Sadness over NFP misuse/misunderstanding

[Michael_Saint]

I’ve read the first 7 pages of this thread, and I have a few things to say:

1. I feel bad for our OP’er, Alexander. He brings up an issue calmly and charitably, and many of the responses are angry and hostile. And then when the angry and hostile comments get to him a bit and he responds with a bit of anger himself, he gets accused of being uncharitable!
2. He comes out with some good arguments founded on reasonable (albeit debatable) grounds, and the responses are mainly ad hominem while the rational points he makes are often not directly or not at all responded to by many (though not all) of the posters.
3. He is continually told that he is 18 and has no real-life experience with this, and thus his points can be disregarded.

a. The fallacy in this argument was pointed out by a poster early-on, but that has not stopped the continual reference to his age and lack of experience - this is usually indicative, as was already pointed out, that it is the easiest way to dismiss someone’s arguments, especially when one is unable to use reason and good counter-arguments - which is the only proper way to refute someone’s untrue claims.

b. For those who still can’t see his arguments because you can’t see past his age, let me point this out: everything he is saying here is no different than what I have seen others who have been married for years and who have given birth to many children post on these forums! In fact, there is a father of 11 who has been posting everything Alexander is saying here. It doesn’t take someone who is married with children to understand Catholic teaching.

c. And I don’t think we need to point out what is wrong with the argument that someone who has never married cannot speak about these issues. For those who are wondering what I am getting at, here it is: John Paul II was never married. If you want to respond, “but JP2 studied this” or “he counseled a lot of couples”, etc., that’s fine - but then accuse Alexander of not studying it or not having counseled couples and do not accuse him any longer of not having been married himself. Shift your reasons for dismissing his rational arguments to something else.

1. Has anyone addressed his concern that many couples are practicing NFP from the beginning of their marriage, and his astute observation that if one is not ready for children then one should not marry? This keeps getting ignored or skirted - as do many of the other issues he raises.

 

[momor]

I’ve read the first 7 pages of this thread, and I have a few things to say:

1. I feel bad for our OP’er, Alexander. He brings up an issue calmly and charitably, and many of the responses are angry and hostile. And then when the angry and hostile comments get to him a bit and he responds with a bit of anger himself, he gets accused of being uncharitable!
2. He comes out with some good arguments founded on reasonable (albeit debatable) grounds, and the responses are mainly ad hominem while the rational points he makes are often not directly or not at all responded to by many (though not all) of the posters.
3. He is continually told that he is 18 and has no real-life experience with this, and thus his points can be disregarded.

a. The fallacy in this argument was pointed out by a poster early-on, but that has not stopped the continual reference to his age and lack of experience - this is usually indicative, as was already pointed out, that it is the easiest way to dismiss someone’s arguments, especially when one is unable to use reason and good counter-arguments - which is the only proper way to refute someone’s untrue claims.

b. For those who still can’t see his arguments because you can’t see past his age, let me point this out: everything he is saying here is no different than what I have seen others who have been married for years and who have given birth to many children post on these forums! In fact, there is a father of 11 who has been posting everything Alexander is saying here. It doesn’t take someone who is married with children to understand Catholic teaching.

c. And I don’t think we need to point out what is wrong with the argument that someone who has never married cannot speak about these issues. For those who are wondering what I am getting at, here it is: John Paul II was never married. If you want to respond, “but JP2 studied this” or “he counseled a lot of couples”, etc., that’s fine - but then accuse Alexander of not studying it or not having counseled couples and do not accuse him any longer of not having been married himself. Shift your reasons for dismissing his rational arguments to something else.

1. **Has anyone addressed his concern that many couples are practicing NFP from the beginning of their marriage, and his astute observation that if one is not ready for children then one should not marry? **This keeps getting ignored or skirted - as do many of the other issues he raises.

Yep. What he said.

 

[former_Catholic]

1. I feel bad for our OP’er, Alexander. He brings up an issue calmly and charitably.

It is ignorance, arrogance, and lack of charity to dare to speculate, judge, evaluate and denigrate what he suspects somehow might be in ANY couple’s hearts and judge their openness to life *based on their number of children or lack of children * or on any comments he heard on the street outside of a marriage bond…

1. He comes out with some good arguments founded on reasonable grounds

He comes out with ridiculously ignorant speculations and negative judgments of hypothetical others in attempts to justify his negative opinions of NFP.
I have yet to see one single good argument from him. He merely challenges and denigrates the practice of NFP based on nothing but his own speculations as to what he supposes might possibly be in the minds and hearts of others based on the number of children he observes in passing and stray comments of strangers (and possibly friends) on the street.
Who are these people possibly practicing NFP in what he deems some possibly unacceptable way? Since when did the Church grant him license to enter the marriage bonds of others to judge what’s in their minds and hearts in their marriage bonds and practice of NFP? His interest in scrutinizing the minds and hearts of couples practicing NFP seems terribly pornographic.

