F
Forkfoot
Guest
Yes. They’re probably a little less rare than it seems, cuz I strongly suspect the majority of them don’t stand out much.
- Status
T
TheHolyTrinity
Guest
I contemplate that your perception of people within your church is unjust based an unconscious social categorizing and fundamental believe you hold on a certain stereotypical behaviors of others. You are not alone - many people do this and don’t realize they are doing it!
Reflect how often you make these kinds of judgments every day. Say with a new colleague, you immediately begin to develop an initial impression of this person. Even though you know very little about this person you start to make a mental grouping of this person which is also known as social categorizing. Most part of this social categorizing is done automatically and unconsciously. Unless you are aware of this unconscious social categorizing, it can lead to errors and stereotyping of that particular individual.
We all have a collection of beliefs and assumptions on how certain traits are linked to other characteristics and behaviors. Once we know something about this characteristic, we assume that the person will also show other traits that are commonly linked to that main characteristic.
Both social categorizations, and certain trait, behaviors and characteristics may help us make judgments quickly; they can certainly contribute to typical stereotyping errors.
A
Aramis
Guest
St. Nicholas of Myra, then Bishop Nicholas, was ejected from the Council of Nicea for punching Bishop Arius in the nose. He was later readmitted to the council; it seems Arius was declared a heretic…
Yes, Santa 'Claus was a brawler!
Yes, Santa 'Claus was a brawler!
A
Auntie_A
Guest
Pumpkin Cookie, you have got to look deeper at things, concepts, people. The image of someone is very different from their 3-D actual self. That takes time to discover. Most saints would not bore you; you just think you would be bored because of an image you have of a saint. Shake it up for yourself. Look again.
P
PumpkinCookie
Guest
What precisely does it mean to “look deeper” at people? Do you mean that I need to acquire more data about them in order to make a more piercing judgment?
Is it possible that a single act by someone could reveal quite a bit about them?
What if you saw a man kicking a puppy to death in the street? Is it reasonable to suppose that he is mostly a kind, gentle man who just happened to start kicking a puppy in a moment of weakness?
What if someone is bragging to a total stranger? Would you assume that person is humble but in a moment of weakness started bragging?
Unfortunately, since I am not aware of having met a saint, “image” is all I have to work with. All we have to “go on” are their own writings and the hagiographies written by their fan clubs, many times long after the fact.
What does it mean to look “deeper” at things? Are you talking X-rays? Microscopes? Telescopes? PET Scans? Ha. Not so funny…but seriously, what does that mean?
What does it mean to look “deeper” at concepts? Does it mean to spend more time thinking about them? Should I try to discover the implications and the implications of implications of the concept? Should I try to form analogies to get a clearer understanding? What do you mean?
Is it possible that a single act by someone could reveal quite a bit about them?
What if you saw a man kicking a puppy to death in the street? Is it reasonable to suppose that he is mostly a kind, gentle man who just happened to start kicking a puppy in a moment of weakness?
What if someone is bragging to a total stranger? Would you assume that person is humble but in a moment of weakness started bragging?
Unfortunately, since I am not aware of having met a saint, “image” is all I have to work with. All we have to “go on” are their own writings and the hagiographies written by their fan clubs, many times long after the fact.
What does it mean to look “deeper” at things? Are you talking X-rays? Microscopes? Telescopes? PET Scans? Ha. Not so funny…but seriously, what does that mean?
What does it mean to look “deeper” at concepts? Does it mean to spend more time thinking about them? Should I try to discover the implications and the implications of implications of the concept? Should I try to form analogies to get a clearer understanding? What do you mean?
D
drforjc
Guest
If you read the lives of the saints, you find that they came in all temperaments and personality types. Some were the warm fuzzy type, others rather crotchety, and everything in between.
What they had in common was a desire to carry out the will of God in all things and to love God and neighbor with all their heart.
What they had in common was a desire to carry out the will of God in all things and to love God and neighbor with all their heart.
B
Bonnie
Guest
Yes. It is rare that we can make an honest judgement of people at our first meeting. Or at later meetings if we don’t talk with them. (With, as opposed to “to.”) Although I would not want to make a “piercing judgement” of anyone. At most, just that that person & I are not compatible.
For example, I get the feeling from your posts that you and I would not be compatible.
C
CatholicRaven
Guest
**“If you look for the bad in people, expecting to find it, you surely will.” ** The opposite is also true. 
It may help to focus more on “common ground,” and less on all the differences which are so easy to see. Some differences, of course, are not negotiable, but the type of music they like puts them in the “liberal” group? Really? I hope that was just an exaggeration.
