full of children. After that, please feel free to come back and school us some more.

 

[smithm29]

I’ve obviously taken some issue with a thing or two that Alexander’s said, but I also take issue with the “until you’ve lived it, shut your mouth” argument.

Should you have to be a schizophrenic to offer psychiatric care to one? Does a priest need to go and get married and have kids to offer you advice on how to live a Godly marriage? Do I need to be tempted to have gay sex before I can offer someone advice on how to overcome the temptations to gay sex?

I could go on and on with examples, but I think you get the point. Shooting the messenger is rarely indicative of anything but contempt for the message. If you disagree with what he’s saying, try and point your disagreement in the right place- the message -rather than him.