Saint Paul and Islam

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

Why do you want to see things in explicit language. In the Torah, God made the Sabbath, and Jesus said explicitly that He is the Lord of Sabbath. In another thread you get the basic idea of Trinity but in this thread you deny the Trinity. Jesus said that he was God indirectly in many verses in the gospel, but you deny that. Rather then discussing of how and why you deny that, you shift the discussion into comparison with gentile ideas of demigods.

I deny that Jesus and God are the same person since there is explicit language saying Jesus prayed to God, asked Him for help, etc. Christians always want to blow that off and keep saying Jesus is God but they won’t explain why God needs to ask Himself for help.

The Torah said thou shall not kill, and Muhammad killed people and make other killed people. That sound an easy way to compare that what you believe basically came from the Jews and later on Muhammad established reasons for his actions and put them in the book called Quran. If i compared this with criminals, I think I would have gone too far. But i would rather make no accusation as you do, and leave it to you.

Oh dear, I have gone too far out of topics anyway.

Moses killed the heathen to establish God’s Word for Isaac, Mohammed did the same to establish God’s Word for Ishmael. Arabia was filled with pagans who hated him for telling them to give up their idols so if he didn’t use violence Arabs would have remained pagan which wasn’t in God’s plan.

Same as the Christian Crusades and all that.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

Which Quran saved your belief? The one dictated by the angel Gabriel to so-claimed illiterate Muhammad or the one compiled by Uthman while he burnt the originals? That would be interesting

The Quran that exists today. Which Bible do you use, the real one or the one Gentiles stitched together? What kind of question is that.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The fatal problem here is explained as simply as 1,2,3:
1. Sura 3:3 affirms that the Gospel is true.
2. The Gospel clearly affirms that Christ died by means of crucifixion.
3. If Mohammed, or any of his followers, or other passages in the Quran deny that Christ died by means of crucifixion, then they are contradicting the Gospel and Sura 3:3.

The Quran is simply saying that crucifixion means being killed by the cross as a form of execution. Jesus was nailed to it alright, but God killed Jesus and took Jesus up to Himself. Therefore Jesus was not killed by the cross, nor by Romans and Jews, thus fulfilling Isaiah 42:4 of not being stopped by men, and also for the other prophecy did not need his legs broken to hasten death since God took him already. So both Christians and Muslims interpret the Quran wrong on that point.

In addition, there is absolutely no historical evidence to support your assumption “that Bible was handled early on by Roman Gentiles and they interpreted the Bible according to their patterns of belief which involved demigods.” Furthermore, the first Christians believed that Christ was God before the Gospel or any New Testament documents were written. Also, there is nothing in pagan beliefs that is similar to our Christology.

Who created the first Bible, Jews?

Now, all of this bears on my original question in an earlier post in that it tends to support my position that when Mohammed began teaching his new religion he forbade his followers, during this early period, from reading the Torah and the Gospel. The obvious reason for this prohibition is that Mohammed would lose followers because if they read the Bible they would see that his teachings contradict the Bible. We have just seen just one example above of how Mohammed’s teachings blatantly contradict the Gospel.

There’s no evidence Mohammed prohibited them.

To sum things up, what the evidence does show is not that Gospel is wrong when it teaches that Christ is God, and He died by means of Crucifixion, and rose from the dead, but instead, it shows that Mohammed took many of his teachings directly from the Torah and the Gospel, but he had to reject those parts of the Gospel and New Testament, such as Christ’s Divinity, that undermine Mohammed’s claim to be the greatest prophet of God.

The Bible never says Jesus is God, it says Jesus had to ask God to save his life, and that Jesus prayed to God. Not to himself.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

We do not say that God, as God, can die or did die. God took on a human body while remaining God. We call this the Incarnation of Christ. Christ is fully human and fully God. When we say that Jesus Christ was killed on the cross we are referring to His human self or nature that died on the cross, just as his human self previously suffered torture at the hands of the Roman soldiers.

