Sadness over NFP misuse/misunderstanding

[NoAvailableName]

As a non-Catholic on here with no dog in the fight, my understanding of Catholicism leads me to believe that Alexander Smith and Onegin are basically right. However, this teaching of the Catholic Church is difficult and has struck a nerve with the married folks here, the same way a verse like Matthew 19:12 probably would.

My father (Catholic) was one of 11 kids (a 12th was stillborn) who all survived to adulthood and lead normal, healthy, happy, and productive lives. Their parents were also quite happy. My grandmother drank too much and so only made it to age 80, but my grandfather managed to make it until 95, when he fell off a chair while trying to change his clock for daylight savings time.

After listening to some of the posters here, you would think the above is impossible. Some have argued that you should only have lots of kids when the earlier ones have died off, or that it is impossible to do a good job raising many kids.

The OP’s detractors seem to fall into two inconsistent camps. One camp seems to think it is not reasonable to have a lot of kids in this day and age, and the other camp has a completely different view – that most people practicing NFP do have larger families.

Is it not a grave sin to intentionally misrepresent the teachings of the Catholic Church? It appears to be a popular one around here though, and not just on the issue of NFP.

Matthew 5:19
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

ABC interferes with the natural act, it does something to the act to make it sterile. NFP doesn’t interfere with the natural act. The act is completed as God intended. Whether the woman is naturally fertile or infertile or not, the ACT is OPEN to PROCREATION. ABC is never OPEN to PROCREATION as it’s very use is to BLOCK PROCREATION.

While it is theoretically possible to use NFP in a selfish way, it is NOT the same thing as contraception. NFP isn’t some easy, pie in the sky, thing to follow. If spacing of babies is needed, then it is sacraficial to not have relations. The use of NFP CAN help couples grow in virtue–doesn’t all sacrifice do this?

Good explanation.

It should be noted that natural breastfeeding also spaces babies. That’s how all the kids in my family are spaced 2-3 years apart.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Good explanation.

It should be noted that natural breastfeeding also spaces babies. That’s how all the kids in my family are spaced 2-3 years apart.

Yes, “Ecological Breastfeeding” is part of most NFP classes…

So, your family did use NFP…

 

[Momofmyangels]

Yes you read it wrong, and I forgive you.

The CHANCES of this happening in this day and age where we are inundated by ABC is very very small (“laughably” small)…

I’m arguing that those who actually make the HOLY choice of using NFP in the first place are *RARELY *going to be using it with a “contraceptive mentality”… because they are some of the “minuscule few” (“laughably small” percentage) that make this choice in the first place… those with the most well-formed conscience anyway.

Hope that clarifies?

Yes it does and thank you. It is sad though that this thinking is not the norm, but rather the standard.

 

[Irish_Girl_68]

To add to my previous comments. This is something that a think some of you should consider:

A couple gets married, has 5 kids, and then uses NFP to avoid pregnancy for the rest of their married life.

Is there anything wrong with this?

I don’t think there’s any “right” answer here. The wonderful thing about NFP (unlike ABC) is that it is not a cookie-cutter approach. It allows you as a couple to prayerfully consider what is and is not right for your family. Some parents can handle many children, others can not. And that’s for the couple in prayer with God to decide.

Speculating what families might be abusing NFP (I too question the likelihood of that) by virtue or their family size is silly. As an example? I loved NFP and still think it’s great. My husband and I used it with the express purpose of conception. My daughter and son are the result. Because of medical complications, they are the only children we can have. NFP helped make their presence in our lives possible and I’m grateful for it. But, truly, it’s dangerous footing to presume someone is or isn’t a faithful Catholic by virtue or the family size. I don’t think it makes anyone a better person, parent or Catholic whether they have two kids or twelve.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

You should at least be out of your teens and have had some real life experience, wouldn’t you agree?

The poster has no life experience other than childhood, and is in the thows of idealist and arrogant youth. I’ve been there myself. He has not, however, been where I stand. I know more about life than he.

I’m sorry you feel this way. Does this mean I should not talk about the evils of pre-marital sex, incest, adultry, sexual sins in marriage, or anything else like that until I am married and have my own kids?

Age and experience is great, but I find it offensive that so many of you are concerned about being talked to about this matter by an 18 year old, when in fact, most anyone can learn the teachings of the Church, and make arguments on this subject.

Yes, “Ecological Breastfeeding” is part of most NFP classes…

So, your family did use NFP…

Um no. My mom just did what she thought was natural and a healthy way to care for her kids. She didn’t take classes, or receive instructions. Such breastfeeding has been used for ages, and nobody had to have it taught to them.

