Saint Francis Didn't Say

[Catholic_Dude]

Actually those words just came off the top of my head, I dont think St Francis ever wrote a letter to “Abbot Jonathan” (if such a person ever existed).

I was just trying to show that such issues as “St Francis didnt say” dont really mean much in terms of whether or not Im Catholic or in any way discrediting St Francis.

 

[awfulthings9]

Catholic Dude:

Actually those words just came off the top of my head, I dont think St Francis ever wrote a letter to “Abbot Jonathan” (if such a person ever existed).

I was just trying to show that such issues as “St Francis didnt say” dont really mean much in terms of whether or not Im Catholic or in any way discrediting St Francis.

How funny. And here, I thought I had been trumped. I started to suspect you were playing with us when I was unable to google anything remotely close to what you had put. Anyway, I’d like to refer everyone back to my original post, which is the actual story from which this quote comes. Who knows if this story is true or myth, but the point is that only the quote as it stands fits.

Incidentally, I have now decided that I don’t much care for the apocryphal words of Marie Antoinette, which I think were just devise in the 1970’s as a clever ploy to promote French pastry. I’m changing the quote. From now on, I believe that she really said, “Let them eat salmon, the wonder food (as long as it’s farm-raised).”

 

[Contarini]

john654:

Hi,
I have been doing research, and have been asking people for years, to tell me where Saint Francis said, "Preach the gospel always, and if necessary use words.

The answer is simple. You can’t find where he said this because he didn’t use words . . . . .

Edwin

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Catholic Dude:

Actually those words just came off the top of my head, I dont think St Francis ever wrote a letter to “Abbot Jonathan” (if such a person ever existed).
.

Please refrain from that!! :tsktsk:

I’m not a moderator, but if I were, well, I’m not!!

 

[joeysmom]

Contarini:

The answer is simple. You can’t find where he said this because he didn’t use words . . . . .

Edwin

 

[gryskull]

john654:

Hi,

Peace to all of you. I didn’t think that anyone could show me where he St. francis said thath. I also didn’t think that anyone would really care.

That sayin was one of the worst sayings to ever be used against the word of God. It validated relativism.

John

How could that be against the word of God? How could that have validated relativism? I don’t know how you could hate someone like St. Francis, at least his saying? What was wrong with what he said? Or maybe you understood it differently. Well, if you did let me tell you what it meant.

St. Francis wanted to actualize(live out) the gospel. He would rather have people see Jesus in Him thru his actions and the way he lived rather than what he said. That was his method because actions speak louder that words. Wouldn’t Jesus want it that way. That is teachings be lived out rather than just be preached. Isn’t that the reason why he condemned that pharisees? For preaching and not living the law.

Now that you know why he said that do you still believe that is was wrong that he said it?

P.S.
Can’t believe one can hate my favorite saint.

 

[awfulthings9]

gryskull:

How could that be against the word of God? How could that have validated relativism? I don’t know how you could hate someone like St. Francis, at least his saying? What was wrong with what he said? Or maybe you understood it differently. Well, if you did let me tell you what it meant.

Now that you know why he said that do you still believe that is was wrong that he said it?

P.S.
Can’t believe one can hate my favorite saint.

As much as I disagree with the OP in this thread, and as much as I have argued against him, I do have to jump in in his defense here. I don’t think he ever actually said he “hates” St. Francis or that what he said is against the word of God. He just thinks, incorrectly, that St. Francis’ quote was “invented” in the 60’s to defend relativism. I think, in his own way, he actually believes he is defending St. Francis against liberal theology. I wouldn’t take it as a personal attack on St. Francis. In heart, while I disagree with the OP, I recognize that he is a solid Catholic who is simply trying to make the great point that we must really be the church militant and preach it, brother.

 

[john654]

Hi,
Sorry, my first post caused some confusion.

You can all have the last word, but it didn’t take long for me to be told that I, was arrogant, and need to take the beam from my eye.

I posted this so that the younger Catholics, that come here, could here the truth about how this saying was used. It was amazing how fast the verses about the beam in your brothers eye came up. Thet’s exactly wher the nuns went in the 60’s. hen right after that they would call you “Judgmental and uncharitable”. That would usually do it, people who were still searching for the truth would shut up!

Reality check: This stament, I don’t know where it came from, was used against anyone who tried to speak the truth in the 60’s and 70’s. SORRY, that’s the truth.