The only difference is Muslims say God took the human flesh and spirit nature from a real man He created. God “took it on” by dwelling in that created man, and that man spoke God’s Word making him a prophet and God’s Word on earth.

We believe the same thing pretty much, that Jesus for all practical purposes is God on earth. We just explain it from a more Biblical and Jewish perspective, not a Gentile pagan incarnating one.

 

[itinerant1]

The Quran is simply saying that crucifixion means being killed by the cross as a form of execution. Jesus was nailed to it alright, but God killed Jesus and took Jesus up to Himself. Therefore Jesus was not killed by the cross, nor by Romans and Jews, thus fulfilling Isaiah 42:4 of not being stopped by men, and also for the other prophecy did not need his legs broken to hasten death since God took him already. So both Christians and Muslims interpret the Quran wrong on that point.

Who created the first Bible, Jews?

There’s no evidence Mohammed prohibited them.

The Bible never says Jesus is God, it says Jesus had to ask God to save his life, and that Jesus prayed to God. Not to himself.

Your interpretation of the New Testament is badly flawed. The Bible frequently refers to Jesus as God. Have you never read the Gospel of John where it refers to Jesus as God when it says “In the begining was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Furthermore, in John’s Gospel, when Jesus refers to Himself as “I AM” (or “I AM HE”), this is when the Jews accused Him of blasphemy. Why did they accuse Him of blasphemy? Because “I AM” is the name of God, the name that God revealed to Moses on Mt. Sinai. In other words, Jesus claimed to be the one, true God of the Hebrew Scriptures. The Jews correctly understood that this was what Jesus was saying and so some of them plotted to have Him killed.

I am shocked and suprised that you have overlooked such obvious references in the Gospel to Jesus as being God. In addition, there are many more references in the New Testament to the fact that Jesus is God.

Now before we discuss your faulty interpretation of Is. 42:4, and the peculiar idea that God killed Jesus, which finds no support in Scripture either, I would like to see your response to the texts in John’s Gospel that I have referred to. Let us discuss one thing at a time so as not to get bogged down.

Peace,

itinerant1 :tiphat:

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Your interpretation of the New Testament is badly flawed. The Bible frequently refers to Jesus as God. Have you never read the Gospel of John where it refers to Jesus as God when it says “In the begining was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Words and commands, not another deity.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Furthermore, in John’s Gospel, when Jesus refers to Himself as “I AM” (or “I AM HE”), this is when the Jews accused Him of blasphemy. Why did they accuse Him of blasphemy? Because “I AM” is the name of God, the name that God revealed to Moses on Mt. Sinai. In other words, Jesus claimed to be the one, true God of the Hebrew Scriptures. The Jews correctly understood that this was what Jesus was saying and so some of them plotted to have Him killed.

No Jesus wasn’t saying he was God, he was saying he was greater than Abraham as Melchizedek the High Priest who makes atonement for our sins. They wanted to kill Jesus same as all the other prophets claimed authority of God, making themselves God over the people.

John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Hebrews 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Hebrews 7:1-2 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

 

[dolphinlove]

FOA,
Question…
Do you EVER sleep?
I get on here during the day in my country, you always seem to be on, when i sleep and come back on, you always seem to be on then!
Are you the energizer bunny in disguise??

 

[itinerant1]

The only difference is Muslims say God took the human flesh and spirit nature from a real man He created. God “took it on” by dwelling in that created man, and that man spoke God’s Word making him a prophet and God’s Word on earth.

We believe the same thing pretty much, that Jesus for all practical purposes is God on earth. We just explain it from a more Biblical and Jewish perspective, not a Gentile pagan incarnating one.

There can be no comparison to the Christian belief in Jesus Christ as the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Trinity and the Islamic belief about the nature of Jesus.

The Islamic claim is very odd in that it implies that Christ’s followers such as the Apostles and others who encountered Him after His Resurrection were either deluded or lying about who Jesus really is. Furthermore, the Church that Christ founded consistently taught from the beggining that Jesus is God. This is so well documented that it is above dispute. And then 700 or so years later, along comes this guy named Mohammed and says the Church has been wrong about Jesus for all of these centuries.

