Sadness over the Divine Office

[phil19034]

Is there anything in the Council Documents or post-Conciliar documents touching on this subject, that you’re aware of?

I’m not aware of any documents (but I haven’t really studied the documents of Vatican II yet).

However, I do know that the Orthodox and Protestant groups were all invited to attend Vatican II (no vote, but they were allowed to express their opinions) .

One of the things that came out of Vatican II was a new, common lectionary among Roman Rite Catholics, Anglicans, Old Catholics, and other mainline Protestants.

 

[spina1953]

Hi Spyridon, I understand where you are coming from I can’t say about the differences between the two as i only use the modern LOTHs. I understand that at some point in time there is a revision of it but don’t know when that might occur. i knew there was a difference between OF and EF but have not read the EF which is why I can’t say what difference there is.

 

[Spyridon]

Here’s another example of something which makes me sad when doing a comparison.

For the Hour of Midday Prayer/Sext, after the Reading there is a Responsory.

Compare the Responsory as found in the current OF:

“The apostles held fast to Christ’s message.
— They kept the precepts he gave them.”

To the Responsory as in the EF:

"The Lord hath chosen him * for a Priest unto Himself.
R. The Lord hath chosen him * for a Priest unto Himself.
V. To offer up unto Him the sacrifice of praise.
R. For a Priest unto Himself.
V. Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, * and to the Holy Ghost.
R. The Lord hath chosen him * for a Priest unto Himself.

V. Thou art a Priest for ever.
R. After the order of Melchisedek"

The loss of all that meaty content is what saddens me, not the actual prayer of the OF itself.

The way I’d like to see that Responsory reformed would be something like this:

“R. The apostles held fast to Christ’s message.
V. The Lord has chosen him * for a Priest unto Himself.
R. They kept the precepts he gave them
V. To offer up unto Him the sacrifice of praise
R. You are a Priest for ever.
R. After the order of Melchisedek.”

 

[twf]

There is a new English translation slated for some point in the next several years. The revised English translation of the OF Mass returned a lot of that “meat” to the propers in particular. Have you ever compared the 1970 English collects to the 2012 (was that the year of the revised translation?) collects? Night and day! It became abundantly clear that in many cases it wasn’t the OF texts themselves that had been “butchered” but rather the 1970 English version… I bet that some of that is going on here with the Office as well.

 

[Spyridon]

that had been “butchered” but rather the 1970 English version… I bet that some of that is going on here with the Office as well.

There’s a distinct possibility of that.

I wish I could get my hands on the African ICEL edition of the English version of the OF Office which has already been translated from the Latin typical edition -

"Liturgy of the Hours (ICEL/African translation)

In 2009, on the occasion of the Synod of African Bishops in Rome, the Catholic Church in Africa, through Paulines Publications Africa, published a new English edition of the Liturgy of the Hours based on the Liturgia Horarum, editio typica altera. The antiphons and orations in this edition are taken from ICEL’s 1975 translation of the Liturgy of the Hours, with independent translations for the offices for the new saints added to the General Roman Calendar as well as the Benedictus and Magnificat antiphons for the 3-year cycle on Sundays added in the Liturgia Horarum, editio typica altera.

The Psalms are taken from the Revised Grail Psalter with the rest of the biblical texts taken from the New American Bible. To-date, this is the only official English edition of the Office that is based on the Liturgia Horarum, editio typica altera."

 

[PetraG]

The Divine Office was not the only thing that was butchered

(EDIT: too strong of language… “altered for the worse” would be more appropriate)

after V2, IMO. However, AFAIK, one can still pray the original Divine Office, so I think it is good that the Church opened up LOTH for the laity in such a way.

Yes. Remember that the Divine Office was not always something the laity were encouraged to pray.
Now we have two versions. I don’t see anything to be sad about.

The problem with that is that for it to be a legitimate participation in the Liturgy of the Church, if one wants to pray the EF Office, one must do it in Latin.

What do you mean by “legitimate participation”? Who do we imagine is the gatekeeper on that?

Has Our Lady ever appeared to anyone and asked that they please, for the sake of the conversion of this sinful and hard-hearted world, pray the Divine Office and, by the the way, be sure to do it in Latin?