I don’t consider myself either Liberal or Traditional, but I have some friends that could possibly be described as one or the other–and yet, none of them fit very well into your “Liberal” or “Traditional” categories as you describe them.
Remember that even the canonized saints were not necessarily holy throughout their entire lives. They made mistakes; they sinned. Some stories focus only on what they did right, and omit the things with which they struggled. Others (and here’s where the “digging” may come in) are more balanced, and remind us that the saints were real, normal people with faults and struggles and sins and doubts just like we have–but they persevered, and give us hope that we, too, can persevere. They are heroes, partly because of what they gained, but also because of what they overcame to get it.
So why is the Church filled with people who aren’t like Christ? Because we are trying to become like Him–and for some, it’s a long, tough road. The Church is filled with sinners, because these are the people who need Him the most. With God’s help, they can become saints. (Remember that a “saint” is simply anyone who is in Heaven, not only those who have been canonized.) But for most of us, it is a *life-long process. * And it takes practice. That’s why we call it “practicing” our faith.
**Remember, also, that the way you choose to think of others will influence how you feel about them and how you treat them. ** If, in your mind, you categorize others into neat little boxes like “Liberal” or “Traditional,” and see yourself as neither, or “outside the box,” you may be effectively cutting yourself off from other people and making it hard for yourself to find friends. Even those who may be more similar to you than to those in the “box,” may get categorized because of some small difference from you. Tempting, yes–in fact, most of us (including me) struggle with some form of this–but spiritually dangerous. And lonely, too.
I’m not saying that is what you are doing; only that your post implies that you might be doing this without realizing it.
It may help to focus more on “common ground,” and less on all the differences which are so easy to see. Some differences, of course, are not negotiable, but the type of music they like puts them in the “liberal” group? Really? I hope that was just an exaggeration.
I don’t consider myself either Liberal or Traditional, but I have some friends that could possibly be described as one or the other–and yet, none of them fit very well into your “Liberal” or “Traditional” categories as you describe them.
I don’t think he thought God was petty and malicious, but that when you truly love and respect someone, you do not want to offend them in any way. The way that you hurt or offend someone you care about can seem minor to someone outside the relationship, but for the person who did it, the offense can seem larger than life–especially if there was more involved within than just what we can observe from the outside. I know, as a parent, that I tend to worry about mistakes I’ve made with my kids long after my kids have forgotten all about it. It’s not that I think my child will never forgive me, but that I don’t ever want to hurt them again that way–and also that I know some of those mistakes may have affected or changed our relationship, and I can’t get that time back. I think the closer we are to God, the more clearly we can see how even “minor” sins affect our relationship with Him. But if you can’t relate to his story, that’s fine. Just find some saints with whom you can relate better.
Remember that even the canonized saints were not necessarily holy throughout their entire lives. They made mistakes; they sinned. Some stories focus only on what they did right, and omit the things with which they struggled. Others (and here’s where the “digging” may come in) are more balanced, and remind us that the saints were real, normal people with faults and struggles and sins and doubts just like we have–but they persevered, and give us hope that we, too, can persevere. They are heroes, partly because of what they gained, but also because of what they overcame to get it.
So why is the Church filled with people who aren’t like Christ? Because we are trying to become like Him–and for some, it’s a long, tough road. The Church is filled with sinners, because these are the people who need Him the most. With God’s help, they can become saints. (Remember that a “saint” is simply anyone who is in Heaven, not only those who have been canonized.) But for most of us, it is a *life-long process. * And it takes practice. That’s why we call it “practicing” our faith.
**Remember, also, that the way you choose to think of others will influence how you feel about them and how you treat them. ** If, in your mind, you categorize others into neat little boxes like “Liberal” or “Traditional,” and see yourself as neither, or “outside the box,” you may be effectively cutting yourself off from other people and making it hard for yourself to find friends. Even those who may be more similar to you than to those in the “box,” may get categorized because of some small difference from you. Tempting, yes–in fact, most of us (including me) struggle with some form of this–but spiritually dangerous. And lonely, too.
I’m not saying that is what you are doing; only that your post implies that you might be doing this without realizing it.
P
perro_sarnoso
Guest
You forgot “do-gooders”.
A lot of the ones you mention come from a perspective of jealousy and envy. Seeing the good and holy that one seems to be unable to attain or unwilling to attain for whatever reason.
Some of the terms are used by demons-yes-demons to accuse and ridicule a priest performing and exorcism or a layperson’s prayer of deliverance.
