Sadness over NFP misuse/misunderstanding

[Jennifer_J]

OK. I am talking about NFP here in my descriptions.

“every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act (actions such as charting, checking, using artificial tools to check hormone levels) , or in its accomplishment (we only have sex on certain days determined in anticipation of pregnancy free sex) , or in the development of its natural consequences (by rigorously adhering to NFP methods we can be up to 99% sure that sex will be infertile while still morally meeting the criteria of of not interfering with the procreative process ), proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” ( technically pregnancy is not “impossible” but we have done everything we can to avoid it and certainly intend to make sure pregnancy is as unlikely as we can make it) is intrinsically evil.

It seems like it all comes down to technicalities about the how and making those the moral criteria rather than the intent which is where I think the morality is.

But NFP isn’t an ACTION THAT INTERFERS WITH THE ACT IN ANY WAY Infact, the act of charting or peeing on a stick doesn’t interfer with sex at all or change sex at all, because there is no act happening (unless you are trying to conceive ). This is talking about direct contraceptive acts: inserting a diaphraph, putting on a condom, taking a pill, having and IUD or contraceptive patch. These forms of contraception are in anticipation of any sexual act and render the act infertile. It’s also talking about withdrawal (it’s accomplishment) being wrong. Using NFP doesn’t stop intercourse, doesn’t put sperm somewhere it can’t work. Or in the development of natural consequences–this would be anything that interfers with the development of conception (again, the pill, IUD, morning after pill, and so forth). NFP knowlege certainly doesn’t intefer with any conception that has taken place.

Like Em, I think that’s about all I can say, because you can’t see the forest for the trees. Pray for enlightenment. Speak to a priest. Be obedient (and no, that doesn’t mean you have to use NFP or promote NFP or anything). We all need to make sure we are using NFP in a responsible manner. That we have grave/just/serious reasons to use it. That we make sure those teaching NFP are teaching in an authentic manner.

I’ll close with my personal story…
Dh and I are converts and we contracepted up until we joined the Church. It was a huge leap of faith to throw away those pills and trust NFP. We had plans after all. 2 kids and then maybe foster and adopt or travel… Ha! God truly has opened our eyes to be generous in our fertility (and 6 doesn’t really feel like that many children! contrary to what everyone tells me…“are they ALL yours???” sigh yes, they are). We still use NFP to space and I like the knowledge I have about my health. I love having an NFP only Catholic Doctor. I love that these signs are MORE than just about fertility. Is NFP a magical thing that makes relationships good? No, but it is a good tool to keep communications open. It makes a couple realize the purpose of marriage is children and what an awesome responsiblity that is. What a wonderful gift our fertility is and how fleeting and how precious…that’s our experience anyway. I’m sure other couples mileage may vary…

 

[NoAvailableName]

Unfortunately, this thread began not with the question, “what constitutes generosity” but with the statement “I think NFP is ungenerous” so we’ve taken this long to get there…

That is a gross misrepresentation of what the OP wrote in the opening post.

 

[peregrinator_it]

That is a gross misrepresentation of what the OP wrote in the opening post.

Apologies. I’ll amend it to “I think NFP is often used ungenerously, and may be, by its nature, ungenerous.”

 

[momor]

I believe NFP has become de-facto Catholic contraception and many who practice it have as much of a contraceptive mentality as those who use ABC. You don’t have to read very long through some of the NFP threads here on this forum to realize that. Those couples think they are doing the right thing because the Church is not telling us otherwise. Church sanctioned NFP classes and coaches show that.

When HV was written, the rhythym method in use relied a lot on trust in God. NFP users are moving farther and farther away from that trust in God and putting the trust in the methods and technology. With regard to the statement in HV about condemning contraception because it makes conception “impossible”, we know that statistically speaking the Pill and rigorously followed NFP as just about the same in those terms. Therefore Church teaching seems more and more to be all about the ‘how’ one goes about it and less about the why that drives the theology.

