Saint Ambrose to Saint Augustine (Movie) - Truth find us - Pls help me understand

  • Thread starter Thread starter GodHeals
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
G

GodHeals

Guest
Hi,

MY FACEBOOK ORIGINAL POST:
“In the 2012 film Restless Heart, which tells the life story of the father of modern Western philosophy, St. Ambrose tells St. Augustine: “It’s not the man who finds the truth, it’s the truth that finds the man: because the Truth is a person. It’s Jesus Christ, the Son of God.”” (lifesitenews link below) - lifesitenews.com/news/from-a-volunteer-for-obama-to-a-pro-life-republican-my-journey
I just saw the full length 4 or so hour San Agustin – amazon.com/San-Agustin-Convertio-Augustine-Decline/dp/B005GI6SJ8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383118508&sr=8-1&keywords=san+agustin – which i think is the same as the just released US version (link above in quote) and was captivated by some of the quotes regarding Truth. My Muslim friend and I dialoged as below, but I don’t really know how to respond. How should I respond to him. What did St. Ambrose mean the Truth finds us? I thought God and each of us kind of reach towards each other (God and Man) in some way, or that God seeks us mainly, because He is faithful when we aren’t faithful to Him.

Thanks for the help!
Brian

Friend:
“MAN finds the truth. The truth does NOT find the man ! ! ! So St Ambrose is WRONG ! ! !
MAN found out that Earth was a round oval cause he DARED to cross the Atlantic Ocean ! ! ! If man had listened to this guy St Ambrose, man would have strolled the beach for centuries waiting for the Objective Truth of Earth being a round oval to reveal itself & it would have NEVER happened ! ! ! THERE, I PROVED your St Ambrose wrong as well ! ! !”
Me:
“Once a person is found by and receives the Truth (Jesus), they follow it (Him) where it (He) leads, even to the other side of the world.”
Friend:
“Over the centuries, MAN has gone out & FOUND THE TRUTH ! ! ! NOT the other way round.” What is the best way to understand what Saint Ambrose was saying and how should I respond to my friend.
 
Simple. St Ambrose, as he was accustomed to do, was using language in a poetic manner. The statement, as a poetic articulation of a mystery, can only be evaluated aesthetically and mystically.

To your friend. Man does not ‘find the truth’. God Alone, who directs and ordains all, directs us to it, in His mercy. For Mohammed (to whom be Peace), in Holy Koran, writes- “He causeth to err whom He pleases and guideth whom He pleases”, and again, “Allah guideth whomsoever He pleaseth unto the True path.”
 
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. You must know a lot about the Koran to be able to search for those verses! I actually think I remember hearing or reading those verses, as well.

Seems the best way to help him understand is not from our perspective, but from his very own perspective using the Quran. Even though a liberal Muslim not believing everything in the Quran, it seem like a good idea!

Seems you are overly?? respectful of Muslims by using peace be upon him for their prophets? I don’t do that not out disrespect, but because i feel it adds credibility to a false understanding of the One True God, and also tends towards worship of a false god. You don’t think so?

God Bless You!
Brian
 
Hi,

MY FACEBOOK ORIGINAL POST:

I just saw the full length 4 or so hour San Agustin – amazon.com/San-Agustin-Convertio-Augustine-Decline/dp/B005GI6SJ8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383118508&sr=8-1&keywords=san+agustin – which i think is the same as the just released US version (link above in quote) and was captivated by some of the quotes regarding Truth. My Muslim friend and I dialoged as below, but I don’t really know how to respond. How should I respond to him. What did St. Ambrose mean the Truth finds us? I thought God and each of us kind of reach towards each other (God and Man) in some way, or that God seeks us mainly, because He is faithful when we aren’t faithful to Him.

