Saint Francis quote

[byzgirl]

I was just on a Protestant web site (Evangelical), hosted by Kirk Cameron (The Way of The Master).

I found on the ‘articles’ page, an article by a fellow preacher, Ray last name?. It’s located at: wayofthemaster.com/articles.shtml

He borrowed information from www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Oct2001/Wiseman.asp
as it is listed, as a source on the bottom of his article.

A little background…the article is entitled something like “Saint Francis, a Sissy?”. Apparently he was bothered by the famous quote that says, “At all times preach the gospel, and if you must, use words”. To him, an Evangelical Christian, this seems works-based and not faith-only based.

This is his claim:

After a little research I came across a quote about the famous saying. It is from someone who had been a Franciscan monk for 28 years–and had earned an M.A. in Franciscan studies. He contacted some of the most eminent Franciscan scholars in the world to try and verify the saying. He said, “It is clearly not in any of Francis’ writings. After a couple weeks of searching, no scholar could find this quote in a story written within 200 years of Francis’ death.” (1.)
So if it wasn’t Saint Francis who said not to use words, who was it? Who is it that would like to see the truth of the Gospel hindered from being preached to every creature? That doesn’t need to be answered.
The time is short. The laborers are few. Please, cast off your fears and equip yourself to preach the Gospel with words. They are necessary.

**I know the quote well enough, and think it beautiful. So what is the truth, once and for all?.. ** And, even if the quote was a little bit ‘embellished’, what kind of response would you have for Ray’s difficulties with this view (of kindness through example). And what were the circumstances in which Saint Francis’ monks were not allowed to preach the gospel message (in words)?

 

[tee_eff_em]

**I know the quote well enough, and think it beautiful. So what is the truth, once and for all?.. ** And, even if the quote was a little bit ‘embellished’, what kind of response would you have for Ray’s difficulties with this view (of kindness through example). And what were the circumstances in which Saint Francis’ monks were not allowed to preach the gospel message (in words)?

Preaching without Words from the Franciscan Archive.

tee

 

[Soutane]

If it’s Catholic,it’s gotta be wrong!!!

 

[DavidFilmer]

A little background…the article is entitled something like “Saint Francis, a Sissy?”

I don’t know if it’s relevant, but the musical *Nunsense *(which I saw off-Broadway in New York) has “Sr. Mary Leo” making a gag about St. Francis. The joke plays off the similarity between the words “Assisi” and “A Sissy” (as part of the act, a small statue is given to somebody in the audience - which happened to be my wife. We still have the statue).

Maybe somebody heard something like this but didn’t get the joke, and thus wondered why St. Francis would be “a sissy.” A person of such intellectual stature would probably be unable to venture beyond St. Francis’ most famous (attributed) quote.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Preaching without Words from the Franciscan Archive.

tee

From your link:
But as for me, I desire this privilege from the Lord, that never may I have any privilege from man, except to do reverence to all, and to convert the world by obedience to the Holy Rule rather by example than by word - St. Francis.
This is what I understand as well. He said the “famous quote” in so many words a number of times. The likes of Cameron of course believe the modern paraphrase of the quote is a deliberate scam.

 

[Mark77]

Arguing over quotes and interpretations is what has helped to create so many unnecessary divisions among those of us who love Jesus.

If we Christians lived Christ’s teachings “rather by example than by word”, as St. Francis instructed, the world surely would be a better place.

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

Mark

 

[byzgirl]

Arguing over quotes and interpretations is what has helped to create so many unnecessary divisions among those of us who love Jesus.

If we Christians lived Christ’s teachings “rather by example than by word”, as St. Francis instructed, the world surely would be a better place.

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

Mark

here! here!

It’s like asking, “Is it more important to tell a sick person about Jesus, OR tend to his wounds and bring him comfort”.

I can just imagine the good Samaritan story with the Evangelical Christian evangelizer coming across the man lying alongside the road, “Have you accepted Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?” Bleeding man, “incoherent babble…help, me” Evangelical walks away…

It’s not even as if we really disagree that much, it seems like too much polemics and not enough charity. It’s not as if Saint Francis and his monks didn’t believe in Christ as their 'personal Lord and Savior, didn’t spread the Gospel message…it’s that they did that AND helped the poor and the sick. Just as Jesus would want them to.

It’s part of the dichotomy that Protestants are so fond of. Either/or, all the time. If we are body and soul, then doesn’t God want us to try and heal and minister to both aspects of our persons?

What good is faith, if it’s ALL WORDS? It’s not as if we even have that much ‘difference’ in salvation beliefs…after all, they feel that works are a product of a verbal faith proclamation…that ‘saved’ christians also do ‘good’ in the world. As Catholics, are beliefs are just more cohesive and unified. I mean, it’s my understanding that we believe in the type of saving faith that incorporates works–a working, loving faith…that is about God’s works that we participate in).

It sort of makes it all confusing when things get so separated. What good is faith, without works? It’s dead, as James said. And works are useless, if they aren’t done in faith.

I think we all agree…so why so much of the nastiness?

BTW, speaking of nastiness…regarding Kirk Cameron’s ministry and evangelization methods…
I was quite annoyed when I watched one of Kirk Cameron’s ministry’s people (a young girl with long blonde hair) do a youtube video which was a seemingly tolerant (but shortly became an ‘attack-style’ interview) with a Catholic priest. This priest happened to be a married convert who was a former Episcopalian priest who as raised as a Methodist.

