Sadness over NFP misuse/misunderstanding

[The_Bucket]

You misunderstand my meaning. Charting a woman’s cycle allows the couple to have sex as often as possible, or as often as they would like, during her infertile period. If tracking and maximizing that window of opportunity was not part of the intent behind NFP they could confine intercourse to the menstrual cycle and be sure of not conceiving without any other effort involved.

So we shouldn’t be allowed to understand how our bodies naturally work and then use that knowledge as we think it best within the confines of Church doctrine? Interesting argument.

I know how to control my bowels, but I’ll just not do that because that would be unnatural.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

You misunderstand my meaning. Charting a woman’s cycle allows the couple to have sex as often as possible, or as often as they would like, during her infertile period. If tracking and maximizing that window of opportunity was not part of the intent behind NFP they could confine intercourse to the menstrual cycle and be sure of not conceiving without any other effort involved.

Actually, a woman can conceive during her cycle, especially towards the end .

 

[The_Bucket]

Oh and my friend, I assure you there’s a big difference between ABC and using NFP, especially in mentality. Like when your wife has a going on 25-day Phase II in her second post partum cycle so everything is messed up…

Yeah. That’s not fun and it’s definitely sacrificial, I assure you of that.

 

[Jennifer_J]

You misunderstand my meaning. Charting a woman’s cycle allows the couple to have sex as often as possible, or as often as they would like, during her infertile period. If tracking and maximizing that window of opportunity was not part of the intent behind NFP they could confine intercourse to the menstrual cycle and be sure of not conceiving without any other effort involved.

Yes, charting allows the couple to have sex as often as they would LIKE–either to conceive or not to conceive. It can be used either way. It can be used to MAXIMIZE the chance of conception. Using the pill or a condom doesn’t EVER do that (because they aren’t ordered toward procreation in any sense of the word).

 

[The_Bucket]

Sometimes I wonder how these debates even break out, seriously. We’re all Catholic here, right? And part of being a Catholic is obedience to the Magisterium regardless whether you understand or your “gut” agrees, right?

The Church has spoken very clearly on this issue and it’s not up for debate. Your opinion doesn’t matter.

 

[momor]

Sometimes I wonder how these debates even break out, seriously. We’re all Catholic here, right? And part of being a Catholic is obedience to the Magisterium regardless whether you understand or your “gut” agrees, right?

The Church has spoken very clearly on this issue and it’s not up for debate. Your opinion doesn’t matter.

If opinion and debate didn’t matter why do come to this forum?
Are you sure you are not wishing to shut me down because you don’t have a counter-argument and it irritates you?

The only comparison I made between ABC and NFP was to show that condom use is more likely to result in an unintended pregnancy. Nowhere did I promote the use of ABC or state that I was not an obedient Catholic. So please don’t use either of those 2 excuses to try and shut down this discussion. My comments are about the underlying purpose and intent of NFP.

 

[CountrySinger]

So we shouldn’t be allowed to understand how our bodies naturally work and then use that knowledge as we think it best within the confines of Church doctrine? Interesting argument.

I know how to control my bowels, but I’ll just not do that because that would be unnatural.

laughs so hard that diet soda shoots of nose

If that were the case, then NO ONE would be around a group of Catholics! We don’t need another reason for people to hate us.

Plus side, sales for Depends would skyrocket.

 

[PaulinVA]

The only comparison I made between ABC and NFP was to show that condom use is more likely to result in an unintended pregnancy. Nowhere did I promote the use of ABC or state that I was not an obedient Catholic. So please don’t use either of those 2 excuses to try and shut down this discussion. My comments are about the underlying purpose and intent of NFP.

What does it matter that condoms potentially fail more often than NFP couples read the chart incorrectly or don’t apply the rules the right way?

The whole discussion/argument about NFP being deceptive or wink wink “Catholic Birth Control” is interesting but ultimately futile. You can’t call it sinful for a couple to not have relations on any given night. Period.

 

[momor]

What does it matter that condoms potentially fail more often than NFP couples read the chart incorrectly or don’t apply the rules the right way?

That discussion was a ways back.

The whole discussion/argument about NFP being deceptive or wink wink “Catholic Birth Control” is interesting but ultimately futile. **You can’t call it sinful for a couple to not have relations on any given night. ** Period.

**Huh? **

 

[PaulinVA]

momor,

You seem to be saying that having relations only during the infertile time is sinful if you are trying to avoid.

That would mean that not having relations during the fertile period is sinful, too, right?

So, for your fictitious couple, every time they have relations during the infertile time it’s sinful (because they are abusing NFP and practicing it contraceptively) and they are being sinful when they* don’*t have relations during the fertile time (because they are avoiding conception but should be having relations).

Wow.

 

[momor]

momor,

You seem to be saying that having relations only during the infertile time is sinful if you are trying to avoid.

That would mean that not having relations during the fertile period is sinful, too, right?

So, for your fictitious couple, every time they have relations during the infertile time it’s sinful (because they are abusing NFP and practicing it contraceptively) and they are being sinful when they* don’*t have relations during the fertile time (because they are avoiding conception but should be having relations).

Wow.

