Sadness over NFP misuse/misunderstanding

[Mary_Gail_36]

They can be married with no restrictions.

Regulating births is different from saying “No” to anymore children.

If you think about it like this, a couple that practices NFP (avoidance) deliberately works against the primary point of sexual intercourse, while still enjoying the secondary benefits.
This is allowed by the Church for serious reasons, but it seems like it’s being pushed indiscriminately with no regard to the rest of the Church’s teachings on family life.

If that were true, then we must all learn NFP anf be intimate only on fertile days Is that what the Church teaches?

 

[Julianna]

They can be married with no restrictions.

Regulating births is different from saying “No” to anymore children.That is good to know!!

If you think about it like this, a couple that practices NFP (avoidance) deliberately works against the primary point of sexual intercourse, while still enjoying the secondary benefits.

This is allowed by the Church for serious reasons, but it seems like it’s being pushed indiscriminately with no regard to the rest of the Church’s teachings on family life.

 

[whm]

Can all posters agree that the Church allows NFP use to regulate births (maybe for the rest of the marriage) for grave/serious/just reasons?

Can all posters agree that some are worried that NFP could be abused.

Can all posters agree that they can not judge a couple’s reasons?

Great, let’s hug, sing Kumbaya, and move on to other threads.

:grouphug:

I’m almost with you I am a little uncomfortable with serious/just, I’m good with grave. They are all overlapping terms subject to interpretation I think if you add the couple should seek spiritual advice from a good priest I would be there.

Oh strike that I not good with singing Kumbaya either, I do like camp fires though.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

It can if a spouse does not have a grave reason to refuse relations requested by the other spouse. One spouse can not decide to us NFP on their own.

The “marriage rights” among other things, refers to both the marriage debt (St Paul’s term) and abusive requesting of the marriage debt. The marriage debt in more modern terms means the right to the body.

Couples who do NFP usually on the same page regarding demanding and payment of the marital debt. If they aren’t, then there are other problems in the marriage.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

I’m almost with you I am a little uncomfortable with serious/just, I’m good with grave. They are all overlapping terms subject to interpretation I think if you add the couple should seek spiritual advice from a good priest I would be there.

Oh strike that I not good with singing Kumbaya either, I do like camp fires though.

Agreed. Seeking the advice of a priest is always best. It’s kind of like missing Mass on Sundays for grave reasons. It’s much better to ask a priest. We shouldn’t just say, “Oh my situation is grave, I’d better skip Mass today”, or “Oh my situation is grave, I’d better use NFP.”

If that were true, then we must all learn NFP anf be intimate only on fertile days Is that what the Church teaches?

Nope, you’re missing the point. Being intimate on infertile days is perfectly fine, as you are not doing it to intentionally avoid children. Using NFP only on infertile days is quite another thing, and involves and intentional detachment of the martial act from it’s primary purpose.

 

[whm]

Couples who do NFP usually on the same page regarding demanding and payment of the marital debt. If they aren’t, then there are other problems in the marriage.

Most first (unplanned) kids for NFP couples are due the proper exchange of the marriage debt.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Most first (unplanned) kids for NFP couples are due the proper exchange of the marriage debt.

There are no unplanned children…the Lord has planned them all from the beginning of time.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

In any case, if some people wish to use NFP, fine, I’ll not stop them. But I will say this, if you want to make the martial act a complex arrangement of calenders, days, signs, temperatures, and constant periods of abstinence, fine. When I get married I will do as my parents and many other people for centuries have done, and live my marriage without turning it into a scientific project.

Criticize people all you want for being “irresponsible” or somehow “lacking” in knowledge themselves and their spouses. But NFP isn’t God’s gift to the married couple, and it’s not some ultimate solution to all martial problems and difficulties with kids and finances.

People these days want far too much control over exactly when they’ll have children, what they will look like, and what they will be. There’s nothing wrong with leaving things in God’s hands, and it hurts that anyone would say that NFP is the superior option.

 

[PaulinVA]

I’m almost with you I am a little uncomfortable with serious/just, I’m good with grave. They are all overlapping terms subject to interpretation I think if you add the couple should seek spiritual advice from a good priest I would be there.

Oh strike that I not good with singing Kumbaya either, I do like camp fires though.

Heh, Heh. Kumbaya is optional, too.

I think there is much more agreement on this thread than disagreement.

I believe there are documents that talk about serious or just reasons. That’s why I put them all together.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Agreed. Seeking the advice of a priest is always best. It’s kind of like missing Mass on Sundays for grave reasons. It’s much better to ask a priest. We shouldn’t just say, “Oh my situation is grave, I’d better skip Mass today”, or “Oh my situation is grave, I’d better use NFP.”

Nope, you’re missing the point. Being intimate on infertile days is perfectly fine, as you are not doing it to intentionally avoid children. Using NFP only on infertile days is quite another thing, and involves and intentional detachment of the martial act from it’s primary purpose.

