Sadness over NFP misuse/misunderstanding

[Charbeau]

Shooting the messenger is rarely indicative of anything but contempt for the message. If you disagree with what he’s saying, try and point your disagreement in the right place- the message -rather than him.

Point taken.

This is what I take objection to, and I stand by what I wrote earlier that the addition of children into a marriage and the stress and time and consideration that each of them take for the parents is far MORE than economic. The OP states:

It breaks my heart to see threads on this forum and other forums, from unhappy husbands or wives talking about how their use of NFP is making their marriage difficult or unhappy. IMO A healthy, financially stable couple has no reason to use NFP.

Natural Family Planning should not be to appease immature Catholic couples who view children as an obnoxious byproduct of sex. Men and women preparing for marriage should be preparing for children as well by anticipating the financial needs and emotional needs of bringing up children, and preparing themselves mentally for that responsibility.

The bolded sentence especially lacks perspective that direct experience will bring to him once he begins having his own children. Adding children to a family and keeping the family unit productive, stable and a nurturing environment for the children produced is a large part of the discussion in our household and IMO should be in every family. I do not see children as an obnoxious byproduct of sex, I see them as a blessing and a joy YET I do accept my own limitation and my ability to provide for them in every way that children demand of parents. Being thoughtful about adding children into a family is sensible, not selfish.

Sorry, but I do think an 18 year old single, childless male should find another horse to go sit high upon. I agree with a previous poster, he may be a member of a large family but he is not his sibling’s parent he is their brother and he does not have the responsibility that parenthood entails on his shoulders.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Only a jerk would criticize you for having 3 kids, but you do realize that you can be obedient to the Church without NFP right? It’s not like you either use ABC or NFP.

And you do realize that total abstinence can be a burden too great for some couples?? Right? NFP is allowed by the Church, and it’s between God, the Couple and a Spritual Advisor (if the couple think it’s needed, the SA is NOT a requirement) whether their reasons are grave enough. It’s not up to you. And I, for one, take exception to you pronouncing that any poster here on CA obviously does not have grave enough reasons. YOU. CAN’T. KNOW. THAT.

I think you should be more sad for those couples who choose to reject the Church and contracept. THOSE are the people you should feel bad for. Not those who are trying to live in accordance with the Church within their marriage. Any sin of misusing NFP (if that’s even really possible, abtinence tends to level the playing field) might be one of selfishness…the sin of contracpetion is so much more as each and every act becomes disordered…NFP keeps the act intact, whole, as God intended.

 

[Em_in_FL]

…but you do realize that you can be obedient to the Church without NFP right? It’s not like you either use ABC or NFP.

Everyone here realizes that… probably every Catholic realizes this. How kind of you to educate all of us with your higher knowledge.

Oh and considering my own family consists of 6 kids, yeah, I know exactly how much laundry and work in general goes into caring for that many. I understand all the ins and outs of caring for and homeschooling 6 kids. It’s something that takes a lot of love and commitment, and I’m grateful to my parents for doing all that and more.

Have you ever considered the fact that your family is blessed?
It’s awfully *presumptive *to *assume *that every family is as blessed as you were.

I too came from a relatively “large” family of 4 kids… growing up I thought it was the best thing in the entire world and always wanted a large family myself. I assumed it was no big deal, if we could do it, anyone could…
WHEW… was I wrong… and humbled. Parenthood is NOTHING like being a child.
When I was a child, I used to think like a child… you know the rest of the scripture.

Either A) Consider praying for an increase in empathy for others; or B) Prepare to be humbled later in life.

I’d still love to have a big family - we have 3 kids now and talk every single day about one day having more. We would love that. We ask God for that blessing on a regular basis.

 

[Rence]

Or Catholic families could just … have more children. ducks

Seriously, sometimes you get the feeling that merely suggesting that couples should consider being open to more children on average is some sort of anathema. Yes, kids are expensive but so is everything and to some extent a little less control and a little more faith is going to play into the mix. Whether you want to ridicule me about that is fine, but it’s the stance that the Catholic Church has traditionally taken and I don’t particularly see any need to deviate from it now just because we live in an arguably more modern and expensive society.