The more technology narrows down identifying the woman’s fertile period, the more ABC users will become interested in it because it is a lot more healthy than the Pill and the IUD and more effective than a barrier. The shorter the abstinance period required, the more ABC users will find it acceptable. However, this shift will be one of technique, not necessarily one of mind and heart and respect for God’s creation. I sincerely believe that God is far less interested in the how of avoiding pregnancy than He is in our reasons why. If we think God is more focused on how we mess with His creative plan than why we mess with it then I think in all honesty we have to look at medical technology outside just the reproductive area as well. We are circumventing His creation design all over the place!

Regarding comments about fertility technology made by others:
Fertility is indeed a mysterious area, however most of the remaining mystery is around how to get pregnant for those with difficulties and how to prevent miscarriage. Once you pin down ovulation, a discrete event, it is a pretty straightforward process to figure out the fertile window and narrow it to as few days as possible. It will not be long before meters will be available to predict and p(name removed by moderator)oint ovulation with near 100% accuracy.

 

[peregrinator_it]

I believe NFP has become de-facto Catholic contraception and many who practice it have as much of a contraceptive mentality as those who use ABC. You don’t have to read very long through some of the NFP threads here on this forum to realize that.

This is where I bow out of this thread. I am sorry for you because judging others’ hearts can do you no good.

When HV was written, the rhythym method in use relied a lot on trust in God.

This is factually incorrect. *

Humanae Vitae* was promulgated in 1968. Ovulation method research was being undertaken in the 1950s and the the ovulation method (now Billings Ovulation Method) was being used/taught in 1965 (and maybe earlier…)
I believe Pope Paul VI was aware of this (although, I’m not finding the article I want to cite.) At the time, there was also a temperature-only method (the ancestor of symptothermal) being used.

Therefore Church teaching seems more and more to be all about the ‘how’ one goes about it and less about the why that drives the theology.

That quote you are stuck is about the “why.”

Fertility is indeed a mysterious area, however most of the remaining mystery is around how to get pregnant for those with difficulties and how to prevent miscarriage. Once you pin down ovulation, a discrete event, it is a pretty straightforward process to figure out the fertile window and narrow it to as few days as possible. It will not be long before meters will be available to predict and p(name removed by moderator)oint ovulation with near 100% accuracy.

This is also factually inaccurate. Figuring out “how to get pregnant and how to prevent miscarriage” is also figuring out the hormones that govern ovulation. (Do you mind if I ask you’re a man??? It’s all the same thing… if miscarriage is not caused by chromosomal abnormalities (although, they too are caused by poor cell division before ovulation, which also may have hormonal roots) then it is caused by physical failure in the mother’s body, usually caused by … hormone problems. These same hormone problems make conception difficult… and may or may not be the cause or effect of imbalances in metabolic hormones like insulin…)

It is not straightforward. Meters cannot p(name removed by moderator)oint ovulation.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I believe NFP has become de-facto Catholic contraception and many who practice it have as much of a contraceptive mentality as those who use ABC. You don’t have to read very long through some of the NFP threads here on this forum to realize that. Those couples think they are doing the right thing because the Church is not telling us otherwise. Church sanctioned NFP classes and coaches show that.

When HV was written, the rhythym method in use relied a lot on trust in God. NFP users are moving farther and farther away from that trust in God and putting the trust in the methods and technology. With regard to the statement in HV about condemning contraception because it makes conception “impossible”, we know that statistically speaking the Pill and rigorously followed NFP as just about the same in those terms. Therefore Church teaching seems more and more to be all about the ‘how’ one goes about it and less about the why that drives the theology.

The more technology narrows down identifying the woman’s fertile period, the more ABC users will become interested in it because it is a lot more healthy than the Pill and the IUD and more effective than a barrier. The shorter the abstinance period required, the more ABC users will find it acceptable. However, this shift will be one of technique, not necessarily one of mind and heart and respect for God’s creation. I sincerely believe that God is far less interested in the how of avoiding pregnancy than He is in our reasons why. If we think God is more focused on how we mess with His creative plan than why we mess with it then I think in all honesty we have to look at medical technology outside just the reproductive area as well. We are circumventing His creation design all over the place!

