Sadness over NFP misuse/misunderstanding

[Red_Meg]

Now I can see where you’re gaining your perspective…

It has interesting points, but I prefer to go directly to the SOURCE of the teachings of the faith rather than someone’s opinion website.

Bingo. It’s two guys’ interpretation of what the Church teaches. It offers two paraphrases of what Pope Pius XII (apparently the last pope to speak on such matters!) said on the issue with no citations or links.

I’m also still trying to grasp the nuance here of objecting to a couple needing, at some point in their marriage, to use NFP for what they anticipate to be the remainder of the wife’s fertile years, with all the usual caveats about just cause, etc. As plenty of people have previously noted, there can be pressing medical reasons why a woman needs to STOP having more babies before she hits menopause. Barring a miraculous cure, that STOP would be presumed to be permanent. I’m at a loss to understand why the OP feels that this circumstance would be a misuse of NFP and that the couple at this point needs to simply abstain…

Margaret

 

[Alexander_Smith]

Bingo. It’s two guys’ interpretation of what the Church teaches. It offers two paraphrases of what Pope Pius XII (apparently the last pope to speak on such matters!) said on the issue with no citations or links.

I’m also still trying to grasp the nuance here of objecting to a couple needing, at some point in their marriage, to use NFP for what they anticipate to be the remainder of the wife’s fertile years, with all the usual caveats about just cause, etc. As plenty of people have previously noted, there can be pressing medical reasons why a woman needs to STOP having more babies before she hits menopause. Barring a miraculous cure, that STOP would be presumed to be permanent. I’m at a loss to understand why the OP feels that this circumstance would be a misuse of NFP and that the couple at this point needs to simply abstain…

Margaret

NFP is approved for the use of regulation of childbirth. Is it also approved for the use of purposefully avoiding pregnancy for the rest of your married life? Again that seems to be the opposite of “open to life.”

Don’t you care about the actual restrictions on NFP, or are you only concerned with making sure every Catholic couple uses it?

Is there anything wrong with a couple using NFP from the get-go, avoiding all fertile days, and maintaining that use for their entire lives? Entirely hypothetical of course, this almost certainly wouldn’t happen, but I’d like to hear opinions on this matter.

 

[jilly4ski]

NFP is approved for the use of regulation of childbirth. Is it also approved for the use of purposefully avoiding pregnancy for the rest of your married life? Again that seems to be the opposite of “open to life.”

Don’t you care about the actual restrictions on NFP, or are you only concerned with making sure every Catholic couple uses it?

This is not the church’s understanding of “open to life” if fact the church does not use “open to life,” which is an erroneous phrase with no meaning, but rather “ordered towards procreation” which has nothing to do with timing of the marital relations but rather with how they are completed.

Indeed a severe medical condition would most likely be a grave/serious/just reason to avoid pregnancy and therefore the use of NFP would be moral for that couple. I don’t know how you could judge for a couple that their medical condition does not constitute a grave reason.

 

[Jennifer_J]

NFP is approved for the use of regulation of childbirth. Is it also approved for the use of purposefully avoiding pregnancy for the rest of your married life? Again that seems to be the opposite of “open to life.”

Don’t you care about the actual restrictions on NFP, or are you only concerned with making sure every Catholic couple uses it?

Is there anything wrong with a couple using NFP from the get-go, avoiding all fertile days, and maintaining that use for their entire lives? Entirely hypothetical of course, this almost certainly wouldn’t happen, but I’d like to hear opinions on this matter.

If there is a serious/just/grave reason that calls for the use of NFP, I’m not sure there is a time limit on it? Did you read that somewhere? Prayerful consideration by the couple is essential, but it is not out of the realm of possiblity that a serious health concern, or financial issues or political (think China) reasons that might cause a couple to need to use NFP for an extended period of time.