Ultimately, there is peer pressure influencing things as well. I’d imagine that there are a number of Catholic couples out there who are reasonably well-off but don’t want to be seen as “weird” by neighbours who only have 1.2 kids. After all the “big, Catholic family” stigma still sticks in pop culture doesn’t it?

I personally always wanted a big family, so did my mom before me. It warms me to see big families. When I worked in a pediatrician’s office, one of the doctors was Jewish and most of his clients were big Jewish families. It always amazed me how together they had it. Some of the families were young and just starting out with 2+ and still going. And a few had 9+. The biggest family before I left the practice had 11 and were pregnant again. Some of the moms worked, some didn’t.

But I think people with big families are called to have big families. I don’t think everyone is the same, for various reasons. As much as I think it disgusting to hear people criticize those who want big families, it irks me when others are pressured to have big families as well.

Growing up in a big city, I have to admit, I do see criticism of big families, but really not so much. I also see criticism of any children being in the world at all, and that was pretty weird to me

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Only a jerk would criticize you for having 3 kids, but you do realize that you can be obedient to the Church without NFP right? It’s not like you either use ABC or NFP.

That much of a burden would solve the misuse of NFP and the low number of priests at one time.

Think about the pre-marriage counseling

“The primary purpose of marriage is not romance or companionship, but children, and lots of them. It is ideal if you have as many children as possible and then remain abstinent for the remainder of your marriage. This will be a very effective teacher of moral as you will have all of the challenges of celibacy added on top of all of the challenges of raising a very large family.”

“Is it too late to enter the priesthood?”

 

[PaulinVA]

I’ve obviously taken some issue with a thing or two that Alexander’s said, but I also take issue with the “until you’ve lived it, shut your mouth” argument.

When my wife and I were married for maybe three years, we tried to volunteer to be involved in marriage prep at our parish. We were politely refused, and told we needed a little more experience. I was miffed. I had been married for THREE WHOLE YEARS? What more was there to know?

Well, in the intervening 24 years, we have buried our first born, had three more children, had major surgery, contracted a chronic disease, had a period of unemployment, taught teenagers to drive eek, sent a child to college. Let me tell you, that’s EXPERIENCE!

As I said downthread, youthful exuberance is great, and young adults should be encouraged to explore what their faith means in practice. But, young adults need to realize that they should be in listen mode for a majority of the time. Faith in practice is only a concept to those who have not experienced it.

 

[Rence]

I’m sorry you feel that way about my post, but even more so, I’m sorry that you seem to think of NFP as a matter of experience. The use of NFP is no more complex than the issues of abstinence or pre-martial sex. There is no experience required to learn the Church’s teaching and basic morality on such matters.

I agree with Charbeau that one needs some family-raising experience before “counseling” or otherwise criticising adults for their life and family decisions. And with all due respect, I wonder if you would be speaking thus to adults face-to-face and in real life. You most certainly do need a little life experience before telling a couple they need to have more children. In fact, regardless of how much experience raising a family one has, it’s a bit out of line to for anyone to tell anyone else what to do unless that anyone is wearing a roman collar. Are you wearing yours today?

The fact is, on subjects of sex in general, people often have the idea that if something seems unfair, there must be a way around it.

For instance, if a couple was physically unable to engage in the marital act, than according to the Church, that couple should not engage in sexual activity until such physical limitations were resolved (I am not speaking of ED or anything). This may seem unfair, but if that couple were to engage in only in sexual activity separate from the act, they would be doing wrong, as their actions would be separated from the purpose, which is procreation.

What are you talking about here? What do you mean physically unable?

There is no empathy in truth. Truth is absolute. Our perception of what is fair, or unfair has nothing to do with what is actually true.

To which brand of truth are you referring? Real life is not absolute and the Church knows this. That’s why according to the CCC and Humanae Vitae, married couples are directed to discern carefully with prayer, and without coersion, and possibly the counsel of their priest, whether or not they should delay or postpone having more children. This is responsible parenting. There is no Q&A or “list of grave reasons”. If the Church as not provided such a list, then it is inappropriate for a layperson to do so. The Church has allowed the individual families to come up with those decisions as described, on their own – as indicated in the guidelines. What is unfair is bringing more children in the world who cannot be cared for, that is what is unfair. Again, it’s called “responsible parenting”.