Regarding comments about fertility technology made by others:
Fertility is indeed a mysterious area, however most of the remaining mystery is around how to get pregnant for those with difficulties and how to prevent miscarriage. Once you pin down ovulation, a discrete event, it is a pretty straightforward process to figure out the fertile window and narrow it to as few days as possible. It will not be long before meters will be available to predict and p(name removed by moderator)oint ovulation with near 100% accuracy.

First off… your sweeping judgment is insulting and lacks charity. I will leave it at that.

Secondly - you *clearly *don’t have a full understanding of fertility. This “narrowing of the window of fertility” idea that you think is possible is outside the realms of biological reality. There will *always *be a multi-day abstinence required if avoiding conception is necessary, regardless of how accurate the tools are. Ovulation is not an instantaneous event, nor is the window of opportunity for conceiving ever going to narrow below a few days - these are biological events, not laboratory ones. Eggs are viable for up to 24 hours, and sperm up to 72 hours… even then, most NFP courses teach that you should continue to abstain for up to 3 days beyond ovulation… for full statistical guarantee of 99% accuracy… that window just can’t narrowed beyond reality.

 

[The_Bucket]

Honestly mormor, your arguments are a lot like people who think we shouldn’t take medicine to cure ills or use logic to better understand God because it “takes away from his divine plan.” We were given our intellect for a reason and we’re expected to use it but also not to abuse it. We abuse our intellect when we find ways to short-circuit proper functions of our body and we also abuse it on the opposite side of the spectrum when we refuse to use it to cure ailments and disorders.

God doesn’t give us a detailed plan for our lives. We’re expected to pray, listen and then figure it out the best we can based on the information and insight we receive or don’t receive. The same goes for NFP. Those methods give people information, it is up to them to decide how that information best suits their family’s plan.

If God wants a child born into the world, I assure you He’ll figure out a way to get that child there. Until then, I’d hope you give more couples the benefit of the doubt that they first prayed and talked to one another before deciding how to use the information they gather with NFP and that goes both for avoiding AND conceiving. Maybe God has a plan to have a family struggle financially or medically for a time so they learn patience of the flesh, detachment from material possessions and even detachment from worshiping at the altar of youth and another child ISN’T in the cards for that family for some time. You don’t know and neither do I.

Every method teaches both how to conceive and how to avoid; it’s the emphasis you’re placing on it as being “Catholic birth control” that’s blinding you to that fact. You’re so zeroed in on what people choose to do with the information that you’re conflating individual use of technology and method with the method itself. There’s no “philosophy” of NFP except that it helps people conceive and not conceive without artificial means. It’s scientific, not religious. The religious and moral aspects only come into play when you bring Catholic teaching into play, the methods themselves are wholly neutral.

 

[The_Bucket]

Ovulation is not an instantaneous event, nor is the window of opportunity for conceiving ever going to narrow below a few days - these are biological events, not laboratory ones. Eggs are viable for up to 24 hours, and sperm up to 72 hours… that window just can’t narrow beyond reality.

And given that ovulation is highly variable, especially for some women, the window really can’t narrow much more than it is now. I think as technology advances we will get a better idea for less-fertile couples of when they’re more likely TO conceive, but I just don’t see how you narrow the window much more TTA. Today, LH isn’t even measurable until 12-48 hours before ovulation and since sperm can actually live even longer than 72 hours, even more sensitive OPKs that are perfectly accurate 48 hours out from ovulation won’t do anything for couples TTA. Maybe we’ll get something to figure out precisely when Phase II is over so there would be an extra 24-36 hours for Phase III. Wow, yeah that really narrows things doesn’t it?!

What mormor is arguing is actually scientifically impossible because there is nothing to measure, nothing to figure out except when Phase II starts and when it ends. Everything else varies for every month for every woman so the only thing that would work is a time machine for everybody. Period. (Get the pun?!)