As a non-Catholic on here with no dog in the fight, my understanding of Catholicism leads me to believe that Alexander Smith and Onegin are basically right. However, this teaching of the Catholic Church is difficult and has struck a nerve with the married folks here, the same way a verse like Matthew 19:12 probably would.

My father (Catholic) was one of 11 kids (a 12th was stillborn) who all survived to adulthood and lead normal, healthy, happy, and productive lives. Their parents were also quite happy. My grandmother drank too much and so only made it to age 80, but my grandfather managed to make it until 95, when he fell off a chair while trying to change his clock for daylight savings time.

After listening to some of the posters here, you would think the above is impossible. Some have argued that you should only have lots of kids when the earlier ones have died off, or that it is impossible to do a good job raising many kids.

The OP’s detractors seem to fall into two inconsistent camps. One camp seems to think it is not reasonable to have a lot of kids in this day and age, and the other camp has a completely different view – that most people practicing NFP do have larger families.

Is it not a grave sin to intentionally misrepresent the teachings of the Catholic Church? It appears to be a popular one around here though, and not just on the issue of NFP.

Matthew 5:19
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Thank you for your post. I really appreciate your points.

To add to my previous comments. This is something that a think some of you should consider:

A couple gets married, has 5 kids, and then uses NFP to avoid pregnancy for the rest of their married life.

Is there anything wrong with this?

I don’t think there’s any “right” answer here. The wonderful thing about NFP (unlike ABC) is that it is not a cookie-cutter approach. It allows you as a couple to prayerfully consider what is and is not right for your family. Some parents can handle many children, others can not. And that’s for the couple in prayer with God to decide.

Speculating what families might be abusing NFP (I too question the likelihood of that) by virtue or their family size is silly. As an example? I loved NFP and still think it’s great. My husband and I used it with the express purpose of conception. My daughter and son are the result. Because of medical complications, they are the only children we can have. NFP helped make their presence in our lives possible and I’m grateful for it. But, truly, it’s dangerous footing to presume someone is or isn’t a faithful Catholic by virtue or the family size. I don’t think it makes anyone a better person, parent or Catholic whether they have two kids or twelve.

I’m amazed you would think there is no “right” answer!

It is hard to accept that a married couple may have to abstain permanently from the marital act at some point in their marriage, but that is the truth. From what I’ve been taught, when a couple of too old to have children anymore, they should abstain. Continuing intimacy with the intention of avoiding children altogether doesn’t exactly scream “open to life”.

 

[PaulinVA]

But, truly, it’s dangerous footing to presume someone is or isn’t a faithful Catholic by virtue or the family size. I don’t think it makes anyone a better person, parent or Catholic whether they have two kids or twelve.

No, just more tired…

Yes, you have no idea what’s going on with that couple beside you at Mass. You also have to remember that we are all trying to grow in holiness. We hopefully are not who we will be in twenty years. Hopefully, we will be a better person, a more holy person.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

To add to my previous comments. This is something that a think some of you should consider:

A couple gets married, has 5 kids, and then uses NFP to avoid pregnancy for the rest of their married life.

Is there anything wrong with this?

I don’t think there’s any “right” answer here. The wonderful thing about NFP (unlike ABC) is that it is not a cookie-cutter approach. It allows you as a couple to prayerfully consider what is and is not right for your family. Some parents can handle many children, others can not. And that’s for the couple in prayer with God to decide.

Speculating what families might be abusing NFP (I too question the likelihood of that) by virtue or their family size is silly. As an example? I loved NFP and still think it’s great. My husband and I used it with the express purpose of conception. My daughter and son are the result. Because of medical complications, they are the only children we can have. NFP helped make their presence in our lives possible and I’m grateful for it. But, truly, it’s dangerous footing to presume someone is or isn’t a faithful Catholic by virtue or the family size. I don’t think it makes anyone a better person, parent or Catholic whether they have two kids or twelve.

I agree. My parents only had 2, 7 years apart…and never contracepted. They would have loved more.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

No, just more tired…

Yes, you have no idea what’s going on with that couple beside you at Mass. You also have to remember that we are all trying to grow in holiness. We hopefully are not who we will be in twenty years. Hopefully, we will be a better person, a more holy person.

I would never presume to know anyone’s soul by the number of children in their family. I have good friends who are sterile, but God can work miracles even in such situations as that.