Oh and considering my own family consists of 6 kids, yeah, I know exactly how much laundry and work in general goes into caring for that many. I understand all the ins and outs of caring for and homeschooling 6 kids. It’s something that takes a lot of love and commitment, and I’m grateful to my parents for doing all that and more.

The fact is, you are not a parent. You are a child. You have no idea what it takes to raise a family. Your experience is limited by your youth and the fact that you are child. There is quite a bit of difference between being a child in a family, and being a parent. Your roles and responsibilities are different.

 

[Onegin]

You really believe Catholic people, who use NFP are influenced by peer pressure in limiting their famlies?

People that shallow obey the Church?

Absolutely they do. We’re all human, even those of us that try to follow Church teaching as best as possible. We all yeild to temptation and just because you are using NFP doesn’t mean that you’ll never be tempted to use it with a contraceptive mentality. If this were the case, the Church would have advocated that ALL married couples utilise NFP as the default rather than the exception when there are serious reasons to do so.

The Church recognises the temptations that NFP presents and therefore, She advocates that it only be used where there is very good reason to do so.

My argument (and the argument that I’ve repeated ad nauseum on the Traditional Catholic Forum topic on this subject) is that the way NFP is marketed today (because, it literally is being “marketed”) in many Catholic parishes creates a false perception that using NFP is virtuous, holy and indeed should be used by all newlywed couples. Whether deliberately or through ignorance, this is a misstatement of what the Catholic Church actually teaches about NFP and, for this reason, I believe that a lot of well-intentioned families come away from these pre-cana marriage prep classes with an entirely incorrect view of what NFP is and when it may legitimately be used to avoid pregnancy.

The word “Providentialism” gets lobbed around as an epiteth even in Catholic circles. Call someone a Providentialist, and you immediately envision a massive family with children running about unsupervised, unclothed and the family in near-poverty attempting to pay for them. I beg to differ - some of the greatest Saints of our Church came from quite large families where there would have been more than enough of a “serious reason” to use NFP. And yet, they didn’t. Because of this, I look up to these families (Theresa of Avila, Pope St. Pius X, etc) as model examples of what the Catholic family is and the bravery it takes to raise a large family. If these families lived in modern times, they would have been snidely referred to as Providentialists as well.

The fact of the matter is the odds are that people with large families ARE going to be ridiculed and scorned more than people with small families. The culture has taught us that 1.2 children is “normal” and the decline in birth rates over the past 50 years has shown us that at least some Catholics are taking this trend to heart.

 

[Onegin]

The fact is, you are not a parent. You are a child. You have no idea what it takes to raise a family. Your experience is limited by your youth and the fact that you are child. There is quite a bit of difference between being a child in a family, and being a parent. Your roles and responsibilities are different.

That’s all well and good, but the things that Alexander is saying have been echoed by many a Traditional Priest. Would you also tell that Priest that he needs to “grow up” before he can dispense with such advice?

It’s not like the viewpoint held by this poster is his alone, which is why addressing the points he is making rather than using ad hominem arguments, is probably going to be more effective and, ultimately, convincing.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Absolutely they do. We’re all human, even those of us that try to follow Church teaching as best as possible. We all yeild to temptation and just because you are using NFP doesn’t mean that you’ll never be tempted to use it with a contraceptive mentality. If this were the case, the Church would have advocated that ALL married couples utilise NFP as the default rather than the exception when there are serious reasons to do so.

The Church recognises the temptations that NFP presents and therefore, She advocates that it only be used where there is very good reason to do so.

My argument (and the argument that I’ve repeated ad nauseum on the Traditional Catholic Forum topic on this subject) is that the way NFP is marketed today (because, it literally is being “marketed”) in many Catholic parishes creates a false perception that using NFP is virtuous, holy and indeed should be used by all newlywed couples. Whether deliberately or through ignorance, this is a misstatement of what the Catholic Church actually teaches about NFP and, for this reason, I believe that a lot of well-intentioned families come away from these pre-cana marriage prep classes with an entirely incorrect view of what NFP is and when it may legitimately be used to avoid pregnancy.