Cordially and respectfully, I’m old enough to be your mom.

My husband and I are in prayerfully complete obedience to the Church… I have not missed the point .

 

[Alexander_Smith]

A bit of food for though. I found this in a blog by a Dominican brother.

“If family planners had their way, there would have been no St. Bernadette of Lourdes, who was born from a jail flat; nor St. Therese of Lisieux, who came from a sickly mother who lost three children in a row; nor St. Ignatius Loyola, who was the thirteenth of thirteen children; and most certainly not a St. Catherine of Siena, who was the twenty-fifth child in a family of twenty-five children!”

Btw, if I understand correctly, “Humanae Vitae” and it’s language is not infallible, so trying to find loopholes through it’s nonspecific wording is a mistake. The parts of HV that ARE infallible are the parts that are backed up by actual Church teachings.

 

[Momofmyangels]

.

But NFP isn’t God’s gift to the married couple,

There’s nothing wrong with leaving things in God’s hands, and it hurts that anyone would say that NFP is the superior option.

Well said!

God knows our circumstances a whole lot better than we do so why shouldn’t we just trust in Him. HE CANNOT FAIL. We sure can though.

 

[Em_in_FL]

When I get married I will do as my parents and many other people for centuries have done, and live my marriage without turning it into a scientific project.

I wish you all the blessings in the world that would enable this gift.
Do not assume that those who resort to NFP are any less reliant on God. Those who struggle are closest to Him.
I have to admit being where you are at one point in my life… I’ve been mightily humbled.

Criticize people all you want for being “irresponsible” or somehow “lacking” in knowledge themselves and their spouses. But NFP isn’t God’s gift to the married couple, and it’s not some ultimate solution to all martial problems and difficulties with kids and finances.

People these days want far too much control over exactly when they’ll have children, what they will look like, and what they will be. There’s nothing wrong with leaving things in God’s hands, and it hurts that anyone would say that NFP is the superior option.

I think you’ve gravely misjudged those who use NFP…
I hope you never have to endure this cross… but please don’t assume those who do are anything but sincerely suffering.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

I wish you all the blessings in the world that would enable this gift.
Do not assume that those who resort to NFP are any less reliant on God. Those who struggle are closest to Him.
I have to admit being where you are at one point in my life… I’ve been mightily humbled.

I think you’ve gravely misjudged those who use NFP…
I hope you never have to endure this cross… but please don’t assume those who do are anything but sincerely suffering.

My point about “desire for control” was more directed at those who insist that all Catholic couples use NFP. Not the average Catholic family that uses it.

I am not trying to judge those who use NFP, I am more trying to judge the reasons for using NFP. I don’t want to make a mistake in my marriage, and I don’t want others to either.

 

[LLMom]

My point about “desire for control” was more directed at those who insist that all Catholic couples use NFP. Not the average Catholic family that uses it.

I am not trying to judge those who use NFP, I am more trying to judge the reasons for using NFP. I don’t want to make a mistake in my marriage, and I don’t want others to either.

It is not our place to judge their reasons for using NFP. God knows. The fact that people are trying to follow church teaching is wonderful. But we can’t determine serious reasons for people. Everyone and every situation is different. We can’t all handle the same things.

thechurchfanatic.blogspot.com

 

[Rence]

My point about “desire for control” was more directed at those who insist that all Catholic couples use NFP. Not the average Catholic family that uses it.

I am not trying to judge those who use NFP, I am more trying to judge the reasons for using NFP. I don’t want to make a mistake in my marriage, and I don’t want others to either.

I don’t understand what you mean about “those who insist that all Catholic couples use NFP”. I haven’t read a post by anyone who insists on all Catholic couples use NFP unless it was in the context of ABCs. In other words, when posters talk about the need to space out pregnancies or avoid pregnancy for some time, others will insist they use NFP instead of ABCs — which is the correct teaching. I’ve never seen anyone say that Catholics MUST use NFP. It would be prudent to KNOW about NFP and get some experience in it, but I’d hardly say it was required.

While I understand you’re trying to explore NFP to ensure no abuse in your future, you can’t judge the reasons others use NFP because everyone’s situation is unique. At the beginning of this thread people (including myself) said that couples have to discern with prayer and much thought, and with the consultation of a priest. You started saying the same. It still applies. Your future marriage has nothing to do with anyone else’s NFP status (which BTW can be used to GET pregnant). Your future marriage will depend on your and your spouse’s current situation, carefully evaluated and prayed over, and you will need the consultation of a priest.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

It is not our place to judge their reasons for using NFP. God knows. The fact that people are trying to follow church teaching is wonderful. But we can’t determine serious reasons for people. Everyone and every situation is different. We can’t all handle the same things.

thechurchfanatic.blogspot.com

That is true. I do not intend to judge actual people, but rather hypothetical situations that a couple might experience, so that I can better determine the morality of the use of NFP.