If the couple enters marriage with no intention of having children, then that is a problem and obviously against the vows they took. If a married couple encounters serious/grave/just reasons to avoid indefinately, then that’s what they need to do–either via NFP or total abstinance. The only restriction on NFP is that there are grave/serious/just reasons for regulating births.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

This is not the church’s understanding of “open to life” if fact the church does not use “open to life,” which is an erroneous phrase with no meaning, but rather “ordered towards procreation” which has nothing to do with timing of the marital relations but rather with how they are completed.

Indeed a severe medical condition would most likely be a grave/serious/just reason to avoid pregnancy and therefore the use of NFP would be moral for that couple. I don’t know how you could judge for a couple that their medical condition does not constitute a grave reason.

I indicated no medical reason and you know that. Please answer my question as I asked it.

 

[whm]

If there is a serious/just/grave reason that calls for the use of NFP, I’m not sure there is a time limit on it? Did you read that somewhere? Prayerful consideration by the couple is essential, but it is not out of the realm of possiblity that a serious health concern, or financial issues or political (think China) reasons that might cause a couple to need to use NFP for an extended period of time.

Bring up China is a very good point (I assume you are referring to forced abortion). The CCC is written for the entire Church. Serious financial reasons for example in the US and Western Europe can be very different then places like Mexico, Africa, Haiti etc. I think consulting a faithful priest is an important step if considering NFP.

If the couple enters marriage with no intention of having children, then that is a problem and obviously against the vows they took. If a married couple encounters serious/grave/just reasons to avoid indefinately, then that’s what they need to do–either via NFP or total abstinance. The only restriction on NFP is that there are grave/serious/just reasons for regulating births.

I would add mutual consent to the list of restrictions as well.

 

[Momofmyangels]

Is there anything wrong with a couple using NFP from the get-go, avoiding all fertile days, and maintaining that use for their entire lives? Entirely hypothetical of course, this almost certainly wouldn’t happen, but I’d like to hear opinions on this matter.

Yes, there is absolutely everything wrong with a couple entering into marriage with the intention of never having children. During the sacrament of marriage, each person VOWS to accept the children God sends to them. Deliberately lying in the midst of receiving a sacrament, in front of family, friends, the priest and most importantly God is unquestionably wrong. If there is such an intention between two people, then the sacrament of marriage is NOT for them.

 

[Red_Meg]

I feel like we’re dancing in circles here.

Scenario: a woman has sustained such damage to her uterus from repeated c-sections over the years that she is advised by her daily-Mass-going obstetrician to not have any more children. Barring the miraculous healing of her uterine scars, the woman will need to avoid having any more babies. Ever.

Is it your assertion that this woman must now permanently abstain from marital relations?

My understanding of what the Church teaches is that she could morally make use of NFP under these circumstances, even though though her goal is to purposefully avoid pregnancy for the rest of her married life.

I’m not trying to be argumentative here, really. I just want to be very clear on what you are saying.

Best,

Margaret

PS For the record, I’ve had nine babies in eighteen years of marriage, not counting three miscarriages. I’m not trying to “make sure every Catholic couple uses it.”

 

[Alexander_Smith]

Yes, there is absolutely everything wrong with a couple entering into marriage with the intention of never having children. During the sacrament of marriage, each person VOWS to accept the children God sends to them. Deliberately lying in the midst of receiving a sacrament, in front of family, friends, the priest and most importantly God is unquestionably wrong. If there is such an intention between two people, then the sacrament of marriage is NOT for them.

The let’s take it one step further, and say, what’s wrong with a couple using NFP from the beginning of their marriage, and thinking “If God wants to give us kids, he’ll do it even if we do avoid all days but green days”.

Again, playing devil’s advocate, I already know what’s wrong with this, and how wrong it would be to enter into marriage with no intention of having kids.

People really need to read what Pope Pius XII said about NFP, that is more concrete, and may help. He mentioned that a problem with NFP is it’s indiscriminate use by couples, since they can still enjoy sexual intimacy, while avoiding children. There is temptation in that. That is why I say, ask your priest! Don’t just start using because you subjectively believe your situation warrants it, ask somebody else, a priest if possible.