Has anyone addressed his concern that many couples are practicing NFP from the beginning of their marriage, and his astute observation that if one is not ready for children then one should not marry? This keeps getting ignored or skirted - as do many of the other issues he raises.

I have REPEATEDLY addressed his concern. NFP is NOT contraception. There are no certain fertile nor infertile days for conception except in retrospect. NFP charting can only figure the relative probability of conception on any given day, which is all too easily disrupted by illness, infection, stress, hormones, and a whole host of environmental influences. NFP is OBSERVATION, COMMUNICATION, NEGOTIATION, MUTUAL SENSITIVITY, JOINT DECISION MAKING, JOINT ACCEPTANCE OF THE RELATIVE RISK OF PREGNANCY WITH ANY GIVEN MARITAL ACT, and GENUINE PARTNERSHIP in conjugal life and the conception, birthing, and raising of children in marriage.

Of course any married couple, wishing to establish and maintain genuine partnership and mutuality in marriage and conjugal relations, wishes to establish such observations, communication, partnership, and mutuality from the very beginning of their marriage and conjugal relations.

The OP is apparently not interested in establishing observations, communication, joint decision making and jointly accepting responsibility for the relative risk of conceiving a child on any given day when engaging in marital relations. That’s fine, however, it does not give him the right to denigrate the hearts of those who do practice NFP based on his own speculations as to what is in their hearts.

The OP denigrates NFP as reducing marriage to a troublesome undesirable “science project” less desirable than “what his own parents” and others did in times past.
I’m certain that NFP does indeed appear like a “science project” to him, considering the fact that his own parents have apparently demonstrated a dysfunctional alcoholic marriage genuinely lacking in partnership, mutuality, communication, and joint responsibility in the care and raising of children as their own daily working model of marriage and family.

Do you feel that his age and his own personal background model of marriage and family somehow gives him the right to accuse, speculate on, judge, and/or denigrate what he suspects to be in other people’s hearts who practice NFP without having to face anyone’s speculation, judgment, and denigration of what might be in his own heart in return?

 

[Jennifer_J]

I’ve read the first 7 pages of this thread, and I have a few things to say:

1. I feel bad for our OP’er, Alexander. He brings up an issue calmly and charitably, and many of the responses are angry and hostile. And then when the angry and hostile comments get to him a bit and he responds with a bit of anger himself, he gets accused of being uncharitable!
2. He comes out with some good arguments founded on reasonable (albeit debatable) grounds, and the responses are mainly ad hominem while the rational points he makes are often not directly or not at all responded to by many (though not all) of the posters.
3. He is continually told that he is 18 and has no real-life experience with this, and thus his points can be disregarded.

a. The fallacy in this argument was pointed out by a poster early-on, but that has not stopped the continual reference to his age and lack of experience - this is usually indicative, as was already pointed out, that it is the easiest way to dismiss someone’s arguments, especially when one is unable to use reason and good counter-arguments - which is the only proper way to refute someone’s untrue claims.

b. For those who still can’t see his arguments because you can’t see past his age, let me point this out: everything he is saying here is no different than what I have seen others who have been married for years and who have given birth to many children post on these forums! In fact, there is a father of 11 who has been posting everything Alexander is saying here. It doesn’t take someone who is married with children to understand Catholic teaching.

c. And I don’t think we need to point out what is wrong with the argument that someone who has never married cannot speak about these issues. For those who are wondering what I am getting at, here it is: John Paul II was never married. If you want to respond, “but JP2 studied this” or “he counseled a lot of couples”, etc., that’s fine - but then accuse Alexander of not studying it or not having counseled couples and do not accuse him any longer of not having been married himself. Shift your reasons for dismissing his rational arguments to something else.

1. Has anyone addressed his concern that many couples are practicing NFP from the beginning of their marriage, and his astute observation that if one is not ready for children then one should not marry? This keeps getting ignored or skirted - as do many of the other issues he raises.

