Saint gregory - five year old in hell

[Elf01]

We attain the use of reason at different rates. It’s not impossible. However there seem to be other problametic things so I have no trouble disregarding it. I would have found it hard to believe regardless

 

[Zaccheus]

if God was as merciful as your making out, why do most people go to hell

Do most people go to hell? What’s your reason for believing this?

…Also, since when has five years been thought to be the age of reason?

 

[NuclearReceptor]

I forget to whom Jesus said this (it was another private revelation) –

Basically, to paraphrase, Jesus said His friends sometimes depict Him too much as an angry tyrant instead of the merciful Savior.

To another saint (Teresa…? can’t remember again), Jesus said something like, Have hell before their eyes but always trust in God’s Mercy.

 

[pnewton]

why do most people go to hell

This is not something that the Catholic Church teaches.

I know where this idea comes from. Jesus taught indirectly, through parables and hyperbole. People get this when they read about him saying “Hate your father and mother,” a camel through the eye of a needle." Note that Jesus, when asked about this question, gave instead a teaching on presumption, but did not answer the question.

Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”

And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

Jesus did not answer this question. We should not try to either.

 

[pnewton]

but there is no evidence to support the diary is real, it was actually condemned by the church at one point before JPII brought it back.

I would put St. John Paul II and St. Faustina as more reliable than Church Militant. They make money from being controversial and appealing to exceptionalism. Such is the nature of internet bloggers and special interest groups in the mis-information age.

 

[FiveLinden]

I don’t think a 5 year old is capable of doing anything to put him in hell.

Theoretically anyone 7 or older could commit a mortal sin. It could put him in hell, but there probably isn’t any concrete evidence that anyone that young is actually there. Our teachers in grade school used to scare the dickens out of me. One said the devil will come and carry you off to hell if you are bad and commit sin. Another said an eighth grader died and appeared to his friend, telling him he went to hell because of some sin or other. I always feared going to bed at night because I was afraid I would wake up, the devil standing there, his horns wagging at me, and his eyes like burning coals in his head.

So, actually that happened. I woke up one night with a man standing by my bed, his eyes burning like anthracite, looking down at me. It was my father, angry at me for something or other, telling me I would be standing in the corner again tomorrow.

Oh, well, such is life.

I understand that those involved meant well, but I experienced similar things myself. I cannot view it now as anything but serious abuse of the position of someone in a position of influence over a child.

 

[JanSobieskiIII]

God has never sent a single soul to hell. Everyone in Hell chose to be there.

 

[Ron_Conte]

I think those visions are true, but figurative, not literal. They are intended to indicate that even someone (an adult) who is as innocent as a child can still go to Hell if they commit actual mortal sin and fail to repent.

 

[neophyte]

but there is no evidence to support the diary is real,

That’s complete nonsense.

it was actually condemned by the church at one point before JPII brought it back.

At one time some were concerned that her diary contained problematic material, but those concerns were answered. It’s an amazing work, I highly recommend it.

 

[drz888]

This thread is a perfect example of the spiritual dangers that may arise by disproportionately elevating private revelation above public revelation.

 

[twf]

Including 5 year olds apparently… who fully understood that they were choosing an eternity of torture beyond comprehension… do not buy it.

 

[JanSobieskiIII]

I don’t either.

 

[Genesis315]

The link to “Church Militant” is an excerpt from a book of St. Alphonsus Liguori, a Doctor of the Church. This is the key part:

“The Lord pardons sins, but He cannot pardon those who are determined to offend Him.”

Habitual sin can harden our hearts to grace. Likewise, God can end our life at any time–St. Alphonsus notes that some commit many mortal sins but live long enough to repent, whereas others commit only a few mortal sins, but are taken from this world unrepentant.

God knows who has or will harden their heart and who will not. It may even be a mercy for the reprobate to be taken earlier, and therefore not be permitted to commit more sins, and so their damnation will be of a lesser degree of torment (this is why St. Irenaeus saw the “curse” of death by God as actually a mercy–it puts an end to the possibility of sin).

Anyway, the lesson is: don’t presumptively commit any mortal sins thinking you’ll have time to repent and be forgiven later. God may not provide you that opportunity.

 

[Genesis315]

Just to add, these kinds of writings and sermons are not intended for everyone. For example, in St. Leonard of Port Maurice’s famous sermon on this topic, he says:

Pious souls, you may leave; this sermon is not for you. Its sole purpose is to contain the pride of libertines who cast the holy fear of God out of their heart and join forces with the devil who, according to the sentiment of Eusebius, damns souls by reassuring them.

 

[NuclearReceptor]

Definitely not helpful for those of us who are scrupulous/anxiety-prone…

 

[angel12]

but there is no evidence to support the diary is real, it was actually condemned by the church at one point before JPII brought it back.

It was an inaccurate transcription of the diary that was banned. St. John Paul II knew this, and had the (real) diary researched by a theologian. This theologian was so impressed that he became a follower of St.Faustina’s message.

 

[2towers]

The article is just an excerpt from St. Alphonsus Liguori’s writings. St. Alphonsus wrote a whole sermon on this for the first Sunday of Lent, so I don’t think it’s heretical if a Doctor of the Church taught it.

I could be wrong, but I think what St. Alphonsus and others were saying is that there are those whose time comes up, some early some late, and that for this reason, some are caught in a state of mortal sin. Confirmation is considered the age of reason, so I think that it is unlikely that a five year old would ever go to hell. I think there is a story by Saint Bosco that talks about a teenager that went to hell, that God took because he foresaw that this teen would only get worse as time went along. It was said that God had been very good to this teen, but he had foreseen that things were only going to get worse. God, in his mercy went ahead and took the teen who, had he been left alone, would have ended up in a much worse level of hell eventually. Of course, once again, this is private revelation.

But here is a takeaway, one of the most important requests we can make of God is to receive the grace never to turn our backs on God permanently, that if we fall, we come back. Give us the grace to fall in love with God more and more each day.

“Lord, tell me what to do, for I am ignorant of thy ways, and blinded by my own sin. Teach and guide me. Left to my own devices, I will mess things up. Lord I want to spend eternity, glorifying you. Never let me leave thy table, and if I do, give me the graces to always always, come back.”

 

[TheLittleLady]

The Church teaches that children, upon the age of reason, can commit mortal sin. The age of reason is around age 7, however, younger children have reached reason and sometimes it takes longer.

That being simple doctrinal fact, the private revelations you are reading are just that, private revelations. They are not facts and are best left alone.

 

[vsedriver]

.” You must, then, tremble at the thought of committing a single mortal sin, particularly if you have already been guilty of mortal sins.

past sins don’t exist if you are truly contrite and go to confession. Although you can tremble at the thought of committing a single mortal sin, we are given clear instructions on what is and what isn’t a mortal sin. No one needs to think they can commit a mortal sin unknowingly.

And we can rejoice in knowing that Jesus Christ died for our sins and that we can be saved. A lot less pessimistic view don’t you think?

Focus more on doing good and worry less about doing bad.

 

[2towers]

St. Alphonsus’s main point in the passage as a whole is not to be presumptuous and sin with reckless abandon believing that one day, the sinner will simply have time to repent at the last minute and all will be well.

I have read his treatise on preparation for death two or three times. It is SO easy to take this stuff out of context. This is why, if we delve into this level of reading, it is helpful to have a Priest who we can bounce this stuff off of. Lacking that, it is better to bring it up here and sift through the different “takes” with the hope a priestly CAF member will chime in then to suffer the misunderstandings alone.