 

[momor]

This is where I bow out of this thread. I am sorry for you because judging others’ hearts can do you no good.

I made no judgment about any particular person. I don’t believe you observe the world around you without coming to all kinds of judgments. This is phony morality intended to insult.

This is factually incorrect. *

Humanae Vitae* was promulgated in 1968. Ovulation method research was being undertaken in the 1950s and the the ovulation method (now Billings Ovulation Method) was being used/taught in 1965 (and maybe earlier…)
I believe Pope Paul VI was aware of this (although, I’m not finding the article I want to cite.) At the time, there was also a temperature-only method (the ancestor of symptothermal) being used.

I’d love to see some stats on how these new technologies were being taught to large numbers of Catholics. Most were lucky if they had a doctor who understood it or who gave them a booklet. These techniques were nothing like some of the technology in use now and were not being disseminated as they are now.

That quote you are stuck is about the “why.”

I don’t understand what you are saying here

This is also factually inaccurate. Figuring out “how to get pregnant and how to prevent miscarriage” is also figuring out the hormones that govern ovulation. (Do you mind if I ask you’re a man??? It’s all the same thing… if miscarriage is not caused by chromosomal abnormalities (although, they too are caused by poor cell division before ovulation, which also may have hormonal roots) then it is caused by physical failure in the mother’s body, usually caused by … hormone problems. These same hormone problems make conception difficult… and may or may not be the cause or effect of imbalances in metabolic hormones like insulin…)

It is not straightforward. Meters cannot p(name removed by moderator)oint ovulation.

Saying so doesn’t make it so.
Some of you post so quickly in response to me that I have to assume you don’t really think about what I am saying. Doesn’t mean I would change your mind but it makes me think the dialogue isn’t open.

 

[peregrinator_it]

Saying so doesn’t make it so.

Read the entries on reproductive hormones (female) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_system#Reproductive (linked to wiki, because because it is most succint.)

Read the entries on the preovulatory phase en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovulation#Prerequisite_events

This is not true just because I say so. These are proveable, observable, facts.

I respond quickly because I am familiar with the facts. And I type really fast.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

Thank you for your contribution momor.

I 2nd your reply about judgment. It’s tiresome to be constantly accused of being judgmental. I’m sure you wouldn’t have a problem if we spoke out against the numbers of Catholics who use ABC, but if we dare criticize NFP, or NFP mentality, you immediately accuse us of being judgmental or unsympathetic.

You apparently have no problem with judging us as being unsympathetic judgmental people, who have no understanding or experience for what NFP users are going through.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Thank you for your contribution momor.

I 2nd your reply about judgment. It’s tiresome to be constantly accused of being judgmental. I’m sure you wouldn’t have a problem if we spoke out against the numbers of Catholics who use ABC, but if we dare criticize NFP, or NFP mentality, you immediately accuse us of being judgmental or unsympathetic.

You apparently have no problem with judging us as being unsympathetic judgmental people, who have no understanding or experience for what NFP users are going through.

ABC is inheritantly evil. It is not permitted, it is a sin.

NFP per se’ is not sinful.

NFP abuse, could be sinful. But it would be the sin of selfisheness.

One final important point to note. If NFP is chosen wrongly, the wrongness lies in the fact that it is chosen without “good reason” and therefore usually selfishly. The sin here (presuming a person knows what he is doing and freely does it) is the sin of selfishness. (For a Catholic, it can also be the sin of disobedience to authoritative Church teaching.) But choosing NFP selfishly is not the same as contracepting. Strictly speaking, persons can only contracept if they also choose intercourse: a contraceptive act renders sterile an act of intercourse (recall the famous definition from “Humana Vitae,” No. 14: “Any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation — whether as an end or as a means.”); a contraceptive act always relates to some act of sexual intercourse; it is an act contrary to conception (literally contra-conception).