They took the interview, edited it…and you don’t actually get to see the full interview, just her opening and closing remarks. But, with her, he even gave some very good explanations). Anyhow, they took excerpts from her brief encounter with him (I think there’s another with the actual interview with Cameron and Comfort)… and made it into a youtube video. They put comments overtop of the video (sarcastic ones) and then inserted quotes of Scripture (big surprise there)…which are the usual ‘taken out of context’ type of approach they so often use (without fear of counter-replies, obviously). Those sort of things make me angry and do not help me see Kirk Cameron as a loving Christian…but as nasty. There, on-the-street, in-your-face, style of evangelizing seems, to me, to be so confrontational (and hoping to trip someone up or make them look foolish). I don’t like that at all.

This blonde woman (interviewer) made it a point, at the end of the video, to mention how the priest 'hadn’t liked the interview, and had gotten all red-faced". Well, no wonder!!! They were not there to listen to the Catholic side, but to tear into it (and him).

Not nice at all.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Cameron and his radio partner, I forget his name, are also the ones who played in its entirety John MacArthur’s “Catholic Church = Satan” speech. You’ll see the audio link goes to their radio archive.

 

[byzgirl]

Cameron and his radio partner, I forget his name, are also the ones who played in its entirety John MacArthur’s “Catholic Church = Satan” speech. You’ll see the audio link goes to their radio archive.

I’ll check it out, but I’m sure I’ll be seeing red before it’s done… I really think that Evangelicals over-simplify things, in general, and then like to use ‘the Catholic Church’ as their ‘big bad guy’ target. Their overall theology is definitely not very intellectual or scholarly, is it? It seems that most don’t like to have to think about things or consider other points of view. It began with Martin Luther…he just couldn’t handle the idea of sin and having to deal with any of the messiness it entailed, so he just said, “Faith Alone!” That’s the ticket!

What a big mess.

 

[Genesis315]

The dude cited in the OP is making the quote say something it is not. It does not say words aren’t necessary–in fact it says they are. St. Franics himself traveled around doing a lot of preaching.

It is impossible to talk at all times, but we can live the Gospel at all times, not just when we are talking about it. That is the point.

 

[byzgirl]

Hey, the link is working for me. Is there another way to the site (do you have the url address and the title of the audio sermon?)

I have to listen, despite the fact that it will probably make me more suspicious of the average Evangelica’s attitudes toward Catholics and Catholicism. I always have the sneaking suspicion that practically ALL of them are ‘taught’ this type of garbage, or not far from it… and that too many of them actually fall for it! Sounds convincing…after all, many of their favorite ‘evangelizers’ are spreading it! Mr. Cameron and his pearly white smile, and Mr. Nice guy looks, is really…just below the surface…an anti-Catholic just looking for a Catholic ‘on the street’ to humiliate and mock. I don’t call that outreach, exactly. They can’t even call us fellow christians…which is bad enough. Then, to call our faith, Satanic!!!

What a bunch of loving people (sarcasm). I can’t help it, it seriously ticks me off.

 

[byzgirl]

The dude cited in the OP is making the quote say something it is not. It does not say words aren’t necessary–in fact it says they are. St. Franics himself traveled around doing a lot of preaching.

It is impossible to talk at all times, but we can live the Gospel at all times, not just when we are talking about it. That is the point.

Not surprising for anti-Catholics…they are masters of misinterpretation and personal opinion.

 

[byzgirl]

I think I recall a quote from Saint Francis (similar to the other) which said something like: “It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching.”
There’s another example of ‘it’s no good to preach (which he did), if the good news isn’t accompanied with sacrifice and example’.

 

[byzgirl]

It is impossible to talk at all times, but we can live the Gospel at all times, not just when we are talking about it. That is the point.

By the way, that’s very true. That’s why Catholics have a more full concept of salvation…that works aren’t opposed to our faith, but harmonious…that our lives aren’t just talk, but following Christ (a lifelong journey) in all ways --including being obedient to His Commandments and picking up our cross and carrying it–of persisting, until the last breath, in our salvation in Christ.

Evangelical Protestant theology is inferior, in many, many ways. And the Evangelical-brand anti-Catholicism (Catholic Church = Satan) is the result.

 

[byzgirl]

That makes sense. I didn’t know that. I can’t imagine actually examining, seriously, the life of Saint Francis, as an Evangelical, and walking away with a bad impression.

I think they just like to look at a few quotes (dissect them) and say, “See! Here’s one of their saints…and he doesn’t even know what it means to be saved!”.

That’s pretty much the tactics they employ for most everything.

 

[Fidelis]

It’s like asking, “Is it more important to tell a sick person about Jesus, OR tend to his wounds and bring him comfort”.

**I can just imagine the good Samaritan story with the Evangelical Christian evangelizer coming across the man lying alongside the road, “Have you accepted Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?” Bleeding man, “incoherent babble…help, me” Evangelical walks away… **

…It’s part of the dichotomy that Protestants are so fond of. Either/or, all the time. If we are body and soul, then doesn’t God want us to try and heal and minister to both aspects of our persons?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Hey, the link is working for me. Is there another way to the site (do you have the url address and the title of the audio sermon?)

Looks like Way of the Master changed their name…and I can’t find an archive. If you really want to hear it, PM me. I still have the MP3s on my hard drive and I can email to you.