You need to keep reading…it’s true a few posters pointed out the OP’s age and LACK of experience, but for at least the last 7 pages, we’ve dealt with why NFP is licit and cannot be considered contraception (yes, it can be abused, but that abuse is NOT THE SIN OF CONTRACEPTION–it would be selfishness). We’ve dealt with reading Catholic documents with the definitions the Church uses. AND we’ve dealt with the fact that NFP users need a just/serious/grave reason to use NFP AND that not every couple has to use NFP. I think most of us agree that a couple who enters a normal Catholic marriage with no INTENT of having children needed better guidance before marriage, however, there might be just cause for the use of NFP early in marriage–that discernment is between the couple, God and a spiritual advisor if needed.

You are of course free to jump in and tell us all how we aren’t answering these points., but it would be great if you had read all the way to the end. We covered A LOT of ground…

 

[Alexander_Smith]

It is ignorance, arrogance, and lack of charity to dare to speculate, judge, evaluate and denigrate what he suspects somehow might be in ANY couple’s hearts and judge their openness to life *based on their number of children or lack of children * or on any comments he heard on the street outside of a marriage bond…

He comes out with ridiculously ignorant speculations and negative judgments of hypothetical others in attempts to justify his negative opinions of NFP.
I have yet to see one single good argument from him. He merely challenges and denigrates the practice of NFP based on nothing but his own speculations as to what he supposes might possibly be in the minds and hearts of others based on the number of children he observes in passing and stray comments of strangers (and possibly friends) on the street.
Who are these people possibly practicing NFP in what he deems some possibly unacceptable way? Since when did the Church grant him license to enter the marriage bonds of others to judge what’s in their minds and hearts in their marriage bonds and practice of NFP? His interest in scrutinizing the minds and hearts of couples practicing NFP seems terribly pornographic.

I have REPEATEDLY addressed his concern. NFP is NOT contraception. There are no certain fertile nor infertile days for conception except in retrospect. NFP charting can only figure the relative probability of conception on any given day, which is all too easily disrupted by illness, infection, stress, hormones, and a whole host of environmental influences. NFP is OBSERVATION, COMMUNICATION, NEGOTIATION, MUTUAL SENSITIVITY, JOINT DECISION MAKING, JOINT ACCEPTANCE OF THE RELATIVE RISK OF PREGNANCY WITH ANY GIVEN MARITAL ACT, and GENUINE PARTNERSHIP in conjugal life and the conception, birthing, and raising of children in marriage.

Of course any married couple, wishing to establish and maintain genuine partnership and mutuality in marriage and conjugal relations, wishes to establish such observations, communication, partnership, and mutuality from the very beginning of their marriage and conjugal relations.

The OP is apparently not interested in establishing observations, communication, joint decision making and jointly accepting responsibility for the relative risk of conceiving a child on any given day when engaging in marital relations. That’s fine, however, it does not give him the right to denigrate the hearts of those who do practice NFP based on his own speculations as to what is in their hearts.

The OP denigrates NFP as reducing marriage to a troublesome undesirable “science project” less desirable than “what his own parents” and others did in times past.
I’m certain that NFP does indeed appear like a “science project” to him, considering the fact that his own parents have apparently demonstrated a dysfunctional alcoholic marriage genuinely lacking in partnership, mutuality, communication, and joint responsibility in the care and raising of children as their own daily working model of marriage and family.

Do you feel that his age and his own personal background model of marriage and family somehow gives him the right to accuse, speculate on, judge, and/or denigrate what he suspects to be in other people’s hearts who practice NFP without having to face anyone’s speculation, judgment, and denigration of what might be in his own heart in return?

I’ve never speculated on any your marriages, nor have I speculated on any real marriages I have witnessed. My previous posts referenced the way NFP was spoken about by people who use it, proponents of NFP in general, and relatives who I know use NFP, and their general attitude about it when discussing it. I am not one to partake in gossip about people’s private lives. Nearly all my examples were hypothetical.

I have no interests in scrutinizing anyone’s minds, since all my information comes from plain discussion with users of NFP. I haven’t assumed that anyone I know uses it, and I don’t care to know. If they choose to tell me, I discuss it with them, just as I have done with you.

Pornographic?

Oh, and don’t bring my parents into this discussion. My criticism of NFP has nothing to do with what my parents have done, and I find it extremely offensive that you would suggest that their lack of NFP use somehow contributed to a dysfunctional marriage. You know nothing about my parents, or their marriage, and I would ask you to kindly leave them out of this discussion.