I find it odd that you folks are suddenly assuming that I have an eye out for NFP abusing families or something. We should stay on the issue, not talk about how we shouldn’t judge others. This isn’t about one family, it’s a discussion on general use of NFP.

 

[PaulinVA]

Age and experience is great, but I find it offensive that so many of you are concerned about being talked to about this matter by an 18 year old, when in fact, most anyone can learn the teachings of the Church, and make arguments on this subject.

I’m glad you addressed this head on. I was being circumspect in previous posts, but here goes…

All of the adults who are participating in this thread have been, at one time, 18. We remember 18, and how we thought we knew everything and actually we knew very little.

If you were pontificating about capital punishment, feeding the poor, developing a VBS program, your opinion would be much more welcomed. But you are posting on a subject that you know nothing about and we do. You are posting on a subject that married people agonize over.

I am glad you are interested in this. I have a son your age, a little older. But, this is the one subject that knowing what the Church teaches and understanding the context to be able really understand what the Church teaches are different.

So, you should listen and learn instead of indict.

 

[Jea9]

I’m amazed you would think there is no “right” answer!

It is hard to accept that a married couple may have to abstain permanently from the marital act at some point in their marriage, but that is the truth. From what I’ve been taught, when a couple of too old to have children anymore, they should abstain. Continuing intimacy with the intention of avoiding children altogether doesn’t exactly scream “open to life”.

I haven’t posted anything in here, but have been following. No one has addressed this part of your post yet, and I think someone needs to. WHERE have you learned this?! You’re saying that you’ve read that a menopausal woman is no longer allowed to have marital relations with her husband? I don’t think you understand the concept of being open to life. It does not mean that every act must result in a child, but that each, individual act is ORDERED towards life. Meaning nothing is stopping this. Do you think that when a woman is pregnant that a couple is not allowed to engage in the marital act? Please tell me I’m reading you wrong here.

For what it’s worth, my husband and I are almost 10 months married and expecting our first baby any day (seriously ANY day!!). We have decided that for us, we will leave our family planning in God’s hands, as in we are not using NFP and only trusting in God. We are blessed that we are in a place that we are comfortable with doing this and know that not every couple is. We would never presume anything about another’s situation.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

I’m glad you addressed this head on. I was being circumspect in previous posts, but here goes…

All of the adults who are participating in this thread have been, at one time, 18. We remember 18, and how we thought we knew everything and actually we knew very little.

If you were pontificating about capital punishment, feeding the poor, developing a VBS program, your opinion would be much more welcomed. But you are posting on a subject that you know nothing about and we do. You are posting on a subject that married people agonize over.

I am glad you are interested in this. I have a son your age, a little older. But, this is the one subject that knowing what the Church teaches and understanding the context to be able really understand what the Church teaches are different.

So, you should listen and learn instead of indict.

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, but seems more a run-around than a straight answer.

It’s easy to tell someone they just “don’t understand” and tell them to wait until they get older. It’s harder to actually argue against that person, and really dig deep into the teachings of the Church to find the truth.

As for “pontificating”, sorry if I sound preachy, but you sound a bit condescending, so I guess we’re even.

 

[Irish_Girl_68]

I’m amazed you would think there is no “right” answer!

It is hard to accept that a married couple may have to abstain permanently from the marital act at some point in their marriage, but that is the truth. From what I’ve been taught, when a couple of too old to have children anymore, they should abstain. Continuing intimacy with the intention of avoiding children altogether doesn’t exactly scream “open to life”.

Then be “amazed” Alexander! I stand by what I said.

Using your argument above, any woman over menopause age should not be having sex. Is this correct or did you just word this poorly? Please clarify.

The last line of your post again shows your lack of understanding. There may be good, valid reasons to “avoid children altogether.” This argument could be true whether a couple is 24 or 44. Either way, it isn’t for you to decide.

 

[Bookcat]

Compendium of the Cathechism: (short and sweet)

1. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

Then be “amazed” Alexander! I stand by what I said.

Using your argument above, any woman over menopause age should not be having sex. Is this correct or did you just word this poorly? Please clarify.

The last line of your post again shows your lack of understanding. There may be good, valid reasons to “avoid children altogether.” This argument could be true whether a couple is 24 or 44. Either way, it isn’t for you to decide.

It was in fact badly worded. If a couple continues to engage in the martial act, they must continue to be open to life, no matter their age. Using NFP, and engaging in the act ONLY on infertile days permanently seems to be really stretching being “open to life.”

