Saint or "Goody-Two-Shoes?"

[PumpkinCookie]

What is the difference between a saint and a neurotic, humorless, naive, superstitious, “goody-two-shoes?”

For those unfamiliar with the expression “goody-two-shoes” it refers to someone who is obnoxious in their overly rigid adherence to what they perceive as moral good. Related terms are “goody-goody” “teacher’s pet” “suck-up” “sap” “prissy” “sanctimonious” etc.

For my entire life I have avoided socializing at church because I dislike many, if not most of the people there. I have NO Catholic friends. To be more accurate, some of them were “raised” Catholic but fell away during adolescence.

I find many of the people at church to be tolerable but either boring, humorless, superstitious, overly naive, etc. And, I don’t mean “naive” in the sense of innocent or faithful, but naive in the sense of “I prayed so that I wouldn’t get a parking ticket and wouldn’t ya know…I didn’t get one. God is so good!” I struggle to hide my laughter when some (well meaning I’m sure) old lady tells me her prayers to St. Jehosephat II cured her cat’s stomach ache.

I fully realize that the Church seems divided into “Liberal” and “Traditional” Catholics, but I try to avoid them both. The former group I find often likes lame music (and “new-agey” overly feminized liturgy), lives in the past, specifically the 1960-70s, and is incredibly naive. The latter is humorless, superstitious, stiff, and lives in the past (circa 13th century).

I have never** felt “at home” in the Church, even though I am a cradle Catholic. I am married to another cradle Catholic. We try our best to follow the Church’s teachings, no birth control, regular confession, mass every week or more. I want to know, love and serve God, and I believe the Church is God’s only true church, but wow…are these really what “holy” or “saintly” people are supposed to be like?

I fully realize that I am probably just a demon-infested evil sinner, and probably dislike being around the people at church because my evil sinful soul is repulsed by their holiness. But, my nagging question remains:

Are those people actually on the path to sainthood? Something in me doesn’t want to accept that. Jesus doesn’t seem like a neurotic “goody-goody” so why is his church filled with people like that? I hesitate to even say this, but much of the “holiness” of many saints I’ve read about seems to me like it can be easily explained rather as “neurosis” or “OCD” or “superstition” or “prissiness.”

I would appreciate any advice or insight!

Thank you!

 

[InJesusItrust]

This is my opinion: saints look forward to doing the will of God and place all their eggs in the hereafter basket. To someone who has not accepted that the hereafter is most important saints look amazing or stupid. This I think is the differentiator.

Not sure about praying over cats or parking meters but people who have experienced the spiritual may err on the side of superstition. (I have done so today.) In the end Jesus said we must not have hard hearts and be like children. I interpret that as being trusting in God that all things are possible.

 

[CMSUVulcan]

Saint =/= “goody-two shoes”

Saints who were hardly

“goody-two-shoes” . . . someone who is obnoxious in their overly rigid adherence to what they perceive as moral good. Related terms are “goody-goody” “teacher’s pet” “suck-up” “sap” “prissy” “sanctimonious” etc.

Blessed John Paul II. Oh yes he was rigid what was the moral good, but suck up he was not. Just ask the Nazis and Communists about him

Fr. Emil Kapaun, servant of God. Rigid in what was the moral good, but he was hardly a teacher’s pet, suck-up, sap, prissy. Read about what he did in Korea

St. Maximillian Kolbe, rigid in what is the moral good

Perpetua and Felicity, they were rigid in their adherance to the moral good, but were described by some of their contemporaries and more recent historians as unruly

St. Joan of Arc, ask the limeys if they think she was a goody two shoes

St. Francis, far from the tree hugging hippy you would think he was from watching stuff such as Brother Sun, Sister Moon he was a hardcore BA (and I don’t mean Bachelor of Arts)

St. Damian of Molokai, nobody wanted to be with those lepers, he did. Tough all the way.

St. Ignatius of Loyala and St. Francis Xavier

St. Isaac Jogues and companions

St. Jerome had something of a temper in him and now I present to you the most BA saints I can think of.

St. Denis, so BA that they lob his head off and he preaches the gospel for 10 miles after his decapitation

St. Lawrence who cooly says, I’m done on this side, turn me over.

St. Polycarp.