You need to keep reading…it’s true a few posters pointed out the OP’s age and LACK of experience, but for at least the last 7 pages, we’ve dealt with why NFP is licit and cannot be considered contraception (yes, it can be abused, but that abuse is NOT THE SIN OF CONTRACEPTION–it would be selfishness). We’ve dealt with reading Catholic documents with the definitions the Church uses. AND we’ve dealt with the fact that NFP users need a just/serious/grave reason to use NFP AND that not every couple has to use NFP. I think most of us agree that a couple who enters a normal Catholic marriage with no INTENT of having children needed better guidance before marriage, however, there might be just cause for the use of NFP early in marriage–that discernment is between the couple, God and a spiritual advisor if needed.

When using NFP to avoid, a couple already has a contraceptive mindset. In other words, their use of NFP comes from a desire to NOT conceive as a result of any sexual act they may partake in. To facilitate that desire, they abstain from the marital act on days when they are most likely to conceive and do not abstain on days they are highly unlikely to conceive.

I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, I’m just describing as I see it.

 

[jilly4ski]

I’ve read the first 7 pages of this thread, and I have a few things to say:

1. Has anyone addressed his concern that many couples are practicing NFP from the beginning of their marriage, and his astute observation that if one is not ready for children then one should not marry? This keeps getting ignored or skirted - as do many of the other issues he raises.

Since when is anyone ready to have children. It is never the right time, no one (except a select few) has enough money, and the timing always seems off when thinking about children. But for a couple practicing NFP, they have to discuss every month and even everyday, if these or other factors outweigh not having a child and sacrificing their coming together in the marital act.

There indeed might be serious reasons early in marriage that would justify avoiding children for a time, but that didn’t justify putting marriage off. Indeed one of the ends of marriage is to avoid sin. (That doesn’t mean that a couple can go into marriage thinking they will never have children).

I will tell a little story, and you can at the end tell me how irresponsible I was for either having children or getting married, at that time right after marriage. My Dh and I were going to practice NFP at the beginning of our marriage. I was 22 just graduated undergrad and had been accepted into law school at a good law school 1000 miles from our family state. So my Dh and I (how had been dating 5 years) got married and moved out to NY for law school. I got pregnant on our “honeymoon” (we did not take a real honeymoon"). My dh could not find a job for 6 months and finally got a very low paying job. 9.25/hr.

Meanwhile I was experiencing a very difficult pregnancy, I was very tired and throwing up everyday while trying to get my school work done. I had to go on medicaid in order to get health care and also went on WIC. After a year of struggling to pay our bills we went on food stamps. If school work was more difficult for me I probably would have “flunked out” like one of my single friends who couldn’t hack it, but I pulled off almost B average my first 2 years.

That’s right, I had my baby took a week off and went back to school to take my finals.

I am now pregnant again because my dh convinced me that we didn’t need to abstain and we could handle another child with God’s grace, even though I was a little hesitant. So now I am due right after fall finals. My kids will be 20 months apart.

You see, even though we had ample reason to practice NFP before we got pregnant we didn’t use it to avoid because we did not see it worth waiting any longer than the 5 years we had waited. You see it is very difficult to use. Many people I am sure will be very upset that I had a child I could not afford, saying we were not responsible. Others in the same situation could legitimately decide to use NFP with no sin.

Maybe this is why I feel strongly about this issue. Because some would say we sinned because we did not follow responsible parenthood ideals, but if we had put off having children others would say we sinned for ‘selfishly’ using NFP or using NFP with a “contraceptive mentality.” It cannot be both, but perhaps it is neither.

 

[peregrinator_it]

I’ve read the first 7 pages of this thread, and I have a few things to say:

If you are going to judge a 30 page thread on less than 1/4 of it, you must realize that you may get an inaccurate perception-- just as if you tried to review a book without having read 3/4 of its contents.

1. He comes out with some good arguments founded on reasonable (albeit debatable) grounds, and the responses are mainly ad hominem while the rational points he makes are often not directly or not at all responded to by many (though not all) of the posters.

The OP started with his personal impression of NFP users- specifically NFP users on this forum!

I am only 18, not likely to be married any time soon, but I still wanted to express my sadness over the number of topics in this sub-forum about Natural Family Planning, and the mentality that it is “required” for a good Catholic marriage.

This may be calm and charitable (?? although is fraternal correction fraternal when you do not know the people involved and cannot know their circumstance?)

1. He is continually told that he is 18 and has no real-life experience with this, and thus his points can be disregarded. SNIP The fallacy in this argument was pointed out by a poster early-on, but that has not stopped the continual reference to his age and lack of experience - this is usually indicative, as was already pointed out, that it is the easiest way to dismiss someone’s arguments, especially when one is unable to use reason and good counter-arguments - SNIP

This is what happens when you have a conversation that is simply battling anecdotes, but the OP seems to want this sort of conversation.