They are detractors from the life of prayer and life of the spirit. Detractors to a devout and reverent life. A life that often times the beholder is unable to have because they percieve it as weakness.
Devout; reverent and prayerful Catholics are not weak. It would be a huge error to confuse my kindness, devotion, reverence and prayerfulness with weakness…you’d end up with a bloody nose-and then, I would pray for you.
St. Peter would’ve cut off your ear and then watch remorsefully as the Lord to healed you. I really love that guy.
A
Auntie_A
Guest
“Look deeper” means look again, and again, and again…Don’t go crazy with it but allow a deeper story than just your own experience or observation. Labels help us when we are at a distance. A quick judgment can save us from burnout, exhaustion, or overwhelm, but person-to-person we all deserve a second or a third look. We do not have to run around making close personal contact with everyone, especially those who rub us the wrong way, but charity towards others in our outlook is closer to the truth than assuming a sweeping generality. “There but for the grace of God go I,” if you ever heard that before, is said when we encounter someone in a mess, and it reflects a kind of spiritual fairness.
Your puppy kicker and the braggart are just windows in time: The puppykicker could be someone who is abusive to animals, to any young thing, to anything in his way; he could be someone who has been kicked and bullied all of his life; he could be blind, clumsy, irrational; he could be a one-time offender or a recidivist. We notice the act, the behavior, but at first glance we see the puppy has been kicked, or we see that the other person brags. (The puppy needs to get out of danger and to a vet possibly. The braggart’s listener might need a social rescue.) But as you look again you might see more about the perpetrator besides their abuses and annoyances; as you look again you might learn what led them down their path. You might see your own path more clearly.
I am not recommending you do this with every puppykicker or braggart but it is usually wiser to look at a group and presume that there are more layers than you can see or judge at an instant.
I could be a stripper who dresses drably to avoid invasion of privacy. I could brag because I am powerless in my personal life, I could be impulsive and rude by habit but try hard to keep my mouth shut. I could appear happy but have suffered from serial tragedies and losses, I could be devout looking and OCD, I could be devout looking and totally wasted and empty, I could be devout looking and haughty and arrogant, I could be devout looking and actually be devout.
CatholicRaven explained most of this already. Read her post again, if you will.
P
PumpkinCookie
Guest
OK thank you all for the insight. I have thought of a different way to ask this question.
It seems like a saint would be someone who would attract sinners to Jesus and his church.
“Do-gooders” “Goody-Two-Shoes,” etc are repulsive to sinners.
Therefore, I conclude that being a “goody-goody” is not the same as being a saint.
But what quality or qualities precisely separate the one from the other?
Is it a matter of addition or subtraction or both? I mean, can you take a “goody-goody” and add or subtract some virtue(s) or vice(s) and get a saint?
I am beginning to suspect that nobility and magnanimity are what separate a “goody-two-shoes” from a saint.
A “goody-goody” is driven** by fear, OCD, prejudice, habit, or some other kind of psychological or emotional damage toward virtuous action.
A saint however chooses** virtuous action out of love for God and neighbor.
What d’ya think?
P.S. please don’t read into the “liberal” vs “traditional” thing too much. I don’t mean to offend anyone. In my limited experience of the church’s culture in the U.S. these sad divisions seem to be useful categories for understanding what is happening.
It seems like a saint would be someone who would attract sinners to Jesus and his church.
“Do-gooders” “Goody-Two-Shoes,” etc are repulsive to sinners.
Therefore, I conclude that being a “goody-goody” is not the same as being a saint.
But what quality or qualities precisely separate the one from the other?
Is it a matter of addition or subtraction or both? I mean, can you take a “goody-goody” and add or subtract some virtue(s) or vice(s) and get a saint?
I am beginning to suspect that nobility and magnanimity are what separate a “goody-two-shoes” from a saint.
A “goody-goody” is driven** by fear, OCD, prejudice, habit, or some other kind of psychological or emotional damage toward virtuous action.
A saint however chooses** virtuous action out of love for God and neighbor.
What d’ya think?
P.S. please don’t read into the “liberal” vs “traditional” thing too much. I don’t mean to offend anyone. In my limited experience of the church’s culture in the U.S. these sad divisions seem to be useful categories for understanding what is happening.
A
Auntie_A
Guest
(continued) Fifteen years ago I had a strange and accurately prophetic dream which revealed that a close friend would die. St. Catherine of Sienna, whom I know nothing about, appeared in this dream and took me on a journey through churches and Italian-looking countryside. She showed me statues and murals and frescoes of saints and told me that saints’ lives were much more real, human, and mundane that is represented in art and literature. The source of that dream is not as important as the messages, and that particular message has helped me relax on myself and others.