 

[whm]

Yes, there is absolutely everything wrong with a couple entering into marriage with the intention of never having children. During the sacrament of marriage, each person VOWS to accept the children God sends to them. Deliberately lying in the midst of receiving a sacrament, in front of family, friends, the priest and most importantly God is unquestionably wrong. If there is such an intention between two people, then the sacrament of marriage is NOT for them.

Consummated marriages I agree. Josephite marriages require special permission, I believe from the Holy See, but historically there have been valid Josephite marriages. Certainly at least 1 There are completely different from NFP marriages.

 

[Julianna]

What now??? I was all ready to chalk up your attitude to earnest over-zealousness, but this goes beyond. By your logic, couples who know they are infertile (women who have had hysterectomies, post-menopausal women, men status post hormone treatments for prostate cancer…) should not have marital relations or, for that matter, even marry in the first place if they know they are infertile. This is SO NOT CHURCH TEACHING! Please, educate yourself on this matter before you misrepresent what our faith asks of us.

I got this far and just about fell over. Does the OP really think this? I am past child bearing age and NFP is no longer an issue.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I’m sort of curious on how refraining from sex is sinful, so I looked up how to examine one’s conscience for confession…

Sexual sins fall under the 6th and 9th commandments…

SIXTH COMMANDMENT
“You shall not commit adultery.” (Ex 20:14) “You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.” (Ex 20:17)

Note: In the area of deliberate sexual sins listed below, all are mortal sins if there is sufficient reflection and full consent of the will. “No fornicators, idolaters, or adulterers, no sodomites,… will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Cor 6:9-10) “Anyone who looks lustfully at a woman has already committed adultery with her in his thoughts.” (Mt 5:28)

Did I willfully entertain impure thoughts or desires?
Did I use impure or suggestive words? Tell impure stories? Listen to them?
Did I deliberately look at impure TV, videos, plays, pictures or movies? Or deliberately read impure materials?
Did I commit impure acts by myself (masturbation)?
Did I commit impure acts with another - fornication (premarital sex), adultery (sex with a married person)?
Did I practice artificial birth control (by pills, device, withdrawal)?
Did I marry or advise anyone to marry outside the Church?
Did I avoid the occasions of impurity?
Did I try to control my thoughts?
Did I engage in homosexual activity?
Did I respect all members of the opposite sex, or have I thought of other people as objects?
Did I or my spouse have sterilization done?
Did I abuse my marriage rights

Artificial contraception is the sin.

Also sinful is abuse of marriage rights. Does NFP abuse marriage rights? I would think, as long as the marital act is ordered, there is no abuse…

scborromeo.org/confess.htm

 

[whm]

I feel like we’re dancing in circles here.

Scenario: a woman has sustained such damage to her uterus from repeated c-sections over the years that she is advised by her daily-Mass-going obstetrician to not have any more children. Barring the miraculous healing of her uterine scars, the woman will need to avoid having any more babies. Ever.

Is it your assertion that this woman must now permanently abstain from marital relations?

My understanding of what the Church teaches is that she could morally make use of NFP under these circumstances, even though though her goal is to purposefully avoid pregnancy for the rest of her married life.

I’m not trying to be argumentative here, really. I just want to be very clear on what you are saying.

Best,

Margaret

PS For the record, I’ve had nine babies in eighteen years of marriage, not counting three miscarriages. I’m not trying to “make sure every Catholic couple uses it.”

Hi Margaret (I love that name! = my mom’s name)

I would say that abstinence is best, I couldn’t think of putting my wife in danger. If abstinence is not possible due to potential mortal sin then, in the clearly “grave” situation then NFP would be acceptable. A risk I wouldn’t take with my wife. The thing that I got from reading the older material on these subjects (such as Pius XXII letter to midwives and St. Thomas Aquinus) was the sense that mortal sin is the worst outcome possible.

Have you heard of St. Gianni? This example reminds me of her story.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

I got this far and just about fell over. Does the OP really think this? I am past child bearing age and NFP is no longer an issue.

No of course I do not think this. I have tried to center my entire argument around the teachings of the Church, and I know full and well what the Church teaches about people who are sterile or have other medical problems or situations that would unlikely or incapable of having children.