You can’t have arguments (in the philosophical sense) at all if you are simply asking everyone’s experiences to be the basis of the conversation. The only way to avoid this situation (as historians and “Great Books” types and some philosophers (! before Descartes) know) is to discuss “source material.”

For a Catholic, “source material”, is Church teaching. The teaching is where a Catholic must start.

It doesn’t take someone who is married with children to understand Catholic teaching.

Now this is absolutely true. However in order to discuss Catholic teaching one must (as you rightly say) understand it. We on this thread cannot seem to come to a common reading of Church teaching. IMO this is largely because some posters, with whom the OP has allied himself, have criticized Church teaching because it does not support their personal opinion.

c. And I don’t think we need to point out what is wrong with the argument that someone who has never married cannot speak about these issues. For those who are wondering what I am getting at, here it is: John Paul II was never married. If you want to respond, “but JP2 studied this” or “he counseled a lot of couples”, etc., that’s fine -

Whoa. I only brought up JPII because in the course of this conversation there was confusion about the theological terms used in the teaching. JPII had a lot to do with the theological terminology used today. In order to understand the teaching you must understand the terminology. (Just as you can’t understand Plato if you’re running around thinking “forms” means “papers you must fill in for certain bureaucracies.”)

1. Has anyone addressed his concern that many couples are practicing NFP from the beginning of their marriage, and his astute observation that if one is not ready for children then one should not marry? This keeps getting ignored or skirted - as do many of the other issues he raises.

This is an example of anecdote… how can one respond to this and keep a charitable conversation? It simply implies that NFP users are either not ready for marriage or sinning. Not a good place to start.

 

[jilly4ski]

When using NFP to avoid, a couple already has a contraceptive mindset. In other words, their use of NFP comes from a desire to NOT conceive as a result of any sexual act they may partake in. To facilitate that desire, they abstain from the marital act on days when they are most likely to conceive and do not abstain on days they are highly unlikely to conceive.

I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, I’m just describing as I see it.

And we keep telling you that you are using the wrong words because that is not how the church defines ‘contraceptive’ or indeed how society defines ‘contraceptive.’

And you are contradicting yourself. The title of this thread is “Sadness over NFP misuse/misunderstanding,” thus you assumed/judged that at least some people misuse or misunderstand the Church’s teaching on NFP, because otherwise you wouldn’t be sad. Those with experience have repeatedly told you that while theoretically possible, that practically this is very difficult.

 

[Julianna]

Since when is anyone ready to have children. It is never the right time, no one (except a select few) has enough money, and the timing always seems off when thinking about children. But for a couple practicing NFP, they have to discuss every month and even everyday, if these or other factors outweigh not having a child and sacrificing their coming together in the marital act.

There indeed might be serious reasons early in marriage that would justify avoiding children for a time, but that didn’t justify putting marriage off. Indeed one of the ends of marriage is to avoid sin. (That doesn’t mean that a couple can go into marriage thinking they will never have children).

I will tell a little story, and you can at the end tell me how irresponsible I was for either having children or getting married, at that time right after marriage. My Dh and I were going to practice NFP at the beginning of our marriage. I was 22 just graduated undergrad and had been accepted into law school at a good law school 1000 miles from our family state. So my Dh and I (how had been dating 5 years) got married and moved out to NY for law school. I got pregnant on our “honeymoon” (we did not take a real honeymoon"). My dh could not find a job for 6 months and finally got a very low paying job. 9.25/hr.

Meanwhile I was experiencing a very difficult pregnancy, I was very tired and throwing up everyday while trying to get my school work done. I had to go on medicaid in order to get health care and also went on WIC. After a year of struggling to pay our bills we went on food stamps. If school work was more difficult for me I probably would have “flunked out” like one of my single friends who couldn’t hack it, but I pulled off almost B average my first 2 years.

That’s right, I had my baby took a week off and went back to school to take my finals.

I am now pregnant again because my dh convinced me that we didn’t need to abstain and we could handle another child with God’s grace, even though I was a little hesitant. So now I am due right after fall finals. My kids will be 20 months apart.

You see, even though we had ample reason to practice NFP before we got pregnant we didn’t use it to avoid because we did not see it worth waiting any longer than the 5 years we had waited. You see it is very difficult to use. Many people I am sure will be very upset that I had a child I could not afford, saying we were not responsible. Others in the same situation could legitimately decide to use NFP with no sin.