If there is no act of intercourse between a potentially fertile heterosexual couple, there is no potential conception to act contrary toward. Those who choose not to have intercourse, that is, choose abstinence (as NFP practitioners do when they want to avoid pregnancy), cannot act contrary to any conceptive-type of act, since they are specifically avoiding such acts. Therefore, those who choose NFP wrongly, although they do wrong, they do not do the same thing as those who contracept. Strictly speaking, they do not, indeed cannot, have a “contraceptive intention,” although their frame of mind might be characterized by what John Paul II called a “contraceptive mentality” (by which I take him to mean, a mentality that sees the coming to be of new life as a threat, something rightly to take measures against). [Note: some moral theologians would disagree with me here; they believe that NFP can be chosen with a ‘contraceptive intention’ and therefore constitute for some couples a form of contraception.]

ewtn.com/library/PROLIFE/zjustcause.HTM

And feel free to discuss the evil of artificial birth control. We would be in agreement!

 

[momor]

First off… your sweeping judgment is insulting and lacks charity. I will leave it at that.

I have judged no person. If you feel judged you will have to look to your own reasons, they are not mine.

Secondly - you *clearly *don’t have a full understanding of fertility. This “narrowing of the window of fertility” idea that you think is possible is outside the realms of biological reality. There will *always *be a multi-day abstinence required if avoiding conception is necessary, regardless of how accurate the tools are. Ovulation is not an instantaneous event, nor is the window of opportunity for conceiving ever going to narrow below a few days - these are biological events, not laboratory ones. Eggs are viable for up to 24 hours, and sperm up to 72 hours… even then, most NFP courses teach that you should continue to abstain for up to 3 days beyond ovulation… for full statistical guarantee of 99% accuracy… that window just can’t narrowed beyond reality.

I understand fertility just fine in this context. You need to go back and really READ what I said and not jump to conclusions because you don’t like the message.

Of course I don’t think that ovulation is just an isolated event without a huge lead up of all kinds of hormonal changes. I am using the term to mean the release of the egg. The entire window of fertility hinges on this discrete event. And no, I don’t think this means just a one hour or one day window. The window can never be less that what is biologically determined by the life cycle of the egg and sperm. But the closer we come to being able to p(name removed by moderator)oiint the release of the egg, the narrower the fertility window gets.

IMO there are lots of ABC couples who would have no problem with a 7-10 day abstinence window if they were confident in the accuracy and dependability of the technology. But that doesn’t mean that some or even many won’t still have a contraceptive mentality. The technique does not determine the contraceptive mentality - the intentions do.

 

[momor]

Thank you for your contribution momor.

I 2nd your reply about judgment. It’s tiresome to be constantly accused of being judgmental. I’m sure you wouldn’t have a problem if we spoke out against the numbers of Catholics who use ABC, but if we dare criticize NFP, or NFP mentality, you immediately accuse us of being judgmental or unsympathetic.

You apparently have no problem with judging us as being unsympathetic judgmental people, who have no understanding or experience for what NFP users are going through.

You’re welcome. It helps to remember that this is a self-selected group of people on this thread and can in no way be construed to represent a larger population outside if itself ( I am including myself in the self-selection BTW). You’re getting judged because the people who agree with you either aren’t reading or aren’t posting, not that they don’t exist.

 

[The_Bucket]

IMO there are lots of ABC couples who would have no problem with a 7-10 day abstinence window if they were confident in the accuracy and dependability of the technology. But that doesn’t mean that some or even many won’t still have a contraceptive mentality. The technique does not determine the contraceptive mentality - the intentions do.

Interesting. Here you have a problem with the possible intentions and actions of individuals and yet elsewhere you continue to argue that your problem is with the method, not the intentions and actions of individuals.

Bottom line is, basically, you think information and technology is bad because people might misuse it. I’d imagine then you’d want the Internet shut down because some people have used it to spread legal and illegal pornography to the ends of the globe, others have used it to scam millions, still others have hacked into sensitive databases and put the security of corporations and even entire nations at risk.

These are all evil things and since the Internet allows them to do these things, it must be destroyed. I say start with this thread.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Thank you for your contribution momor.