Yeah, actually very few saints have been mamby pamby goody two shoes. Most, if not all have in some way upset the social order. We could also mention St. Catherine of Siena. Anyways, I don’t think saint means what you think it does.

As for you, your faith should not be dependent on the actions of others. I myself see nothing wrong with asking the intercession of the saints, but that is also only half the equation. The saints are there to inspire to you to imitate them as they imitated Christ here on earth so that you may one day enter the very real relationship with Christ that they have with Him in Heaven. I would want to know what books you are reading that would make you conclude that the saints are in some way neurotic, superstitious, or prissy. I can think of very few who qualify as any of those.

 

[St_Francis]

It’s really a shame that your parish is so full of this type of person. My parish is totally different. Even our priest has a sense of humor!

I will say that without good spiritual direction, at least I can fall into all sorts of little traps on the side of my path.

Maybe you and your husband could check out some different parishes to see if the people are any different? I know that the different parishes I have been to tend to have different atmospheres.

 

[Steveabrous]

What is the difference between a saint and a neurotic, humorless, naive, superstitious, “goody-two-shoes?”

For those unfamiliar with the expression “goody-two-shoes” it refers to someone who is obnoxious in their overly rigid adherence to what they perceive as moral good. Related terms are “goody-goody” “teacher’s pet” “suck-up” “sap” “prissy” “sanctimonious” etc.

For my entire life I have avoided socializing at church because I dislike many, if not most of the people there. I have NO Catholic friends. To be more accurate, some of them were “raised” Catholic but fell away during adolescence.

I find many of the people at church to be tolerable but either boring, humorless, superstitious, overly naive, etc. And, I don’t mean “naive” in the sense of innocent or faithful, but naive in the sense of “I prayed so that I wouldn’t get a parking ticket and wouldn’t ya know…I didn’t get one. God is so good!” I struggle to hide my laughter when some (well meaning I’m sure) old lady tells me her prayers to St. Jehosephat II cured her cat’s stomach ache.

I fully realize that the Church seems divided into “Liberal” and “Traditional” Catholics, but I try to avoid them both. The former group I find often likes lame music (and “new-agey” overly feminized liturgy), lives in the past, specifically the 1960-70s, and is incredibly naive. The latter is humorless, superstitious, stiff, and lives in the past (circa 13th century).

I have never** felt “at home” in the Church, even though I am a cradle Catholic. I am married to another cradle Catholic. We try our best to follow the Church’s teachings, no birth control, regular confession, mass every week or more. I want to know, love and serve God, and I believe the Church is God’s only true church, but wow…are these really what “holy” or “saintly” people are supposed to be like?

I fully realize that I am probably just a demon-infested evil sinner, and probably dislike being around the people at church because my evil sinful soul is repulsed by their holiness. But, my nagging question remains:

Are those people actually on the path to sainthood? Something in me doesn’t want to accept that. Jesus doesn’t seem like a neurotic “goody-goody” so why is his church filled with people like that? I hesitate to even say this, but much of the “holiness” of many saints I’ve read about seems to me like it can be easily explained rather as “neurosis” or “OCD” or “superstition” or “prissiness.”

I would appreciate any advice or insight!

Thank you!

I know what you mean. I’ve read most of St. Faustina’s diary, and though I believe her visions to be authentic her personality is very much like what you described. She even seemed to be holier then thou towards her sisters (convent sisters).

But then there are St. Augustine, and Padre Pio who seem more human like.

Realize that no one personality type over another goes to heaven. Jesus said “if you love me and if you love me you obey my commands.”

The “goody-goodies” are just more visible so their the ones who get petitioned for sainthood.

Also it is o.k. to just not really like a fellow christian due to personality clashes. I have heard from several theologians that Peter and Paul did not really like each other and clashed frequently.

On a more personal level- In my youth those “Holy” people put me off too and I didn’t like being around them. Now that I’m older I much prefer their company to the rift-raft I used to hang with. And I might possibly be one of them. I fall into neither liberal or Traditional Catholicism ( since I am protestant convert I see good and bad in both).

 

[JimR-OCDS]

What is the difference between a saint and a neurotic, humorless, naive, superstitious, “goody-two-shoes?”

Perhaps the biggest difference is your understanding of just what a saint is?

Saints are ordinary people who followed Jesus Christ and had a profound love for God and humanity.

They were humble, so hardly anyone really noticed them until they were gone.