Maybe this is why I feel strongly about this issue. Because some would say we sinned because we did not follow responsible parenthood ideals, but if we had put off having children others would say we sinned for ‘selfishly’ using NFP or using NFP with a “contraceptive mentality.” It cannot be both, but perhaps it is neither.

Congrats to you on your success with school! My kiddos are 21 months apart and were planned on what I call cycle babies…because the second one, I wanted to be born around my dad’s birthday in July. I had a c-section so I could pick the day. turns out she was 7 days early. We waited two years after marriage for having children, but at the time we didn’t practice NFP because I was on the pill. I believe I posted the story of what that did to me. YIKES.

No couple is every “ready” to have children. While in theory it is good to wait until it is a “good time”…it doesn’t always work out that way. Charting is a pain in the rear and I often felt that it was the “womans” responsibilty handle the whole thing. Totally insane…we quit before we even started. It is not a guarantee. The pill worked with serious mental side effects.

You actually have the perfect spacing as they will grow up together and leave home about the same time…and you and hubby can enjoy the empty nest years a lot sooner.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Quoting Jilly4ski:

Do you see how difficult it would be to practice this without prayer/discernment, mutual consent, and a very grave reason. People who don’t have a grave reason are going to cut corners and by cutting corners they are saying well, I am not ready for a child right now but I am open to the possibility since I am not following NFP in the strictest sense.

Yes. This part is true. And, it is also part of the intruction in various methods of NFP. Any activity on a fertile day is considered “using the method to conceive.”

 

[PaulinVA]

Originally Posted by PaulinVA forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*I think you have missed the mark. Hopefully someone else can respond fully to your post.

I will have to check out now. Going to be hiking the Appalachian Trail for a few days…*

Please tell me you’re taking your wife and not playing politician…

Have fun!

Heh, heh. I had forgotten about that new meaning for “hiking the Appalachian Trail.”!

Yes, my wife and teen-aged daughters. We were sorta roughing it (no A/C, no TV) and had a blast. Missed the thunderstorms, no twisted ankles, generally a good time was had by all.

 

[momor]

Please accept that what I am writing is not pointing a finger at ANY individual. It is all intended to a general group and the use of the word ‘you’ is not personal.

Some of you are objecting to the use of the word contraceptive or to the idea of a contraceptive mind-set in conjunction with NFP use. But some also appear to be defending the use of NFP at the outset of marriage. How is that not a contraceptive approach to marriage? What is the fundamental purpose of marriage for the vast majority of Catholics (not the relative few who are infertile) if not a structure for family and the rearing of children? If you marry before you are ready to have children and do so in order to avoid sin are you not in effect separating the unitive from the procreative aspect of sex right from the start of your marriage?

Some of you argue that NFP cannot be consistent with a contraceptive mindset because of how difficult it is to follow. IMO you are proving the contraceptive mind-set without even realizing it. When you imply that you are having to sacrifice in order to have the little bit of sex you do get it seems that you are focusing on a **right **to have the unitive aspect of sex rather than the whole of what marital sex IS SUPPOSED to be. Do you not see how this attitude is a reflection of our over-sexed culture that says sex without children is a right? Popular culture says we should all be able to have all the sex we want and carefully plan our children around it. Before ABC and modern NFP, couples understood that every act of intercourse came with a heavy responsibility and their attitude about sex was different. There was a reverence and an awe and a specialness to it that has been lost. That has been the prevailing view of sex throughtout human history. It’s only in the last century that technology has allowed a change in attitude to come about. Today’s couples of child rearing age have been steeped in the popular media portrayal of sex. In prior years couples had no such expectations about having the active sex life portrayed as the norm today.

I think NFP is simply a relaxation of natural law morality, not a marital right. The Church recognizes that there are exceptional times within marriage when having another child would truly be too burdensome and when a couple is under that pressure the Church has allowed them a temporary way to maintain the emotional bonds of marriage. I don’t think it was ever intended to be the norm within marriage, but I do think the NFP movement has essentially bought into the popular mind-set about sex.

You may not agree with me but hopefully I have explained where I am coming from a little better and why I have challenged what you accept as OK because it’s “Church teaching”. I think NFP should be seen as an exceptional gift from the Church in recognition of how hard it is to be chaste in our world today.

 

[mark_a]

I am only 18, not likely to be married any time soon, but I still wanted to express my sadness over the number of topics in this sub-forum about Natural Family Planning, and the mentality that it is “required” for a good Catholic marriage.