Mohammed’s heretical assertion defies common sense.

itinerant1 :tiphat:

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Furthermore, the Church that Christ founded consistently taught from the beggining that Jesus is God.

Seems that early on power shifted from Jewish Christians to Gentile Christians and then the Roman Church, and when the Gentiles took over then started the Greek and Roman beliefs of demigods and incarnations similarly flavored as Osiris, Zeus, Mithras, etc.

All I see in the NT – stripped of all the Gentile tradition layered upon it – is that Jesus was born a human, then God’s Spirit entered into him and he spoke God’s Word as a powerful prophet, being God’s Word to the people.

 

[paarsurrey]

BBC documentaries are seldom relevant to the truths of Christianity. In fact, I don’t find television or the popular media to be a reliable source of information on anything of real importance. So, I respectfully decline your generous offer to share a popular media story about Jesus.
In matters of religion, let us stick to more reliable sources of information.
itinerant1 :tiphat:

Hi

No compulsion, but I would have liked if you would have seen it. No harm to see it if you are sure of yourself. I don’t think that just one documentry vidio would change your religions, that is not going to happen, but I don’t want to confuse you. I didn’t think your faith is so vulnerable. It was a secular source though. Rest in peace

Thanks

 

[karens1234]

The Bible never says Jesus is God, it says Jesus had to ask God to save his life, and that Jesus prayed to God. Not to himself.

"7 In the days when he [Jesus] was in the flesh, he offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, 5 and he was heard because of his reverence" (Hebrews 5: 7 - New Testament)

 

[karens1234]

“…the peculiar idea that God killed Jesus, which finds no support in Scripture either,…”

Are you of the opinion that God did not kill Jesus?
If so, then who killed Jesus (Christian G-d)?

 

[paarsurrey]

The people chosen as experts in this video are part of a group taht denies there were any miracles at all. The deny that Jesus was anything but a good teacher. They are not really Christian.
If this buried person can shed so much light on so many things, why can we not exhume him and see for ourselves? Open up the tomb, reverently, exhume the body, and examine it.

Hi

They are the secular people, sort of neutral impires.

Since it is a grave of Jesus, Indian Government won’t allow it. It is better if the Christians do it , after all it is said to belong to their Lord, and Muslims won’t prefer to do it. Moreover, the Western Christians are more experts in these techniques. The Christians, better the Catholics do it.

Please don’t mind it. I respect your religion. It is only a discussion and enquiry to know the truth for ourselves, nothing more nothing less.

Thanks

 

[itinerant1]

Seems that early on power shifted from Jewish Christians to Gentile Christians and then the Roman Church, and when the Gentiles took over then started the Greek and Roman beliefs of demigods and incarnations similarly flavored as Osiris, Zeus, Mithras, etc.

All I see in the NT – stripped of all the Gentile tradition layered upon it – is that Jesus was born a human, then God’s Spirit entered into him and he spoke God’s Word as a powerful prophet, being God’s Word to the people.

I’m sure that is, as you stated, all you see, but then again, that is precisely the problem. It seems that you are actually evading my questions with your needlessly repeated comments about Gentils and demigods. In response to the assertion that the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God, I have provided a counter-argument with Scriptural references from the Gospel of John. It seems that you are unable to respond specifically to the text. Instead you make vague assertions about Gentiles and demigods. I take it that what this means is that you are unable to defend your position.

On the other hand, if you think you can support your assumptions about what the Bible teaches regarding the nature of Christ, now is the time to do it. Otherwise, you are just beating the air with empty words. Pull out a Bible, cite textual references and get down to work with a real argument. I am not interested in anyone’s unsupported opinion. Show some real support and argument for your opinions, if you are able.

itinerant1 :tiphat:

 

[itinerant1]

Are you of the opinion that God did not kill Jesus?
If so, then who killed Jesus (Christian G-d)?