Trying to follow the Church’s teaching is wonderful, actually following it is even better. Not saying NFPers aren’t following the teaching’s of the Church, but those who try but do not achieve may need a push in the right direction.

 

[Jennifer_J]

A bit of food for though. I found this in a blog by a Dominican brother.

“If family planners had their way, there would have been no St. Bernadette of Lourdes, who was born from a jail flat; nor St. Therese of Lisieux, who came from a sickly mother who lost three children in a row; nor St. Ignatius Loyola, who was the thirteenth of thirteen children; and most certainly not a St. Catherine of Siena, who was the twenty-fifth child in a family of twenty-five children!”

Btw, if I understand correctly, “Humanae Vitae” and it’s language is not infallible, so trying to find loopholes through it’s nonspecific wording is a mistake. The parts of HV that ARE infallible are the parts that are backed up by actual Church teachings.

Without seeing the whole blog and the context of the quote (you should link it so others can read in context), I would venture to guess those “famiily planners” are people like Planned Parenthood, not couples using NFP.

I also think that Humanae Vitae IS infallible because ALL of it backs up magesterial teaching…
If you can prove otherwise, I’d suggest you post the info.

 

[Chiltepin]

My word, this thread has become a monster!

Can all posters agree that the Church allows NFP use to regulate births (maybe for the rest of the marriage) for grave/serious/just reasons?

Can all posters agree that some are worried that NFP could be abused.

Can all posters agree that they can not judge a couple’s reasons?

Great, let’s hug, sing Kumbaya, and move on to other threads.

:grouphug:

For goodness sake yes.

It’s easy to tell someone they just “don’t understand” and tell them to wait until they get older. It’s harder to actually argue against that person, and really dig deep into the teachings of the Church to find the truth.

As for “pontificating”, sorry if I sound preachy, but you sound a bit condescending, so I guess we’re even.

I don’t think he was at all unfair to you.

I can identify with the frustration you feel when people write you off for your age. I get plenty frustrated when in the traditionalist forum people tell me I couldn’t possibly understand how beautiful a Latin Mass is or what all has been lost because I’m young and stupid (ok they don’t call me stupid, but it is frustrating because I’m thinking hey wasn’t I on your side? Latin Masses still exist and I’m not blind to how irreverent people can be in various types of communities.) My all time least favorite phrase is, “you couldn’t possibly understand.” I don’t think anyone has written you off as not being able to understand. This is why they continue to try to explain the dynamics of marriage to you as they apply to NFP.

So I become frustrated when people rag me about my age, but here it is not so much about your age as about experience. I am 24 and unmarried. I have gathered a lot from this thread that actually set my mind at ease about NFP. This is what the married people, speaking from experience have been saying in the thread all along. This is why the age/ experience thing matters. These married couples know when the possible abstaining days are but that doesn’t make it easy. They aren’t pulling out charts and snickering that they are really pulling one over on God by not doing it tonight. Married couples who use it have explained over and over again about the reality of a sexual partnership. It is a difficult sacrifice to abstain on those days. I could be wrong but it seems like it would be of an evolutionary advantage for women to be most hormonally and chemically desiring that partnership during the most fertile days. (I don’t really know if that is true, but it would make sense for the propagation of any animal species) I used to worry, like you did about if NFP was just an easy way out of doing what we are supposed to do, but I have listed to these experienced people (which has been way less gross than any of the times I had to listen to my mom about it).

Learn to learn from people. If what those people are saying takes serious issue with Church teaching then yes object, flail about. I think you probably have done a good job in understanding Catholic sexuality up to this point and that is so good and rare. Maybe NFP is a bridge you need to cross when you come to it. When and if marriage to a special lady is your vocation, you can discuss it with her.

 

[whm]

Couples who do NFP usually on the same page regarding demanding and payment of the marital debt. If they aren’t, then there are other problems in the marriage.

I wouldn’t say they have problems. If one person wants a child and the other is hesitant that is not a problem with their marriage. If the second person refuses to (try to) have a child - that is a problem.

Note the following are some additional thoughts I have had and not in response to any one poster.

Also, temptation is not a sin, a spouse is not sinning for requesting relations if they feel tempted to sin. Because they agreed to NFP 2 weeks ago, doesn’t mean they can’t be tempted today. It is not about satisfying desires in these situations, it is about avoiding mortal sin. We don’t now how strong these temptations are for that spouse, our temptations may be in entirely different areas. We should not judge them for being tempted, we should pray that “we are not put to the test”. Now the spouses might figure out another way to get through a temptation, together, without having relations and without sinning, but that would be a consented on path that they take (therefore the debt is not denied) and doesn’t negate the existence of the “marriage debt” as part of the moral law.