I understand that there are good reasons for some couples to use NFP, but it seems to me that is being used as more of a “Catholic contraceptive” than anything else these days. Whenever I hear young couples talking about their marriages or future marriages, I hear about NFP. The thing is, NFP is okay for certain purposes, but it is not necessary for Catholic marriage, and in some cases it can be destructive, and maybe even sinful for couples that are healthy enough, and financially stable enough to have children.

The fact is, NFP is not supposed to be used to avoid children altogether like condoms or birth control pills. If you are using it in your marriage with a mentality of convenience rather than necessity, than you probably shouldn’t be using it!

It breaks my heart to see threads on this forum and other forums, from unhappy husbands or wives talking about how their use of NFP is making their marriage difficult or unhappy. IMO A healthy, financially stable couple has no reason to use NFP.

Natural Family Planning should not be to appease immature Catholic couples who view children as an obnoxious byproduct of sex. Men and women preparing for marriage should be preparing for children as well by anticipating the financial needs and emotional needs of bringing up children, and preparing themselves mentally for that responsibility.

To conclude this post. I firmly believe that NFP is something that should be considered only if there is a real reason to avoid conception temporarily. I also believe that abstinence serves the same purpose for shorter periods of time. Both methods require REAL reasons to use. There is something seriously morally wrong with a young, healthy financially stable couple that uses NFP as soon as they are married.

By the way, I fully understand that NFP can be used to help achieve conception as well, that’s definitely a good thing! My argument is about the preventative aspect of NFP, and how it is, in my opinion, misused.

You are wise well beyond your 18 years!

Best wishes to you and your future family!

 

[PaulinVA]

You may not agree with me but hopefully I have explained where I am coming from a little better and why I have challenged what you accept as OK because it’s “Church teaching”. I think NFP should be seen as an exceptional gift from the Church in recognition of how hard it is to be chaste in our world today.

I accept Church teaching because it is Church teaching. You can’t pick and choose which teachings you believe, and you can’t relax the teaching on one side or an attempt to make it stronger on another. It’s simply the teaching.

Can couples use NFP without a just/serious/grave reason? Yes, they can. Can couples use NFP with a just/serious/grave reason? Yes, they can.

Can you tell which is which? No, you can not tell by looking at the couple whether they have the requisite reason. One factor is that there is no list of reasons.

So, I’m left wondering what you want from this discussion.

 

[momor]

I accept Church teaching because it is Church teaching. You can’t pick and choose which teachings you believe, and you can’t relax the teaching on one side or an attempt to make it stronger on another. It’s simply the teaching.

Can couples use NFP without a just/serious/grave reason? Yes, they can. Can couples use NFP with a just/serious/grave reason? Yes, they can.

Can you tell which is which? No, you can not tell by looking at the couple whether they have the requisite reason. One factor is that there is no list of reasons.

So, I’m left wondering what you want from this discussion.

My only purpose is to stimulate discussion and critical thinking. Are you following Church teaching or only what you think is Church teaching because you heard it interpreted for you in a class or a book or here on CAF, etc.?

If you examine the points critically, with detachment, and without defensiveness do you come to the same conclusion you hold now? How much of popular culture forms your view of a sexual relationship versus the timelessness of God’s Natural Law?

 

[former_Catholic]

When using NFP to avoid, a couple already has a contraceptive mindset. In other words, their use of NFP comes from a desire to NOT conceive as a result of any sexual act they may partake in. To facilitate that desire, they abstain from the marital act on days when they are most likely to conceive and do not abstain on days they are highly unlikely to conceive.
I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, I’m just describing as I see it.

As YOU see it…
pray tell exactly from WHERE do you see anyone’s mindset and practices when it comes to NFP? Ha! From under their bed?

Yes, I do regard your interest in and speculations and musings on OTHER people’s mindsets in their conjugal relations as pornographic in nature. It doesn’t matter what ventings they’ve personally volunteered toward your general direction, Mr. Voyeur, you are NOT either of the marriage partners involved. Having an interest in, speculating about, and musing on the subject of OTHER people’s mindsets and intentions and adherence to their religious beliefs in their marriage bed is pornographic.