Don’t confuse Mother Teresa’s popularity, which only came in the last years of her life.

Before that, she was merely focused on doing God’s work, without seeking attention.

As far as people who are so-called, “do-good’ers,” don’t worry about who they are, focus on what you do.\

As Gandhi said, “you must become the change you want to see in the world.”

Same is true within the Church except with a different twist. “You must the change, God wants to see in the Church.”

Humbly following the will of God should always be the focus of our intentions.

Jim

 

[Kal2012]

It’s really a shame that your parish is so full of this type of person. My parish is totally different. Even our priest has a sense of humor!

I will say that without good spiritual direction, at least I can fall into all sorts of little traps on the side of my path.

Maybe you and your husband could check out some different parishes to see if the people are any different? I know that the different parishes I have been to tend to have different atmospheres.

Definitely agree!

At my parish, there’s always a different feel at different mass times too. The 11:30 crowd doesn’t think twice about being 10-15 minutes late for mass. The 10 am crowd is much more punctual. I don’t know about the other two masses because I don’t go on Saturdays or to the early morning service. It is what it is.

Also, sometimes, it’s just hard to socialize at church. I’ve found most people socialize at events outside of mass time.

 

[tabycat]

Just think of the Jesus’s inner circle was made up of: four fisherman (one with a temper problem), a tax collecter (for the Romans!), a ‘freedom fighter’ (to them the only person worse then a Roman was a Jew being a tax collecter for the Romans), and a thief. No ‘goody-goody’ two shoes in that bunch!

 

[LilyM]

Just think of the Jesus’s inner circle was made up of: four fisherman (one with a temper problem), a tax collecter (for the Romans!), a ‘freedom fighter’ (to them the only person worse then a Roman was a Jew being a tax collecter for the Romans), and a thief. No ‘goody-goody’ two shoes in that bunch!

Don’t forget John - the ever-faithful never-wrong dearly-beloved one who didn’t deny nor betray nor run away to save his own skin like the rest. I bet the other ones thought of him as a naive holier-than-thou goody-two-shoes

 

[St_Francis]

Definitely agree!

At my parish, there’s always a different feel at different mass times too. The 11:30 crowd doesn’t think twice about being 10-15 minutes late for mass. The 10 am crowd is much more punctual. I don’t know about the other two masses because I don’t go on Saturdays or to the early morning service. It is what it is.

Also, sometimes, it’s just hard to socialize at church. I’ve found most people socialize at events outside of mass time.

Yes, it is true that people don’t socialize so much at Mass time–they are there to visit God and not each other, so it is at parish events that I have gotten to know others in our parish. Because we love really far away, what we did was to help clean up after events The organizers were always very happy to see us

 

[Auntie_A]

I understand your question. Not everyone is authentic at first in imitating Jesus. Some people have been so indoctrinated into doing “good” that they forget what the purpose of GOOD really is. That type of good would be better described as “nice”. Many people are frightened when they encounter a not nice truth. Humans are a strange group, we are.

I have questioned myself when I have done what I thought was a good deed: “Did I just empower an evil deed?” “Would I loan my phone to some Nazi?” “Did I just give my place in line to a criminal?” If I just walk around doing the secular “random acts of kindness” without being grounded in the Spirit, I am not necessarily acting in goodness.

I like the list of Saints in the above post. I also like listing the moments Jesus said or did things that weren’t necessarily nice, like his anger in the temple with the merchants and moneychangers. Goodness is not achieved only by gentleness; sometimes it requires some muscle. Not all silence is golden, sometimes it’s just wimpiness.

I have many non-Catholic friends. While I agree that their rough edges can be quite refreshing at times, I also find neurosis and OCD scrupulosity there as well. However, their object is not necessarily reaching God, it is usually how to reach Hawaii, the sale at the mall, find the perfect weed or pizza, or obtain a perfect “carbon footprint”.

It is for us to discern goodness in everything before us, but not being God, I can only pray, read, and act in the faith that I am heading in the right direction.

I recommend working on deepening your prayer life ALONG WITH deepening your humility. Beware of your judgment of those little old ladies: some of them have very deep faith and very healthy old cats…

 

[Ad_Orientem]

Truly holy people are very human, approachable, and full of joy and life. They are also rare, because the road there is not easy.

To complicate matters, many sermons and religious education programs are full of fluff, and lack the full scope of Christian instruction, which encourages mediocrity.