The fact that Saint Francis didn’t say it, and it was used to make him look like a weak, "Non-judgemental, liberal, never say anything to anyone about sin, don’t mention Hell, love is relative, moral weakling. This was a sick attempt by the liberal clergy to destroy the Church. It didn’t work. I now love Saint Francis. Saint Francis was a strong GREAT preacher who NEVER compromised his love for the Truth. The Truth is Jesus.

For the Catholic who posted the “remove the beam from your own eye” verse, check those verses again, and see if it says that the beam CAN be removed. Really, can the beam be removed from a persons eye.

SAINT FRANCIS NEVER SAID: “Preach the Gospel always, and if necessary use words”. SO if a liberal ever uses that saying to shut you up, Be like Saint Francis and preach the Gospel.

I am only trying to help.

For anyone who doesn’t like my style, I’m sorry. UNLESS your liberal. Then just stand corrected and admonished. I don’t want anyone messing with the good name of a Catholic Saint who gave his life to Jesus.

FACT: The liberals have used this statment againt the Truth for TOO long.

I’m sorry, I just can’t stand any more catholic wimps.

Obedience,
John

 

[awfulthings9]

john654:

Hi,
Sorry, my first post caused some confusion.

You can all have the last word, but it didn’t take long for me to be told that I, was arrogant, and need to take the beam from my eye.

Actually, nobody told you to take the beam from your eye. Go back and actually read that post. Her words were that she wanted to give some verses to tell you what the St. Francis quote meant to her. That was one of her examples and she didn’t direct it at you. If you want to say she applied it to you, please quote where she said that.

john654:

I posted this so that the younger Catholics, that come here, could here the truth about how this saying was used. It was amazing how fast the verses about the beam in your brothers eye came up. Thet’s exactly wher the nuns went in the 60’s. hen right after that they would call you “Judgmental and uncharitable”. That would usually do it, people who were still searching for the truth would shut up!

Actually, not a person in here disagreed with you. I actually agree that it was probably used in this manner, and I think I might have said that above. Our beef is that, just because it was used in this fashion doesn’t mean it was “invented” then. For instance, many people use “eye for an eye” to justify capital punishment when it was historically a restriction on revenge. That doesn’t mean these people invented it - they are just misusing it, just as people might have been with the St. Francis quote.

john654:

For the Catholic who posted the “remove the beam from your own eye” verse, check those verses again, and see if it says that the beam CAN be removed. Really, can the beam be removed from a persons eye.

That poster never said it could be removed. Nobody in here did.

john654:

I’m sorry, I just can’t stand any more catholic wimps.

You’re right. You aren’t arrogant. Or judgemental. Anyone who thinks it is okay to model Christian behavior in a subtle way once in a while truly is a wimp, right?

 

[tom.wineman]

Try this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=82041

for advice from the Holy Spirit on wordless prayer.

 

[gryskull]

awfulthings9:

As much as I disagree with the OP in this thread, and as much as I have argued against him, I do have to jump in in his defense here. I don’t think he ever actually said he “hates” St. Francis or that what he said is against the word of God. He just thinks, incorrectly, that St. Francis’ quote was “invented” in the 60’s to defend relativism. I think, in his own way, he actually believes he is defending St. Francis against liberal theology. I wouldn’t take it as a personal attack on St. Francis. In heart, while I disagree with the OP, I recognize that he is a solid Catholic who is simply trying to make the great point that we must really be the church militant and preach it, brother.

Now that he has said more about his intent, I stand corrected. But if you read his first post, it is quite misleading, and that I think is the reason why people have misinterpreted him, at least his intent. You and others, including me, can only critic him on his words and the way we read it. It is not like we can hear his voice or had more info as to judge his intent. I definitely agree with him that we cannot waver when it comes to the truth. That is false ecumenism and I think everyone who has posted in this thread would agree with me. But I think you can see where we are coming from. But in the case of what St. Francis has said, i definitely would disagree with him. That saying is based on a long standing tradition of the Franciscan Friars. In post # 10 Catholic Dude has actually shown that it has been said by St. Francis.
Catholic Dude:

In a letter to abbot Jonathan:
"…I hear your faith is strong though many around you seem to doubt, stand firm for Christ. Preach the gospel always, and if necessary use words. "(Letter #32, Life and works of St Francis)

I don’t know if he has read it or he just doesn’t believe it. Being a staunch catholic is nice but we must always remind ourselves to do everything in love and charity.

 

[john654]

Gryskull,

Did you miss this?

Catholic Dude http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_1047515”, true);
Senior Member
Join Date: December 4, 2004
Posts: 1,623

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Saint Francis Didn’t Say…
Actually those words just came off the top of my head, I dont think St Francis ever wrote a letter to “Abbot Jonathan” (if such a person ever existed).