The word “Providentialism” gets lobbed around as an epiteth even in Catholic circles. Call someone a Providentialist, and you immediately envision a massive family with children running about unsupervised, unclothed and the family in near-poverty attempting to pay for them. I beg to differ - some of the greatest Saints of our Church came from quite large families where there would have been more than enough of a “serious reason” to use NFP. And yet, they didn’t. Because of this, I look up to these families (Theresa of Avila, Pope St. Pius X, etc) as model examples of what the Catholic family is and the bravery it takes to raise a large family.

The fact of the matter is the odds are that people with large families ARE going to be ridiculed and scorned more than people with small families. The culture has taught us that 1.2 children is “normal” and the decline in birth rates over the past 50 years has shown us that at least some Catholics are taking this trend to heart.

I would LOVE to meet these types of families you’re talking about.

Of the couples I know at Church who don’t use ABC… which are few and far between as it is… all of them either have or desire to have large families.

Of the couples I know at Church who have 4 or more children - HALF of those have taken surgical measures to no longer have more children.

The NFP classes in my diocese are few and far between… and are never full.

So *where *are these mal-intentioned, selfish couples that you suggest are abusing NFP??
Seriously - where are they?

 

[Onegin]

So *where *are these mal-intentioned, selfish couples that you suggest are abusing NFP??
Seriously - where are they?

Well, from your post, it sounds like the majority parishioners at your parish are pretty confused (or just ignorant of) Catholic teaching on birth control to begin with, so chances are you’re not going to find many people utilising NFP there if they think there is nothing wrong with artificial methods.

So, first, in order to validate your statement, you’d have to collect a selection of Catholics that actually follow the Church’s teaching on birth control and then you’d have to tell me that - out of that entire group - none of those individuals has ever been tempted to utilise NFP with a contraceptive mentality at one point or another.

For purposes of explanation, a contraceptive mentality within the NFP context would be the use of NFP when there is no good reason to avoid pregnancy. At this point, NFP becomes nothing more than “Catholic” contraception and no different than artificial birth control.

I suggest talking to people who do use or have used NFP. As long as there is a way to avoid pregnancy without succumbing to what many view the greater evil of artificial birth control, the temptation to use it without good reason will be there. That’s why the Church has in place strict rules about the use of NFP to avoid and that is why they need to be followed.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

So *where *are these mal-intentioned, selfish couples that you suggest are abusing NFP??
Seriously - where are they?

That is my experience as well. I know it is probably a little extreme, but I don’t know any couple who uses NFP who has fewer than 7 children. The Catholic couples I know who have 1 or 2 children all use ABC.

There has got to be some data backing this up because it is a pretty common experience.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Absolutely they do. We’re all human, even those of us that try to follow Church teaching as best as possible. We all yeild to temptation and just because you are using NFP doesn’t mean that you’ll never be tempted to use it with a contraceptive mentality. If this were the case, the Church would have advocated that ALL married couples utilise NFP as the default rather than the exception when there are serious reasons to do so.

The Church recognises the temptations that NFP presents and therefore, She advocates that it only be used where there is very good reason to do so.

My argument (and the argument that I’ve repeated ad nauseum on the Traditional Catholic Forum topic on this subject) is that the way NFP is marketed today (because, it literally is being “marketed”) in many Catholic parishes creates a false perception that using NFP is virtuous, holy and indeed should be used by all newlywed couples. Whether deliberately or through ignorance, this is a misstatement of what the Catholic Church actually teaches about NFP and, for this reason, I believe that a lot of well-intentioned families come away from these pre-cana marriage prep classes with an entirely incorrect view of what NFP is and when it may legitimately be used to avoid pregnancy.

The word “Providentialism” gets lobbed around as an epiteth even in Catholic circles. Call someone a Providentialist, and you immediately envision a massive family with children running about unsupervised, unclothed and the family in near-poverty attempting to pay for them. I beg to differ - some of the greatest Saints of our Church came from quite large families where there would have been more than enough of a “serious reason” to use NFP. And yet, they didn’t. Because of this, I look up to these families (Theresa of Avila, Pope St. Pius X, etc) as model examples of what the Catholic family is and the bravery it takes to raise a large family. If these families lived in modern times, they would have been snidely referred to as Providentialists as well.