Of course you feel that you would never spread gossip about people’s lives and marriages nor scrutinize and judge their “mindset” in their marriage bed….Of course not! You would simply listen to their personal ventings and public discussions, claim they must be representative of some large segment of the NFP practicing community, and publicly denigrate what you speculate to be their attitudes and practices of NFP while calling them hypothetical people…. Why?
Because you are intent on publicly accusing NFP practitioners in general of some nefarious practice and mindset? Because you are intent on gossiping about and publicly denigrating your own friends and relatives behind their backs on a public forum while referring to them as hypothetical people?
Because you’re worried about the integrity and holiness of your own non-existent marriage?
Apparently you have decided you are justified in denigrating the attitudes and practices of NFP practitioners in general or certain “hypothetical” NFP practitioners of whom you have vast personal knowledge and priveleged information…
specifically because individual couples having large numbers of children seem to be less common to you in the modern day than in your parents’ and grandparents’ day… “with each passing generation” you said.

You don’t even appear to realize that along with those large families in your parents’ grandparents’ and great grandparents’ day there were also vast numbers of women who died in childbirth. A woman who survived one birth might survive birthing several more children and end up with a large family, but there were also incredibly vast numbers of women who never survived their first childbirth at all. Today there are vast numbers of women who have managed to survive the birth of a child or two who never would have survived childbirth at all in your parents’ and grandparents’ day…. hence we have an abundance of surviving “small families” in the modern day that didn’t exist a couple of generations ago.

You were the one who brought up the issue of your parents’ and grandparents’ day and used it to challenge the practices of the modern day. You say that in times past couples did not use NFP. They did not bother with all this fussy “science experiment” of observing and charting women’s fertility and striving to communicate, negotiate and make joint decisions about conjugal relations and the relative probability of achieving pregnancy on any given day.
Fine.
I contend that in your parents’ and grandparents’ day, it is true that couples largely did NOT strive to communicate, negotiate, and make joint decisions about conjugal relations and share the risks and responsibilities thereof, and that there was a whole lot of alcoholism, wife beating, marital rape, incest and child abuse, and children who grew up in turn to build likewise dysfunctional families as a result. I’m not talking about your parents. I’m talking about your parents’ generation and mine, and our parents and grandparents and great grandparents all the way back to the Civil War. You cannot compare the complaints and dysfunctions of conjugal bliss in the modern day with the conjugal bliss of couples in your parents’ and grand parents’ day while burying the marital dysfunctions of those generations past under the rug of gross ignorance and Hollywood and Norman Rockwell nostalgia.

 

[ac_claire]

ICan couples use NFP without a just/serious/grave reason? Yes, they can. Can couples use NFP with a just/serious/grave reason? Yes, they can.

Sorry to jump in again at a random moment, but I was wondering about what you just said (bolded) above, Paul. How is that true? I thought the teaching was clear that using NFP to avoid does require a just/serious/grave reason for it to be morally licit?

 

[peregrinator_it]

Can couples use NFP without a just/serious/grave reason? Yes, they can.

Can couples use NFP with a just/serious/grave reason? Yes, they can.
Sorry to jump in again at a random moment, but I was wondering about what you just said (bolded) above, Paul. How is that true? I thought the teaching was clear that using NFP to avoid does require a just/serious/grave reason for it to be morally licit?

I think Paul just meant that “can” in the bolded part as in, “it is possible”, not “can” as in “the Church permits it as morally allowable” because his main point was that it’s bad to generalize about NFP-using couples, since no one not privy to all a couples’ circumstances and mindset could fairly distinguish between just/grave reasons and not just/grave reasons.

 

[PaulinVA]

I think Paul just meant that “can” in the bolded part as in, “it is possible”, not “can” as in “the Church permits it as morally allowable” because his main point was that it’s bad to generalize about NFP-using couples, since no one not privy to all a couples’ circumstances and mindset could fairly distinguish between just/grave reasons and not just/grave reasons.

Yes, that’s it! Thanks.

 

[PaulinVA]

My only purpose is to stimulate discussion and critical thinking. Are you following Church teaching or only what you think is Church teaching because you heard it interpreted for you in a class or a book or here on CAF, etc.?

If you examine the points critically, with detachment, and without defensiveness do you come to the same conclusion you hold now? How much of popular culture forms your view of a sexual relationship versus the timelessness of God’s Natural Law?

Your supposition that someone like me (50, married for 26 years, practicing NFP to conceive and to avoid for 20 years) somehow has not thought it through completely, and could suddenly, at your prodding, see that I’ve been wrong for twenty years is, well, a little funny.

I have been evaluating my decisions and my practice of NFP all the time. I want to do the right thing - of course I do. So does my wife.

This is not a theoretical discussion for a lot of posters on this thread. It is an everyday part of our lives. I’m glad you’re interested in the subject, but people who practice it are not as vacuous and simple-minded as you think. You don’t embark on a course of periodic abstinence without thinking all the issues through.