There are real public liturgies that have authorities over them to deem what shall be the approved version of prayer among the members of the faithful under their pastoral care. I can see using the word “legitimate” under those circumstances, but it still has little to do with what those with no jurisdiction do or do not find appealing. One hopes their pastors concern themselves chiefly with what is edifying and instructional, yes, but this is a concern that really can be left to the pastors. The rest of us can simply consider it all grist for the virtue of obedience that is largely disinterested with our own preferences.

Outside of that, there are the myriad of options offered to all members of the faithful for their personal prayer. In that case, the prayer needs to be orthodox, of course, but it chiefly needs to be actually prayed so as to turn the soul to greater habitual solicitude towards God and neighbor. Meeting those conditions are all that makes a personal prayer “legitimate.” If what we like improves those things, great. Yes, Latin can turn the heart towards an awareness of being part of a prayer that has spanned every moment in history for centuries. Of course that is legitimate! When it does not have that effect on a soul, though, I think it is a mistake to let anything that could become an unnecessary and unprofitable burden creep in. What serves the ultimate purposes of prayer, keep. What does not, don’t spend time worrying about it or quantifying it or any of the rest.

 

[Spyridon]

What I meant was:

For the EF to count as liturgical prayer it must be prayed in Latin.

I am aware it can be prayed as a private devotional in English.

But it must be done in Latin to be an official liturgical service of the Church.

If I’m going to spend the time to pray a Liturgical Prayer of the Church, I want my prayers to be joined with the rest of the Church’s in a Liturgical manner, so as to advance not only my own personal devotion and salvation, but also the devotion of the whole People of God and salvation of the whole world.

 

[Spyridon]

Do you know by any chance -

Is there any approved version of the LOTH, a monastic version or what have you, which uses a 1 week Psalter?

 

[Spyridon]

Also, does anybody know if the Agpeya - the Coptic Orthodox version of the Office - is approved for use in the Coptic Catholic, and by extension then to all the Catholic Churches?

http://www.agpeya.org

 

[twf]

The Benedictines definitely have a one week psalter Office that was reformed after the Council… ans presumably available in English.

 

[Spyridon]

Is there a version of the Benedictine Office available to the general public?

There’s a Benedictine Abbey a few miles from me - I should go there and see if they can hook me up with their version of the Office.

I’m disabled and don’t work - I would like to dedicate more of my time to praying the Church’s liturgy in a more ascetic-monastic manner than what I can with the OF Roman Office.

But it’s very important to me it be an approved liturgical version which I pray.

 

[twf]

I would reach out directly to the local abbey. That’s probably your best bet.

 

[angelic06]

Re: Ordinariate divine office

While the daily office is still awaiting approval from the Holy See, a gentleman who has connections with the chancery in Houston publishes the proposed texts on his website. There are morning prayer and evening prayer conference calls each day. (I do not participate in the calls, but I do print out the text.)

PM me if interested.

 

[Spyridon]

the daily office is still awaiting approval from the Holy See, a gentleman who has connections with the chancery in Houston publishes the proposed texts on his website. There are morning prayer and evening prayer conference calls each day. (I do not participate in the calls, but I do print out the text).

PM me if interested.

I am interested, but not in praying it in the pre-publication state it’s in right now.

Once it’s fully approved and published I will seriously look into adopting it as the form of the Office which I use.

I wish there was an Ordinariate Form Church near me - I think that would be the ultimate form of a Latin Rite which I would participate in if I had the choice.

From what I’ve seen the Anglican Ordinariates are my dream Liturgies, incoporating much of the things I perceive to be pro’s from the OF Roman Rite while also retaining much of the ornate Liturgy of the EF Roman Rite.

 

[OraLabora]

The Benedictines definitely have a one week psalter Office that was reformed after the Council… ans presumably available in English.

Monastic schema B would be the easiest one week Benedictine psalter (the Cistercians also use it), as it has the entire psalter in 1 week. It’s what I use, most of the time; otherwise I use the LOTH if I am tired or more pressed for time. I don’t know of any English versions. Monasteries are notorious for putting together their own office sheets or books, in spiral bindings, or three ring binders, or whatever. I do know and have a French version, alas long out of print. Otherwise you could sort of concoct one using the LOTH for everything except the psalms and putting together a psalter from on-line resources. But you won’t have the common of monks and nuns if you do that, and not the Benedictine calendar either. Moreover, unless you’re a Benedictine (either religious, or an oblate), the LOTH is your Office as well as everyone else’s.