Thanks for the help!
Brian

Friend:

Me:

Friend:
God always makes the first move, it is called Actual Grace. Ambrose may have been speaking about spiritual truth and Faith in Christ, the grace of conversion, the grace to lead a more spirtual truth. I doubt if he was talking about the truth about the structure and laws of nature, since he was a Theologian, not a " scientist. " Augustine had a lot more to say about the natural world, quite a bit in fact.

Your friend is absolutely ignorant. He is just mimiking popular pulp prejudices against Catholics. He was a Doctor of the Church and he converted St. Augustine. He was primarialy a Theologian and was very leaned. I don’t see how your friend could fault him for scientific learning. That is just stupid. He didn’t have time to devote to science, he was trying to defend the Faith.

Show your friend this: newadvent.org/cathen/01383c.htm

Linus2nd
 
God always makes the first move, it is called Actual Grace. Ambrose may have been speaking about spiritual truth and Faith in Christ, the grace of conversion, the grace to lead a more spirtual truth. I doubt if he was talking about the truth about the structure and laws of nature, since he was a Theologian, not a " scientist. " Augustine had a lot more to say about the natural world, quite a bit in fact.

Your friend is absolutely ignorant. He is just mimiking popular pulp prejudices against Catholics. He was a Doctor of the Church and he converted St. Augustine. He was primarialy a Theologian and was very leaned. I don’t see how your friend could fault him for scientific learning. That is just stupid. He didn’t have time to devote to science, he was trying to defend the Faith.

Show your friend this: newadvent.org/cathen/01383c.htm

Linus2nd
Yea, i agree, it seems he was more focused on spiritual Truths, faith and morals, when making that comment, not scientific truths.
 
God’s Prevenient Grace
"It’s not the man who finds the truth, it’s the truth that finds the man: because the Truth is a person. It’s Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
This just means God makes the first move toward mankind, not WE towards God. Even if it seems to us like WE make the first move.

CCC 604 By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: "In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins."408 God "shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us."409

(see also CCC 1828)

This concept is called “God’s prevenient grace.” Again this merely means God makes the first move.

This was defined (but believed before) at the Council of Trent in the 1500’s.

Council of Trent, session 6, chapter 5. = “a predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ” (seen here) = a Dei per dominum Christum Iesum praeveniente gratia".

1st JOHN 4:19 19 We love, because he first loved us.

Hope this helps with your discussion.

God bless.

Cathoholic

PS The denial of God’s prevenient grace is a heresy called “Semipelagianism
 
God’s Prevenient Grace

This just means God makes the first move toward mankind, not WE towards God. Even if it seems to us like WE make the first move.

CCC 604 By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: "In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins."408 God "shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us."409

(see also CCC 1828)

This concept is called “God’s prevenient grace.” Again this merely means God makes the first move.

This was defined (but believed before) at the Council of Trent in the 1500’s.

Council of Trent, session 6, chapter 5. = “a predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ” (seen here) = a Dei per dominum Christum Iesum praeveniente gratia".

1st JOHN 4:19 19 We love, because he first loved us.

Hope this helps with your discussion.

God bless.

Cathoholic

PS The denial of God’s prevenient grace is a heresy called “Semipelagianism
Truth is a Person, is not only a concept a theory or a system like something dependent on the ability of our mind. Truth totally depends on Creator.
 
Ion. You stated:
Truth is a Person, is not only a concept a theory or a system like something dependent on the ability of our mind. Truth totally depends on Creator.
Exactly:thumbsup:. I did not mean to imply otherwise.

JOHN 14:6 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

COUNCIL OF TRENT Decree on Justification (Chapter V) The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, . . . .
 
What I am trying to say GodHeals, is that St. Ambrose was apparently articulating the doctrine of God’s prevenient grace (you are likely already aware of this though) when he said:
“It’s not the man who finds the truth, it’s the truth that finds the man: because the Truth is a person. It’s Jesus Christ, the Son of God.”
The issue you have though is HOW to deal with your Muslim friends’ scoffing at this doctrine of God’s prevenient grace.
  1. First explain to him what is meant by this concept (God’s prevenient grace) to make sure he even knows what he is rejecting.
Even if he doesn’t believe it, at least the concept of this truth is better ingrained in his mind.