I’m actually not saying that or taking any particular position on what should be. I am trying to point out that NFP is NOT what it is touted to be and the hypocrisy is problematic for lots of people. Our theology states that the unitive and procreative aspects of sex should not be separated EVER! I am trying to show that that is what actually happens with contraceptive NFP, but it is hidden because the philosophy and practice is cloaked in terms that sound lofty and wholistic but don’t mean what they REALLY mean. There is a real disconnect in philosophy and practice between ordered to procreation and fertility that is false when examined with reason and logic.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I’m actually not saying that or taking any particular position on what should be. I am trying to point out that NFP is NOT what it is touted to be and the hypocrisy is problematic for lots of people. Our theology states that the unitive and procreative aspects of sex should not be separated EVER! I am trying to show that that is what actually happens with contraceptive NFP, but it is hidden because the philosophy and practice is cloaked in terms that sound lofty and wholistic but don’t mean what they REALLY mean. There is a real disconnect in philosophy and practice between ordered to procreation and fertility that is false when examined with reason and logic.

I fail to see your reason and logic?
Do you have any teachings or theological backup for this?

 

[HouseArrest]

If opinion and debate didn’t matter why do come to this forum?
Are you sure you are not wishing to shut me down because you don’t have a counter-argument and it irritates you?

The only comparison I made between ABC and NFP was to show that condom use is more likely to result in an unintended pregnancy. Nowhere did I promote the use of ABC or state that I was not an obedient Catholic. So please don’t use either of those 2 excuses to try and shut down this discussion. My comments are about the underlying purpose and intent of NFP.

How can you claim that the ABC couple has a greater chance for pregnancy? If the condom using couple has relations on a fertile day, they are not going to have a greater chance of pregnancy than if an NFP couple has relations on a fertile day.

 

[momor]

How can you claim that the ABC couple has a greater chance for pregnancy? If the condom using couple has relations on a fertile day, they are not going to have a greater chance of pregnancy than if an NFP couple has relations on a fertile day.

My claim is based on statistical rates of failure (unintended pregnancy). Besides, NFP couples theoretically don’t have sex on fertile days. Condom couples theoretically have sex throughout the cycle. Condoms theoretically break/leak throughout the cycle, meaning egg and sperm on average are more likely to unite in condom users.

 

[Jennifer_J]

I’m actually not saying that or taking any particular position on what should be. I am trying to point out that NFP is NOT what it is touted to be and the hypocrisy is problematic for lots of people. Our theology states that the unitive and procreative aspects of sex should not be separated EVER! I am trying to show that that is what actually happens with contraceptive NFP, but it is hidden because the philosophy and practice is cloaked in terms that sound lofty and wholistic but don’t mean what they REALLY mean. There is a real disconnect in philosophy and practice between ordered to procreation and fertility that is false when examined with reason and logic.

And all NFP does is give info. Choosing to have sex or not does nothing to separate the unitive and procreative aspects of the act. The act IS procreative (ordered to procreation), even if the woman isn’t fertile. There are no cloaked terms, no disconnect. It is what it is, you are either having sex or abstaining.

 

[momor]

I fail to see your reason and logic?
Do you have any teachings or theological backup for this?

As you stated it is my reason and logic. I am critiqueing the NFP philosophy and practice and trying to show where I think it falls apart. I’m not comparing theological views.

I don’t doubt than many of you think it is tilting at windmills and I should just accept the teaching and forget it. But it is something that has bothered me for years and I know I am not the only one. There are many Catholics who continue to use ABC because they believe that morally NFP is fundamentally no different. That what I have been trying to show but we keep getting hung up on the terminology that you ( meaning NFP users) accept and I think is disingenuous.

 

[momor]

And all NFP does is give info. Choosing to have sex or not does nothing to separate the unitive and procreative aspects of the act. The act IS procreative (ordered to procreation), even if the woman isn’t fertile. There are no cloaked terms, no disconnect. It is what it is, you are either having sex or abstaining.

I don’t accept your definition of procreative or ordered to procreation or the old favored term open to life when you disconnect it in a temporal way from fertility.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

As you stated it is my reason and logic. I am critiqueing the NFP philosophy and practice and trying to show where I think it falls apart. I’m not comparing theological views.

I don’t doubt than many of you think it is tilting at windmills and I should just accept the teaching and forget it. But it is something that has bothered me for years and I know I am not the only one. **There are many Catholics who continue to use ABC because they believe that morally NFP is fundamentally no different. That **what I have been trying to show but we keep getting hung up on the terminology that you ( meaning NFP users) accept and I think is disingenuous.

If it were really morally no different, why not more compliance with NFP among Catholics? Why so much disobedience if they were the same? (maybe because ABC couples don’t want anything to interfere with their sex lives?)

 

[Jennifer_J]

I don’t accept your definition of procreative or ordered to procreation or the old favored term open to life when you disconnect it in a temporal way from fertility.

As Em posted before:

nteresting point:

Go to the Humanae Vitae Encyclical…
Search for the word “procreate”… it’s no where to be found.
Search for the word “procreation”… it’s used in context discerning the “question of procreation” and that the marital act should be “ordered toward procreation”.
Search for the word “procreative”… it’s used in context saying that the marital act is twofold and must be BOTH procreative and unitive…

You really need to understand the USES of the word within the Encyclical…

It’s not MY definition. It’s the Church’s…

 

[momor]

If it were really morally no different, why not more compliance with NFP among Catholics? Why so much disobedience if they were the same? (maybe because ABC couples don’t want anything to interfere with their sex lives?)

I really don’t think that is the reason for many Catholic couples and I’ve discussed it with many. Most of those just want what they see as the greater assurance of ABC at preventing pregnancy and they are just not willing to trust in God’s plan as much as they should. Many women do not have cycles that are easy to discern and they are afraid. Some women do not have cooperative spouses. I have spoken to many who said they would willingly abstain from sex if they could trust that NFP was as much of a sure thing as ABC.