The fact of the matter is the odds are that people with large families ARE going to be ridiculed and scorned more than people with small families. The culture has taught us that 1.2 children is “normal” and the decline in birth rates over the past 50 years has shown us that at least some Catholics are taking this trend to heart.

Considering that the NFP users are in the minority , the teeny tiny minority, I think it’s the non-obedient Catholics that use ABC that you need to worry about.

Perhaps it would be charitable to think that if a couple is using NFP, and there family is small, there could be just reasons.

I know how hard NFP is…I doubt anyone would give up intimacy that often for frivoulous reasons.

 

[Onegin]

This topic raises an interesting point:

Do you all see any moral distinction between the use of artificial birth control and the use of NFP with a contraceptive mentality (i.e. “avoiding” when there is no serious reason to do so)?

Both are sinful, no?

 

[Em_in_FL]

Well, from your post, it sounds like the majority parishioners at your parish are pretty confused (or just ignorant of) Catholic teaching on birth control to begin with, so chances are you’re not going to find many people utilising NFP there if they think there is nothing wrong with artificial methods.

So, first, in order to validate your statement, you’d have to collect a selection of Catholics that actually follow the Church’s teaching on birth control and then you’d have to tell me that - out of that entire group - none of those individuals has ever been tempted to utilise NFP with a contraceptive mentality at one point or another.

For purposes of explanation, a contraceptive mentality within the NFP context would be the use of NFP when there is no good reason to avoid pregnancy. At this point, NFP becomes nothing more than “Catholic” contraception and no different than artificial birth control.

I suggest talking to people who do use or have used NFP. As long as there is a way to avoid pregnancy without succumbing to what many view the greater evil of artificial birth control, the temptation to use it without good reason will be there. That’s why the Church has in place strict rules about the use of NFP to avoid and that is why they need to be followed.

I agree that this CAN happen… theoretically.

But I highly doubt that a couple who is actually going to go through the steps of learning NFP, put it into practice by periodically ABSTAINING and using self-control, and openly communicate these thoughts and feelings with each other, is ACTUALLY falling into this mentality.
If 2 people are so committed to the idea in the first place to make holy choices, then there is a check-and-balance system of two people trying to keep each other holy. The chances that this incorrect mentality would overcome two people who went through the above steps at one point in their marriage… without them succumbing to ABC… is going to be a fairly SLIM percentage.

You’re really going down a judgmental path here.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

Since the “this” in my quote referred back to the paragraphs previous, your response here is not much of a response. Obviously if the couple or a member of the couple enters the marriage with the intention of having NO children, despite being physically able, then the Catholic Church considers this grounds for an annulment. But other than this desire to have a child if physically possible, the Church does not set a quota on how many children you have to have in order to be Catholic.

AFAIK it’s only grounds for annulment if one party desires to have no children, and the other does not know this. Marriage based on lies is wrong.

Instead, says the Church, we want human beings to take rational control of their sexuality and reproduction within marriage. We want free human beings. This requires that the couple communicate with one another about sex, their desires for sex, whether it is appropriate to have sex in certain instances, whether they wish to have a child or another child at this time, and finally how many children they might like to have and when, and ultimately, of course, have some self-discipline. The document makes clear that when the couple has this kind of relationship with one another their own humanity is strengthened because their actions are more in accordance with rational freedom and the union between the couple is strengthened because of the heightened intimacy (in this case, not immediately sexual). The document is also explicitly clear that couples can have sex with one another with the intention to not get pregnant.

Are you trying to say that couples who use NFP are more “responsible” than those who don’t? Because that’s my main problem with NFP proponents, they think it’s better than everything else.

And you do realize that total abstinence can be a burden too great for some couples?? Right? NFP is allowed by the Church, and it’s between God, the Couple and a Spritual Advisor (if the couple think it’s needed, the SA is NOT a requirement) whether their reasons are grave enough. It’s not up to you. And I, for one, take exception to you pronouncing that any poster here on CA obviously does not have grave enough reasons. YOU. CAN’T. KNOW. THAT.