But then by all means . . .
  1. Follow Qoeleth’s suggestion and remind your Muslim friend he is denying his own Muslim teachings.
Thanks Qoeleth for bringing this out (I did not know Muslims taught this in some form).

Qoeleth. What if his Muslim friend trots out some other contradictory teaching of Islam to this (they do not affirm the law or principle of non-contradiction with their views of Allah). Then how would you deal with his objection? Also if you don’t mind, how would a Muslim see and define grace in a general sense (not just God’s prevenient grace) as this might be helpful preempting possible objections that the Muslim friend would raise?
 
Hi,

MY FACEBOOK ORIGINAL POST:

I just saw the full length 4 or so hour San Agustin – amazon.com/San-Agustin-Convertio-Augustine-Decline/dp/B005GI6SJ8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383118508&sr=8-1&keywords=san+agustin – which i think is the same as the just released US version (link above in quote) and was captivated by some of the quotes regarding Truth. My Muslim friend and I dialoged as below, but I don’t really know how to respond. How should I respond to him. What did St. Ambrose mean the Truth finds us? I thought God and each of us kind of reach towards each other (God and Man) in some way, or that God seeks us mainly, because He is faithful when we aren’t faithful to Him.

Thanks for the help!
Brian

Friend:

Me:

Friend:
Well, he’s talking about scientific truth, which is quite different.

However, he’s completely wrong about crossing the Atlantic Ocean. People were well aware that the world was a “round oval” long before Columbus crossed the Atlantic. The point of controversy between Columbus and the intellectual establishment of his day was not whether the earth was round or flat (they all agreed it was round) but over how big the earth was.

And in fact Columbus was wrong.

Now to some extent, by analogy, we can perhaps apply this to spiritual truth as well. Seeking what you believe to be true, even if you are wrong, will result in further truth hitting you in the face:p

Bear in mind that this is a movie, and this quote was not said word for word by St. Ambrose. However, as cited it does express very well the core of St. Augustine’s teaching, and St. Augustine certainly looked on St. Ambrose as his mentor in the Faith.

Edwin
 
Hi,

MY FACEBOOK ORIGINAL POST:

I just saw the full length 4 or so hour San Agustin – amazon.com/San-Agustin-Convertio-Augustine-Decline/dp/B005GI6SJ8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383118508&sr=8-1&keywords=san+agustin – which i think is the same as the just released US version (link above in quote) and was captivated by some of the quotes regarding Truth. My Muslim friend and I dialoged as below, but I don’t really know how to respond. How should I respond to him. What did St. Ambrose mean the Truth finds us? I thought God and each of us kind of reach towards each other (God and Man) in some way, or that God seeks us mainly, because He is faithful when we aren’t faithful to Him.

Thanks for the help!
Brian

Friend:

Me:

Friend:
Revelation, the truths God reveals to us for our salvation, is a gift, and the ability to assent to those truths is likewise a gift. Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God and of the knowledge He wishes to impart to humankind.
 
COUNCIL OF TRENT Decree on Justification (Chapter V) The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, . . . .
Prevenient grae is actual grace right? Why the beginning in adults and not children? Not to side track the conversation.
 
Prevenient grae is actual grace right? Why the beginning in adults and not children? Not to side track the conversation.
I believe it’s only because an infant can’t be* called*-so as to respond to or cooperate with grace by an act of the will-as an adult can.
 
What I am trying to say GodHeals, is that St. Ambrose was apparently articulating the doctrine of God’s prevenient grace (you are likely already aware of this though) when he said:

The issue you have though is HOW to deal with your Muslim friends’ scoffing at this doctrine of God’s prevenient grace.
  1. First explain to him what is meant by this concept (God’s prevenient grace) to make sure he even knows what he is rejecting.
Even if he doesn’t believe it, at least the concept of this truth is better ingrained in his mind.