I was just trying to show that such issues as “St Francis didnt say” dont really mean much in terms of whether or not Im Catholic or in any way discrediting St Francis.

John

 

[john654]

Gryskull,
Sorry, I forgot to post this.

I don’t know if he has read it or he just doesn’t believe it. Being a staunch catholic is nice but we must always remind ourselves to do everything in love and charity.

In Love and Charity,
John

 

[hgracet]

If you actually stop and think about the words, it makes perfect sense. Its been said in other ways “actions speak louder than words” There is actually a story of St. Francis. He and his order were going to go preach to a town, he led them through, and they walked through the town to the end of its borders. The men, questioned him, saying that they thought they were going to preach, and St. Francis said “we already did”.
Whether or not he actually used the words in that quote, he realized the importance of living your faith and how that is a true testimony to what faith is.

 

[trogiah]

I think I was the one who presented a part of this quote so I thought I would put the whole section in. From the 7th chapter of Matthew

“Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?
4
How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove that splinter from your eye,’ while the wooden beam is in your eye?
5
You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.”

I would read that as saying not only is it possible for a person to remove the beam in their eye but Jesus expects us to do that before we go looking for specks in other eyes.

I also present the following scripture as related to the alleged quote by Saint Francis.

"As you go, make this proclamation: ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

5 Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, drive out demons. Without cost you have received; without cost you are to give."

These are the instructions Jesus gave to his disciples and they seem to clearly indicate that there is a time for words and a time for actions. That seems no more or less than what St. Francis was saying (allegedly)

Your objections to some uses of the (alleged) words of St Francis are valid, but I would like to point out that, though a follower of Jesus must always be ready to stand for the truth, he or she never has to stand in judgement of another. It is sometimes difficult to sort out the difference.

peace

-Jim

 

[john654]

Hello,
I really didn’t expect it to come to this. I reallly didn’t. I was just going to point out the fact the saint francis didn’t say “Prech the gospel always and if necessary use words”. In an attempt to help you in case there was still a liberal 1960’s liberal trying to keep you from speaking the truth. I didn’t know that most of you were ready, willing, and looking fro heated debate.

So, for all of you are non-judgemental judgementalist, read this. It’s out of the Bible. I didn’t say it, so don’t get mad at me:

1 Corinthians 5
9 7 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, 10 not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world. 11 But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. 12 For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? 13 God will judge those outside. “Purge the evil person from your midst.”

Obedience,
John

 

[john654]

Jim,

Pleaase read my privious post.

Your objections to some uses of the (alleged) words of St Francis are valid, but I would like to point out that, though a follower of Jesus must always be ready to stand for the truth, he or she never has to stand in judgement of another. It is sometimes difficult to sort out the difference.

peace

-Jim

We can’t judge someone to hell, but we need to stand in judgment in the Church. That is one of the things that is wrong with the church.
John

 

[john654]

Gryskull,

Did you miss this?

Quote:
Catholic Dude http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_1047515”, true);
Senior Member
Join Date: December 4, 2004
Posts: 1,623

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Saint Francis Didn’t Say…
Actually those words just came off the top of my head, I dont think St Francis ever wrote a letter to “Abbot Jonathan” (if such a person ever existed).

I was just trying to show that such issues as “St Francis didnt say” dont really mean much in terms of whether or not Im Catholic or in any way discrediting St Francis.

John

 

[gryskull]

john654:

Gryskull,

Did you miss this?

John

I sure did, my bad.

But if you read the first paragraph of my post I think you would understand why we, almost all, had to argue with you. If you ask me whether or not he said it, I still say he did because it has been attributed to Saint Francis all these years. I also think that we don’t have anything to argue whether this has anything to do with your catholicism or not. But the fact that you raised the issue that St. Francis didn’t say those words without saying anything about what you were trying to drive at, I and others had to take the other side.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

What St. Francis said about giving good example, and how this was more important tha[n] preaching with words comes from a variety of sources, on[e] of which is:

The Little Flowers of St. Francis: Chapter 50

At the end of this chapter, in the English translation by T. Okey, which appeared in the Everyman Library edition of 1951, Philosophy and Theology, n. 485A, p. 295, St. Francis is quoted to have said:

But as for me, I desire this privilege from the Lord, that never may I have any privilege from man, except to do reverence to all, and to convert the world by obedience to the Holy Rule rather by example than by word.franciscan-archive.org/patriarcha/preach.html