I have met amazing people in my life at church and elsewhere; I have met boring or obnoxious people at church or elsewhere. Life can be amazing and dramatic or boring and obnoxious. Life is a struggle for us all. Being a Christian helps me fathom it all more clearly; it also helps nag at my conscience when I am being lazy.We are all called to be saints; some of the known saints might help us along on that journey; some of the “goody goodies” might help, too.
I have met amazing people in my life at church and elsewhere; I have met boring or obnoxious people at church or elsewhere. Life can be amazing and dramatic or boring and obnoxious. Life is a struggle for us all. Being a Christian helps me fathom it all more clearly; it also helps nag at my conscience when I am being lazy.We are all called to be saints; some of the known saints might help us along on that journey; some of the “goody goodies” might help, too.
A
Auntie_A
Guest
A saint is in the Spirit of goodness and does a good deed with a strong purpose of expressing Christ’s love. If they are going through a dark night of the soul, yet still wish to express God’s love (as Mother Teresa did) they are still saints. They are not involved in immediate reward (and sometimes not even involved in heavenly reward even though there is a certain amount of trust there). Humility is the guide.
A “goody-goody” does good deeds without a stronger purpose than just “doing good”. The words and deeds might sound good but are not anchored in expressing God’s love. They become anchored in the doer’s own ego and needs; their deeds become more hollow and empty. Over time, a goody goody can turn very bitter, especially if there is no immediate gratification. A successful goody goody becomes a bigger celebrity and works hard to maintain that celebrity status. Humility is not present.
F
Forkfoot
Guest
L
LilyM
Guest
But different character traits attract different people. And different traits attract the same person at different times. What attracted me as a child, or five years ago, was different to what attracts me now.
And, correspondingly, different traits repel people at different times. Not to say there are some things that will not pretty much be universally repulsive.
So the Saints come in very different ‘flavours’ in order for there to be someone for everyone. And most saints will have traits that at least some will consider repulsive.
Take St Francis of Assisi. A vey well-beloved Saint but some would find his habits of extreme penance - eg rolling around in thornbushes when tempted by lust - offputting, as physical mortification is not attractive to them.
At least some will be (indeed were at the time) challenged and confronted by this, and convicted that they should live a bit less comfortably. They may not want to give up those comforts though, and rather than maturely considering whether to follow his example will (and did) simply dismiss him as ‘holier-than-thou’ or a ‘goody-goody’.
M
mangy_dog
Guest
Ok no, seriously,
Saints love and serve the Lord and are a witness onto others. The more you conform your will to His will the less gray area in your life and the more discernment of what is good and bad.
To a holy person or to a person whose will is in concordance with the Lord’s-sugarcoating or compromising are non options. Compassion and charity are two great ingredients in a holy person’s life when dealing with people who have a habitual life of sin and life of pleasure seeking.
But a holy person with a life of prayer and a life of the spirit-nurtured by the Sacraments of Confession and Communion, is not only a convert of the intellect-but also a convert of the will.
It takes a certain toughness to resist and combat sin in our lives. It’s not for the wishy-washy (there’s another one).
Sinners that are repulsed by goody two-shoes will also be critical if the person that is supposed to be a good catholic or holy person-is not behaving so good or holy. That will turn them away possibly at a most critical time of their lives.
Someone in need is always watching-so, strive to be good in the eyes of the Lord and always walk in his ways.
Remember it take bold determination and courage to be holy and saintly and just plain tough against a life of sin.
Saints love and serve the Lord and are a witness onto others. The more you conform your will to His will the less gray area in your life and the more discernment of what is good and bad.
To a holy person or to a person whose will is in concordance with the Lord’s-sugarcoating or compromising are non options. Compassion and charity are two great ingredients in a holy person’s life when dealing with people who have a habitual life of sin and life of pleasure seeking.
But a holy person with a life of prayer and a life of the spirit-nurtured by the Sacraments of Confession and Communion, is not only a convert of the intellect-but also a convert of the will.
It takes a certain toughness to resist and combat sin in our lives. It’s not for the wishy-washy (there’s another one).
Sinners that are repulsed by goody two-shoes will also be critical if the person that is supposed to be a good catholic or holy person-is not behaving so good or holy. That will turn them away possibly at a most critical time of their lives.
Someone in need is always watching-so, strive to be good in the eyes of the Lord and always walk in his ways.
Remember it take bold determination and courage to be holy and saintly and just plain tough against a life of sin.
- Status