I think you should be more sad for those couples who choose to reject the Church and contracept. THOSE are the people you should feel bad for. Not those who are trying to live in accordance with the Church within their marriage. Any sin of misusing NFP (if that’s even really possible, abtinence tends to level the playing field) might be one of selfishness…the sin of contracpetion is so much more as each and every act becomes disordered…NFP keeps the act intact, whole, as God intended.

I never said anything of the kind! Stop putting words in my mouth. I have no idea what reasons all posters on here have for using NFP, but I do know that NFP can be misused, and quite easily if you’ll take the time to read up on the Church’s teaching on abstinence.

This conversation isn’t about ABC users. I know ABC is a problem, but that wasn’t the point of my post. That’s like saying I shouldn’t protest a war, because abortion is killing more people every year than a war does. I can do both you know.

Everyone here realizes that… probably every Catholic realizes this. How kind of you to educate all of us with your higher knowledge.

Have you ever considered the fact that your family is blessed?
It’s awfully *presumptive *to *assume *that every family is as blessed as you were.

I too came from a relatively “large” family of 4 kids… growing up I thought it was the best thing in the entire world and always wanted a large family myself. I assumed it was no big deal, if we could do it, anyone could…
WHEW… was I wrong… and humbled. Parenthood is NOTHING like being a child.
When I was a child, I used to think like a child… you know the rest of the scripture.

Either A) Consider praying for an increase in empathy for others; or B) Prepare to be humbled later in life.

I’d still love to have a big family - we have 3 kids now and talk every single day about one day having more. We would love that. We ask God for that blessing on a regular basis.

This has nothing to do with empathy. I’m trying to deal with facts here.

No matter how sorry you feel for someone who is in great pain, or who is dying, or is in a coma, I cannot directly kill that person, no matter what. I feel great sympathy for families who deal with such situations, but I have to stick to the truth, and say, NO mercy killing. Am I lacking empathy in such situations? Maybe, but the truth isn’t always easy to deal with.

 

[Em_in_FL]

This topic raises an interesting point:

Do you all see any moral distinction between the use of artificial birth control and the use of NFP with a contraceptive mentality (i.e. “avoiding” when there is no serious reason to do so)?

Both are sinful, no?

Yes, both are sinful.

ABC - is far more common, also physically blocks intimacy, also can induce abortion, blocks (not avoids) procreation, and inhibits true union between the couple.

NFP - does none of the above. It uses periodic abstinence under prayerful consideration. The statistical chances of it being used with this “contraceptive mentality” are minuscule.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I
This has nothing to do with empathy. I’m trying to deal with facts here.

No matter how sorry you feel for someone who is in great pain, or who is dying, or is in a coma, I cannot directly kill that person, no matter what. I feel great sympathy for families who deal with such situations, but I have to stick to the truth, and say, NO mercy killing. Am I lacking empathy in such situations? Maybe, but the truth isn’t always easy to deal with.

Ummm… we’re talking about NFP, not mercy killing… right? I’m awfully confused.
Empathy can be applied to many different situations… limiting it isn’t wise.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I agree that this CAN happen… theoretically.

But I highly doubt that a couple who is actually going to go through the steps of learning NFP, put it into practice by periodically ABSTAINING and using self-control, and openly communicate these thoughts and feelings with each other, is ACTUALLY falling into this mentality.
If 2 people are so committed to the idea in the first place to make holy choices, then there is a check-and-balance system of two people trying to keep each other holy. The chances that this incorrect mentality would overcome two people who went through the above steps at one point in their marriage… without them succumbing to ABC… is going to be a fairly SLIM percentage.

You’re really going down a judgmental path here.

It’s a sacrifice to avoid intimacy!

 

[CountrySinger]

Listening to a teenager give out marital advice is like listening to a homeless man give out investment advice. At least a priest has training and life experience.

Plus, we can’t know a couple’s exact situation. I know if I were married, I couldn’t handle 12 kids. I would go insane. Or try to start a family singing group. And if I had to be married and celibate, I would go insane as well.

And isn’t the purpose of sex twofold: to unite a couple and make babies? It’s not just one or the other. Both are important. That is why IVF is immoral. If sex was just for babies, then IVF would be A-Okay!