 

[Julianna]

No of course I do not think this. I have tried to center my entire argument around the teachings of the Church, and I know full and well what the Church teaches about people who are sterile or have other medical problems or situations that would unlikely or incapable of having children.

Sorry…I must have not read far enough for the answer yet. Did you answer what the Church teaches for such couples?

 

[PaulinVA]

Can all posters agree that the Church allows NFP use to regulate births (maybe for the rest of the marriage) for grave/serious/just reasons?

Can all posters agree that some are worried that NFP could be abused.

Can all posters agree that they can not judge a couple’s reasons?

Great, let’s hug, sing Kumbaya, and move on to other threads.

:grouphug:

 

[Momofmyangels]

The let’s take it one step further, and say, what’s wrong with a couple using NFP from the beginning of their marriage, and thinking “If God wants to give us kids, he’ll do it even if we do avoid all days but green days”.

Again, playing devil’s advocate, I already know what’s wrong with this, and how wrong it would be to enter into marriage with no intention of having kids.

People really need to read what Pope Pius XII said about NFP, that is more concrete, and may help. He mentioned that a problem with NFP is it’s indiscriminate use by couples, since they can still enjoy sexual intimacy, while avoiding children. There is temptation in that. That is why I say, ask your priest! Don’t just start using because you subjectively believe your situation warrants it, ask somebody else, a priest if possible.

Because they would then be taking the information that NFP provides, ie knowing the fertile vs.the infertile days and using that to achieve the same purpose. They are not “leaving it up to God”, they are avoiding pregnancy pure and simple. They are still entering marriage with the intention of having no children. Regardless how they achieve that, it is contrary to what the sacrament of marriage was instituted for.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

Sorry…I must have not read far enough for the answer yet. Did you answer what the Church teaches for such couples?

They can be married with no restrictions.

Can all posters agree that the Church allows NFP use to regulate births (maybe for the rest of the marriage) for grave/serious/just reasons?

Can all posters agree that some are worried that NFP could be abused.

Can all posters agree that they can not judge a couple’s reasons?

Great, let’s hug, sing Kumbaya, and move on to other threads.

:grouphug:

Regulating births is different from saying “No” to anymore children.

If you think about it like this, a couple that practices NFP (avoidance) deliberately works against the primary point of sexual intercourse, while still enjoying the secondary benefits.

This is allowed by the Church for serious reasons, but it seems like it’s being pushed indiscriminately with no regard to the rest of the Church’s teachings on family life.

 

[whm]

I’m sort of curious on how refraining from sex is sinful, so I looked up how to examine one’s conscience for confession…

Sexual sins fall under the 6th and 9th commandments…

Artificial contraception is the sin.

Also sinful is abuse of marriage rights. Does NFP abuse marriage rights? I would think, as long as the marital act is ordered, there is no abuse…

It can if a spouse does not have a grave reason to refuse relations requested by the other spouse. One spouse can not decide to us NFP on their own.

The “marriage rights” among other things, refers to both the marriage debt (St Paul’s term) and abusive requesting of the marriage debt. The marriage debt in more modern terms means the right to the body.

 

[jilly4ski]

I indicated no medical reason and you know that. Please answer my question as I asked it.

I was responding to your response to RedMeg. A medical reason would be a grave reason to use NFP for the rest of the couples married life, and they are not sinning or misusing NFP or the church’s teaching by using it thus.There might also be other grave/just/serious reasons to use NFP for the rest of the couples married life. The only restrictions on NFP as outlined in HV are having a grave/serious/just reason for doing so, and the catechism says you may not use it for selfish reasons, the church doesn’t place time limits or determine what constitutes these reasons. Do you care what the actual restrictions on NFP are you only your own opinions?

Do I care if every couple uses NFP? Not really, though I do think that all couples getting married in the church should at least know and learn about NFP so that if they ever have a time in the married life when they have just reasons to avoid a child they can do so without resorting to ABC, or so they can try to overcome infertility trials with out resorting to immoral means.