I 2nd your reply about judgment. It’s tiresome to be constantly accused of being judgmental. I’m sure you wouldn’t have a problem if we spoke out against the numbers of Catholics who use ABC, but if we dare criticize NFP, or NFP mentality, you immediately accuse us of being judgmental or unsympathetic.

You apparently have no problem with judging us as being unsympathetic judgmental people, who have no understanding or experience for what NFP users are going through.

There is a huge difference… and this difference is explicitly defined in the teachings of the Church.

ABC is explicitly defined as intrinsically evil.

NFP is a tool that is morally acceptable under “certain circumstances”.

Why in the world would you criticize that? I’m not judging you as judging… I’m just so confused why you feel the need to point your fingers at the “certain circumstances” of a moral tool and, without theological support, suggest that it’s some huge abuse.

I’m sorry… that’s insulting.
It suggests large numbers of people are making excuses for something they wish they didn’t have to use in the first place. Do you realize you are causing pain to others without even knowing the intrinsic details of the states of their souls?

I didn’t say you were judging… I said you were insultingly suggesting error without full knowledge.

 

[Em_in_FL]

IMO there are lots of ABC couples who would have no problem with a 7-10 day abstinence window if they were confident in the accuracy and dependability of the technology. But that doesn’t mean that some or even many won’t still have a contraceptive mentality. The technique does not determine the contraceptive mentality - the intentions do.

True… But ABC is not sinful simply because of the intentions. It’s sinful for multiple reasons beyond the “contraceptive mentality”…

And if IF NFP is ever used with a “contraceptive mentality”, none of those OTHER sins that fall under the use of ABC would apply.

 

[The_Bucket]

Yeah, and I’d have to believe that having a “contraceptive mentality” and yet following through with actions that are not specifically closed towards life is not as far astray as having said mentality and then following through with actions that are specifically closed to life.

If anything I’d think that the person with the wrong mentality but right actions is just struggling with plain old venial tendency towards selfishness. Not good, but not mortally evil either and that person should be encouraged to move his perspective in a better direction.

“What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’ ‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go. Which of the two did what his father wanted?” “The first,” they answered.

Even if that person with a “contraceptive mentality” as you put it is following through begrudgingly and just because the Church said so, that’s still far better than the mortal evils of ABC and it’s usually a much simpler task of gently moving that individual’s perspective towards one that’s better ordered to the Truth.

 

[momor]

From the article quoted:

[Note: some moral theologians would disagree with me here; they believe that NFP can be chosen with a ‘contraceptive intention’ and therefore constitute for some couples a form of contraception.]

QUOTE]

My point exactly, and the more accurate it becomes and the less people have to trust in God the more likely this mentality takes over. Church teaching is not emphasizing the dangers of this drift enough. And every class or coach or company who excitedly advertises the latest and greatest improvements is contributing to the drift.

 

[momor]

There is a huge difference… and this difference is explicitly defined in the teachings of the Church.

ABC is explicitly defined as intrinsically evil.

NFP is a tool that is morally acceptable under “certain circumstances”.

Why in the world would you criticize that? I’m not judging you as judging… I’m just so confused why you feel the need to point your fingers at the “certain circumstances” of a moral tool and, without theological support, suggest that it’s some huge abuse.

I’m sorry… that’s insulting.
It suggests large numbers of people are making excuses for something they wish they didn’t have to use in the first place. Do you realize you are causing pain to others without even knowing the intrinsic details of the states of their souls?

I didn’t say you were judging… I said you were insultingly suggesting error without full knowledge.

It is not my intention to cause anyone pain or insult but I don’t feel that I can worry about who finds my words painful if I am only speaking what I see to be a truth that is being denied by many people. Why does it cause pain to hear another point of view? That is strictly a rhetorical question.

You accept the Church’s teaching as do I. However, I think you accept it without question given the assertions you listed at the top of the post, whereas I have questions. Neither position is wrong. I have no ulterior motives other than a dialogue. I had hoped that was clear but I may be wrong. I have never said anything about what people SHOULD be doing.