But then by all means . . .
  1. Follow Qoeleth’s suggestion and remind your Muslim friend he is denying his own Muslim teachings.
Thanks Qoeleth for bringing this out (I did not know Muslims taught this in some form).

Qoeleth. What if his Muslim friend trots out some other contradictory teaching of Islam to this (they do not affirm the law or principle of non-contradiction with their views of Allah). Then how would you deal with his objection? Also if you don’t mind, how would a Muslim see and define grace in a general sense (not just God’s prevenient grace) as this might be helpful preempting possible objections that the Muslim friend would raise?
In Islamic theology, there is, in general, less use of the vocabulary of grace. It is more simple obedience of what God has commanded, and belief that God disposes things as He wills.

It is interesting to note, if its hadn’t been for the Augustine/Pelagius debate and then Catholic/Lutheran disputes, Christian theology perhaps wouldn’t have developed so much emphasis on the doctrine of Grace.

But, I don’t think the position that “God reveals His Truth to whom He chooses” would be disputed by any Muslim, since it is states many time in the Koran. But whether this amount to Grace, I don’t know…
 
GodHeals. You asked . . .
Prevenient grace is actual grace right? Why the beginning in adults and not children? Not to side track the conversation.
Good question. Certainly God HAS to make the first move on humanity and not the other way around (and I can tell, that you know that too but other readers may not).

I had wondered the same thing many years ago and went back and re-read it all in context and here is what I came up with . . . .

The context of THAT section of Trent has to do with WORKS IN GRACE.

Since babies cannot be expected to carry out works of charity, I think the Council didn’t want someone objecting and saying: “Well what about babies? How can THEY do works?”

So when the Council talks of “adults” in this section, they are pre-empting that objection.

They are NOT trying to say here, “Well adults need God’s prevenient grace, but not babies.”

Everyone including babies need God’s prevenient grace (and again I know YOU know that) and the Council just matter of factly taught that elsewhere.

The adults need to freely assent to it AND COOPERATE with it.

CANON III. (From Trent, Sixth Session) If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

It will become clearer I think if I use a larger quote for more context.

COUNCIL OF TRENT Decree on Justification (Chapter V) The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.

Baptized individuals possess the gifts of faith, hope, and charity (see CCC 1266), but the infants usually cannot EXPRESS these gifts publicly (although here is at least one exception to infants or “sucklings” not being able to show or express these gifts).

I hope this helps.

God bless.

Cathoholic

Edit:

Sorry. I just realized fhansen already answered it.
I believe it’s only because an infant can’t be called-so as to respond to or cooperate with grace by an act of the will-as an adult can.
 
Thank you Qoeleth.
In Islamic theology, there is, in general, less use of the vocabulary of grace. It is more simple obedience of what God has commanded, and belief that God disposes things as He wills . . . . I don’t think the position that “God reveals His Truth to whom He chooses” would be disputed by any Muslim, since it is states many time in the Koran.
This brings the Muslim who was mocking the concept of God’s prevenient grace, right back to what you pointed out earlier. He is in essence mocking Islam too.
 
Thank you Qoeleth.

This brings the Muslim who was mocking the concept of God’s prevenient grace, right back to what you pointed out earlier. He is in essence mocking Islam too.
Thank you for all of your help!

So, infant baptism would also have to have been desired by the parents through the sanctifying grace working in them… not sure who prevenient / actual grace is necessary for infants to be saved. Can you explain? Thanks!
 
GodHeals. You said (bold mine),
So, infant baptism would also have to have been desired by the parents through the sanctifying grace working in them… not sure who prevenient / actual grace is necessary for infants to be saved. Can you explain? Thanks!
I am sorry I just don’t know how grace works in that kind of detail.

I do know God makes the first move upon us and not the other way around.

That’s about as far as I can get concerning your question.

1st JOHN 4:19 19 We love, because he first loved us.

Sorry I could not be of more help.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top