I think I already asnwered that in a previous post about the nature of Jesus Christ and his death on the cross. Certain Jews, including high priests among them, and the Romans killed Jesus. Jesus died by means of crucifixion, a common method of Roman execution.

itinerant1 :tiphat:

 

[paarsurrey]

This is so well documented that it is above dispute.

Hi

I don’t think it is well documented. There are no secular/neutral/rational historical documents with my friends here. As far as of its being “above dispute” is concerned, this matter has all along been under dispute right from the moment the event of Crucifixion was, if not earlier, being done.

On one hand there are Jews who say they executed Jesus (though I don’t believe them).

On the other there are some Catholics who would put the blame on Romans, just for nothing, though this is against the prophecy of Jesus.

Still there are other some Catholics who say “the Christians” are themselves responsible for it (something like that) so that Jesus could atone their sins, I don’t think that is correct.

Still more who would say Jesus did it voluntarily and willingly, though that makes it a suicidal attempt on part of Jesus, I don’t believe that.

So my friend, the matter has been under dispute at all times since it happening.

Till the man came who resolved it getting a WordofTruth from GodAllahYHWH directly.

I may clear it here that we Muslims believe OTBible, NTBible, Moses, Jesus and Mary only because Quran has mentioned about them.

I love Moses, Jesus and Mary.

Thanks

 

[itinerant1]

Hi

No compulsion, but I would have liked if you would have seen it. No harm to see it if you are sure of yourself. I don’t think that just one documentry vidio would change your religions, that is not going to happen, but I don’t want to confuse you. I didn’t think your faith is so vulnerable. It was a secular source though. Rest in peace

Thanks

The problem is that you are side-tracking from the original discussion with your pet video. I responded to your interpretation about Jesus being born, killed, etc with a detailed explanation. The right thing for you to have done is stay on track by assenting or dissenting from what I said. I either showed that your beliefs are a complete misunderstanding of what the Bible teaches or I did not. Instead, you avoid the issue you brought up by posting a link to a video.

I suspect that in the last analysis you cannot defend what you say or believe. All you can do is state your opinion and then run and hide behind another issue. Either get back on track from where we left off or debate with someone else, instead.

Peace,

itinerant1 :tiphat:

 

[paarsurrey]

Are you of the opinion that God did not kill Jesus?
If so, then who killed Jesus (Christian G-d)?

Hi

Nevertheless a good question. itinerant1 should answer it, I think.

Thanks

 

[FaithofAbraham]

It seems that you are actually evading my questions with your needlessly repeated comments about Gentils and demigods.

You wanted to know about John 1:1 and John 8:58. So I explained that John 1:1 is just talking about God’s commands to make light, not a little man-god called God’s Word.

And John 8:58 is Jesus talking about being greater than Abraham as Melchizedek, now we all have to go through Jesus for him to make atonement for us with God, just as the Aaron priests did. Jesus wasn’t saying he was God at all.

Not sure what I haven’t answered.

 

[paarsurrey]

The problem is that you are side-tracking from the original discussion with your pet video. I responded to your interpretation about Jesus being born, killed, etc with a detailed explanation. The right thing for you to have done is stay on track by assenting or dissenting from what I said. I either showed that your beliefs are a complete misunderstanding of what the Bible teaches or I did not. Instead, you avoid the issue you brought up by posting a link to a video.
I suspect that in the last analysis you cannot defend what you say or believe. All you can do is state your opinion and then run and hide behind another issue. Either get back on track from where we left off or debate with someone else, instead.
Peace,
itinerant1 :tiphat:

Hi

I appreciate your response. Naturally I don’t have to follow you unnecessrily, I have my own free will. I am sending posts, so I am there.

Just one simple question. Have you seen the vidio from a secular/neutral source ( The BBC Documentary ). First see it then please give your comments. You are friend. You mentioned proofs from Quran, Bible and History, so I started from history, my choice.

Please don’t mind. I respect your religion.

Thanks