Honestly, a 1 week psalter is tough for the laity. I can cope as I’m retired, but no way when I was still working (I insist on chanting the Office, at least when at home). Schema B does all 150 psalms in a week. Schema A does them all with many repetitions so you pray 250+ psalms in a week. Way out of my league and in fact way out of the league of many monasteries these days what with ageing and declining communities putting a greater burden of work on fewer monks. For most the LOTH is good.

For the OP if you don’t like today’s hymn, the Latin hymn is unchanged from pre-Conciliar days. You can use the Liber Hymnarius (in Latin).

That said, I am a huge fan of the current LOTH, as is most clergy that use it. It’s simply way more realistic for today’s realities. The trend to simpler offices for diocesan clergy in fact started under Pius X when he simplified the Divine Office from the 250 psalms (very similar to the original monastic Office) of the prior Office, to the 150 of his reforms. Even then, that wasn’t enough. We have to remember that in those days, a parish rectory would usually have 2 or more priests to share the workload. Now it’s not unusual for one priest to share 4 parishes.

There are many, many improvements and restorations of tradition in the LOTH as well in spite of the shorter psalmody (one can argue that the true tradition is a fixed number of psalms over a fixed time span, as the Desert Fathers prayed all 150 in a day!). It would take another long post to list them all.

One of the most important points to retain about the LOTH. It’s not all about me. It’s the public prayer of the Church for all of her members. We join in that prayer, not the other way around.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If I’m going to spend the time to pray a Liturgical Prayer of the Church, I want my prayers to be joined with the rest of the Church’s in a Liturgical manner, so as to advance not only my own personal devotion and salvation, but also the devotion of the whole People of God and salvation of the whole world.

I can understand this as long as it’s understood as just a preference of yours. I don’t think there is such rigorous conditions on how our prayers join with the rest of the Church to advance the salvation of the world.

When I begin to pray an Office (which will not be happening for a while due to other prayer devotion commitments, but might happen later), I’m probably going to use an old form because I like it better. And I’m pretty sure God will hear that prayer just like he hears the new versions that some others like.

Time is irrelevant to God, so if it absolutely had to be joined with others praying the same prayer, God could very easily join my Office prayer with those Catholics who prayed it back in Dublin in 1870 or whenever. Which to me is actually a rather nice thought.

 

[Spyridon]

When I begin to pray an Office (which will not be happening for a while due to other prayer devotion commitments, but might happen later), I’m probably going to use an old form because I like it better. And I’m pretty sure God will hear that prayer just like he hears the new versions that some others like.

That’s true but think of it like this:

Would reading an unofficial English translation of the Mass as said in the year 1900 be the same as attending a Mass today and participating in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?

It’s the same difference with the Office:

While praying an older form of the Office in an unapproved English translation is perfectly fine to do as a private devotion, it is not quite the same as praying the Office as an official Church Liturgy to advance the peace and salvation of the whole World.

 

[OraLabora]

There is a new English translation slated for some point in the next several years. The revised English translation of the OF Mass returned a lot of that “meat” to the propers in particular. Have you ever compared the 1970 English collects to the 2012 (was that the year of the revised translation?) collects? Night and day! It became abundantly clear that in many cases it wasn’t the OF texts themselves that had been “butchered” but rather the 1970 English version… I bet that some of that is going on here with the Office as well.

Yes and you can licitly use the collects of the Mass as well, instead of those of the LOTH, when praying an Office.

 

[Spyridon]

Thanks for the reply @OraLabora, I always look forward to your (name removed by moderator)ut on these subjects.

Just to reiterate, I love the OF Office and didn’t want to denigrate it at all. I guess my biggest “issue” with it, is when I finish an Office, I’m always longing for more. I find the OF to be too streamlined, too slim for my personal desire.

I think part of my frustration is the fact that I personally prefer the Office as found in the EF but I do not speak Latin and much prefer to pray in English, yet there is no way to pray the EF in English as an official liturgical prayer -

Hence my excitement and anticipation for the Anglican Ordinariate to publish their form of the Office - I think that would be the Office which would be most appropriate for me and my personal vocation and condition of life.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think maybe you just need to learn Latin
Problem solved?

Really it’s not that hard to learn.

(I’d pray it in Swahili before I’d touch anything put out by the Anglicans, but that’s my hangup. )