Compendium of the Cathechism: (short and sweet)

1. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

Thanks for posting this.

Note that this is about the regulation of births, not the complete cessation of births, as in, a couple that decides they don’t want anymore children, period.

Regulation as in, management, control, not halt, cancel, stop.

 

[smallcat]

It is hard to accept that a married couple may have to abstain permanently from the marital act at some point in their marriage, but that is the truth. From what I’ve been taught, when a couple of too old to have children anymore, they should abstain. Continuing intimacy with the intention of avoiding children altogether doesn’t exactly scream “open to life”.

What now??? I was all ready to chalk up your attitude to earnest over-zealousness, but this goes beyond. By your logic, couples who know they are infertile (women who have had hysterectomies, post-menopausal women, men status post hormone treatments for prostate cancer…) should not have marital relations or, for that matter, even marry in the first place if they know they are infertile. This is SO NOT CHURCH TEACHING! Please, educate yourself on this matter before you misrepresent what our faith asks of us.

 

[PaulinVA]

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, but seems more a run-around than a straight answer.

No, it was straight and to the point.

It’s easy to tell someone they just “don’t understand” and tell them to wait until they get older. It’s harder to actually argue against that person, and really dig deep into the teachings of the Church to find the truth.

Ah, strawman! I actually am, in other posts, addressing your points. In this post, I addressed your points.

As for “pontificating”, sorry if I sound preachy, but you sound a bit condescending, so I guess we’re even.

It’s really hard to not sound condescending in this situation - but it’s not a contest so there are no winners or losers or getting even. I give you chutzpa points for wading in here and taking on the married adults. As I said, it’s good you’re interested in this. But some of the things you have posted would sound preachy coming from me.

 

[choose_to_love]

IMO, Irish girl has it correct. One cannot posit a hypothetical like the one proposed (5 kids and then NFP) and have it apply to all couples. It leaves out the most critical aspect of NFP - - to what is God calling a particular couple at that point in their marriage? That is up to the couple to determine through prayer and application of the principles of responsible parenthood set forth in HV - - what is the couple’s responsibility to God, the other spouse, the existing family, and to society? If serious reasons to postpone pregnancy exist, and continue to exist, then it is proper to continue to use NFP to so postpone the next pregnancy. HV specifically mentions that responsible parenthood can include the indefinite postponement of pregnancy if valid reasons exist.

As far as the message vs. messenger, I think we actually all do agree on the principles, and anyone can know the principles. However, the tone ('being talked to about this matter by an 18 year old" emphasis added}, as opposed to talking with), the implicit assumptions (judgment?) that small families cannot have valid reasons, and the straw men (jcouples view children as obnoxious byproduct of sex) appear to me to be the issues.

AS, where have you been taught that when a couple is too old for more children, they should abstain permanently? What are your sources? Again, “ordered” to life may be a more accurate description of the natural law in this area.

 

[Jea9]

It was in fact badly worded. If a couple continues to engage in the martial act, they must continue to be open to life, no matter their age. Using NFP, and engaging in the act ONLY on infertile days permanently seems to be really stretching being “open to life.”

No person post-menopausal is going to practice periodic incontinence unless they are doing it to become more holy. And yes, periodic incontinence can increase holiness and can be recommended. They will not continue practicing NFP if they cannot have children. I don’t know why you think they would.

 

[Charbeau]

For what it’s worth, my husband and I are almost 10 months married and expecting our first baby any day (seriously ANY day!!). We have decided that for us, we will leave our family planning in God’s hands, as in we are not using NFP and only trusting in God. We are blessed that we are in a place that we are comfortable with doing this and know that not every couple is. We would never presume anything about another’s situation.

And I hope you understand that what some of us are suggesting is that it is easy to make that choice prior to having any children (even though you will have one any day now - congrats!). You just don’t know yet what your first, second, third, etc. child will require of you. It is easy to think that you will never utilize NFP to space children but you may. You could have a child with serious learning disabilities, allergies, autism, reflux, a child who fights sleep for years - meaning you won’t be sleeping much either - and so on. I have faced so many situations that I never even contemplated during my first pregnancy! I love and adore my children but the children I have right now are my priority, not the ones I will conceive in the future. I have to be cognizant of their needs constantly and provide for them constantly and sometimes that means delaying the arrival of another child based on present circumstances.

I think it is a wonderful goal but do not feel like you’ve failed later on if you decide you need to utilize NFP to space your children a bit down the road.

Congratulations again! Welcome to parenthood!