“It is no great thing to associate with the good and gentle, for such association is naturally pleasing. Everyone enjoys a peaceful life and prefers persons of congenial habits. But to be able to live at peace with harsh and perverse men, or with the undisciplined and those who irritate us, is a great grace, a praiseworthy and manly thing.”
– Thomas a Kempis (Imitation of Christ, Book II, Ch. 3)

 

[Bonnie]

People aren’t apt to open up to strangers & tell them all about their spiritual lives. I sure don’t. When I participated in a women’s Bible study I found out some marvelous things about the other ladies. They were very spiritual, loving people - I just hadn’t known them well enough before to find that out.

If I found out that someone thought I was a hypocritical goody-two-shoes, I probably wouldn’t bother talking to that person. I’d let him think whatever he wanted to think.

 

[katy]

Don’t forget John - the ever-faithful never-wrong dearly-beloved one who didn’t deny nor betray nor run away to save his own skin like the rest. I bet the other ones thought of him as a naive holier-than-thou goody-two-shoes

I second that. Sometimes folks put the “goody two-shoes” label on others who illuminate the contrast between good and evil behavior. The good behavior makes them look bad.

 

[Forkfoot]

The difference between the saint and the goody two shoes is humility. So they really couldn’t be more different.

 

[LilyM]

The difference between the saint and the goody two shoes is humility. So they really couldn’t be more different.

Yes, but people do tend to perceive those who disagree with or are critical of them in any way as somehow lacking in humility. Which is definitely not always the case - one can be firm in one’s convictions and critical of others but still humble.

Take John the Baptist - he is very humble in clarifying that his mission is merely to prepare the way for Jesus and super-humble in His presence, but still gives wrongdoers a good tonguelashing.

 

[Forkfoot]

In practice I don’t think anyone’s humility or lack thereof is any of my business, including my own.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Auntie A especially good point about finding OCD neurotic behavior in many places. You are right.

One thing I notice is that I rarely encounter magnanimity in the Church. People are so concerned about what clothes to wear, what the religious education coordinator said to the parish secretary, who’s son “so and so” was seen with after hours, etc. It seems to me that the Church is so full of people who are easily offended, and also are the type of people to “demand an apology” for hurt feelings, rudeness, etc.

Sometimes I like to think about what it would be like to meet a famous saint. For instance, since he was quoted, Thomas a Kempis (though not a saint). Brace yourselves for this next part! Can you imagine if you were to meet Thomas a Kempis and you told a joke. Not a sinful, sexual, or dirty joke, but just a pun or lightly funny joke. Can you imagine him laughing? Is that the kind of person you want to be around?

Extend this to many other saints. Would you want to be friends with St. Augustine? Does he seem like a “down-to-earth” guy to be around? I get the distinct feeling that if I were to meet most saints, I would be “on eggshells” or worried that I would offend them or something. In my experience, the greatest people I have met have inspired precisely the opposite feeling in me. Why is that?

Also, to clarify, a “goody-goody” is not someone of moral courage or nobility, but rather a legalistic, over-scrupulous moral slave. However, sometimes I see this characteristic of “goody-goodiness” in the lives of many saints like for instance, a very famous saint’s long, arduous description of the heinous sin of stealing a pear when he was a young boy. Stories like that make me think…“who cares?” It doesn’t seem like moral heroism to feel deep compunction for stealing a pear 40 years ago. None but the most petty, malicious person would demand an apology and remorse for a stolen pear from 40 years ago, so what kind of person thinks God is like that?

 

[Bonnie]

None but the most petty, malicious person would demand an apology and remorse for a stolen pear from 40 years ago, so what kind of person thinks God is like that?

Karl Keating has a quote somewhere by a saint, something along the lines of, how can I be happy and light-hearted knowing what Christ did for me?

And didn’t St. Teresa of Avila say, “From sour-faced saints and silly devotions, Lord preserve us!”

 

[Sunbreak]

I am probably in the same position. I don’t like the churches with the hippy kumbaya music and hand-holidng stuff, but I don’t relate much to the people in the parish who are obsessed with saying some kind of rosary, novena or chaplet on the hour either. I relate much better to my friends who are not Catholic and are not really practicing any religion. They seem to keep it real and amazingly are much less gossipy than the church people.